Skinsinparadise Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 JLC asked around on this, PFF cap guy talked about this -- the thought is you can't have 4 guys on the D line making 20-30 million and build out the rest of the roster ans something has to give. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said: JLC asked around on this, PFF cap guy talked about this -- the thought is you can't have 4 guys on the D line making 20-30 million and build out the rest of the roster ans something has to give. they did this to themselves. You never invest this much into 1 position 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mh86 Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 5 hours ago, skinny21 said: Who would you trade? I’m assuming Payne, Gibson and Sweat… anyone else in mind? Maybe WJ3 if someone would give up something. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrepDC Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: JLC asked around on this, PFF cap guy talked about this -- the thought is you can't have 4 guys on the D line making 20-30 million and build out the rest of the roster ans something has to give. Because we need to save that money for bad fit Free Agents? This roster needs to be filled out through the draft so resigning our couple of competent players isn't a problem regardless of position, in my opinion. I know I'm in the minority on this, but I don't see who else on this team needs to be paid, and the salary cap will continue to rise. This is why a smart FO resigns them before their value skyrockets. Clock is ticking on Payne and Sweat. We have only paid 1 DL and that was a reasonable deal so idk why we are in such a rush to let our talent walk. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: JLC asked around on this, PFF cap guy talked about this -- the thought is you can't have 4 guys on the D line making 20-30 million and build out the rest of the roster ans something has to give. Keep them all! It will be tough, but I’m all for it especially if they get out of the Wentz business. Stagger contracts and keep it moving. Go cheap in the secondary— let Jackson and Fuller go. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 (edited) 25 minutes ago, wit33 said: Keep them all! It will be tough, but I’m all for it especially if they get out of the Wentz business. Stagger contracts and keep it moving. Go cheap in the secondary— let Jackson and Fuller go. Outside of Curl (potentially Holcomb*), not sure who else might command a decent contract before Allen’s is up? So, to your point, if Wentz’s money is off the books, re-signing the other dlinemen seems doable. And yes, stagger the contracts so it’s not 20+mil for each (at the same time). *not sure I’d bring him back, and certainly not for significant money Edited October 22, 2022 by skinny21 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method man Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 6 hours ago, skinny21 said: Outside of Curl (potentially Holcomb*), not sure who else might command a decent contract before Allen’s is up? So, to your point, if Wentz’s money is off the books, re-signing the other dlinemen seems doable. And yes, stagger the contracts so it’s not 20+mil for each (at the same time). *not sure I’d bring him back, and certainly not for significant money If St Juste proves to be a starter, he will command $10M+ a year 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 16 hours ago, wit33 said: Keep them all! It will be tough, but I’m all for it especially if they get out of the Wentz business. Stagger contracts and keep it moving. Go cheap in the secondary— let Jackson and Fuller go. Agree, getting rid of Wentz would be the key, with him I can see it being hard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 16 hours ago, IrepDC said: Because we need to save that money for bad fit Free Agents? This roster needs to be filled out through the draft so resigning our couple of competent players isn't a problem regardless of position, in my opinion. I know I'm in the minority on this, but I don't see who else on this team needs to be paid, and the salary cap will continue to rise. This is why a smart FO resigns them before their value skyrockets. Clock is ticking on Payne and Sweat. We have only paid 1 DL and that was a reasonable deal so idk why we are in such a rush to let our talent walk. I am not a cap math wiz so I don't really know. I do know the PFF guy thinks its crazy to basically dedicate potentially 100 million dollars to one spot, any spot. Granted PFF is a bit biased, they think trying to dominate the league via a dominate D line is passe. I'd say at a minimum the killer D line hasn't brought prosperity to this team, yet. Some personnel guys have also said the same thing, they think 3 D lineman is plenty but not for 4. That made a recent JLC article where the referenced the 49ers having the same issue so they traded Buckner. If I was a cap wiz type I'd have a strong opinion but I am not. I do agree with @wit33 that a cheap QB allows this to happen, not so much a 28 million dollar QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 Just give Payne his contact. Our DT combination of Allen and Payne is significantly better than what our first round DE’s bring. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 17 hours ago, skinny21 said: Outside of Curl (potentially Holcomb*), not sure who else might command a decent contract before Allen’s is up? So, to your point, if Wentz’s money is off the books, re-signing the other dlinemen seems doable. And yes, stagger the contracts so it’s not 20+mil for each (at the same time). *not sure I’d bring him back, and certainly not for significant money My desire is to have good to great players, if guys on DLINE prove to be good to great, you keep them. The logic you let go of a good/great player to spend speculative money elsewhere is wild. If the Dline are all studs on and off the field, I much rather resign our own versus giving another 10mil per year contract to a DB. 10 hours ago, method man said: If St Juste proves to be a starter, he will command $10M+ a year Draft another St. Juste and keep it moving. 1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said: I am not a cap math wiz so I don't really know. I do know the PFF guy thinks its crazy to basically dedicate potentially 100 million dollars to one spot, any spot. Granted PFF is a bit biased, they think trying to dominate the league via a dominate D line is passe. I'd say at a minimum the killer D line hasn't brought prosperity to this team, yet. Some personnel guys have also said the same thing, they think 3 D lineman is plenty but not for 4. That made a recent JLC article where the referenced the 49ers having the same issue so they traded Buckner. If I was a cap wiz type I'd have a strong opinion but I am not. I do agree with @wit33 that a cheap QB allows this to happen, not so much a 28 million dollar QB. I’m with you on not being a cap wiz, so I’m not bullish, but the idea of letting go good players in the trenches to keep Wentz, Fuller, or Jackson types, just because it’s another position is mind-boggling. Ive become increasingly open to idea of keeping them, due to being completely out on paying big money to other teams dbs and dbs in general. Extreme high variance in level of play year to year makes it not worth it. I rather be the team thats about to get William Jackson next season at $3-5mil or whatever, similar to what we did with Darby. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 50 minutes ago, wit33 said: I’m with you on not being a cap wiz, so I’m not bullish, but the idea of letting go good players in the trenches to keep Wentz, Fuller, or Jackson types, just because it’s another position is mind-boggling. Ive become increasingly open to idea of keeping them, due to being completely out on paying big money to other teams dbs and dbs in general. Extreme high variance in level of play year to year makes it not worth it. I rather be the team thats about to get William Jackson next season at $3-5mil or whatever, similar to what we did with Darby. Yeah the big money to CB FA's for years now has been a disaster, Chris Culliver, Norman, Jackson. And like you I am out on Wentz at 28 milliion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FootballZombie Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 I can see the argument about investing too much in a small space, and how your better off spreading the love across the roster, but I feel like that is both the "perfect world" scenario and sometimes deals in unknowns rather than knowns. If I can have a super strong, proven unit that has already shown the ability to lift the team, I have no problem throwing un-proportionate money at it vs the idea that we "might" get a stronger roster by spreading the money around and getting some FAs who may or may not hit/fit. I don't think the D-line has reached that level yet, but if they do turn into 4 players who I already know fit, work and win, why would you mess w/ the sauce? If this D-line shows me they can be a constant disruptive force that I can rely on week in and week out screw the perfect world roster balance scenario. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 6 hours ago, FootballZombie said: I can see the argument about investing too much in a small space, and how your better off spreading the love across the roster, but I feel like that is both the "perfect world" scenario and sometimes deals in unknowns rather than knowns. I’d agree, especially in our circumstances. We can’t attract high end FA at the minute so we need to try to retain all the best talent we have on the roster and draft well. I’d pay both DTs as we are also yet to see if either DE in Sweat and Young are worthy of big money second contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said: I am not a cap math wiz so I don't really know. I do know the PFF guy thinks its crazy to basically dedicate potentially 100 million dollars to one spot, any spot. Granted PFF is a bit biased, they think trying to dominate the league via a dominate D line is passe. I'd say at a minimum the killer D line hasn't brought prosperity to this team, yet. Some personnel guys have also said the same thing, they think 3 D lineman is plenty but not for 4. That made a recent JLC article where the referenced the 49ers having the same issue so they traded Buckner. If I was a cap wiz type I'd have a strong opinion but I am not. I do agree with @wit33 that a cheap QB allows this to happen, not so much a 28 million dollar QB. I spend a whole lot of time studying the cap, what teams do with the cap, how different teams manage the cap, etc. I wouldn't call myself a wiz, but I find the business and contractual side of the NFL as fascinating as the on-the-field stuff. So I spend a lot of time looking at it, reading about it, and listening to folks about it. Here's my $.02: - In some ways, the cap is a myth and you can move things around and do whatever the hell you want to for quite a while. Will you have to pay the piper eventually? Yeah. But you can put it off for 7-10 years if you're smart. - However, it's completely stupid to do that unless you're making a run. You can't BUILD a team that way. But you can go "all in" that way. The Rams did it because they had enough of the structure they could go "all-in." Now, if they do have to blow it all up, take the cap hits, and move on, well, at least they have the SB already. - It would be really stupid for the Commanders to do what the Rams (Packers, Saints, Raiders and a few others) have done because they don't have the success or foundation to make it worth it. - Offense wins games. And championships. In today's NFL. For the most part, the teams that do "cap magic" to get a bunch of top-line players under the cap do it on the offensive side of the ball. The Rams have Ramsey and Donald on defense, they're kindof the outlier. But they also did it for Stafford. - The Young injury is a HUGE ENORMOUS wrench in the works. They're going to have to decide whether or not to pick up his 5th year option this off-season. With 1 good season, 1 bad-season which was ended short due to injury, and then whatever this season is, which won't be a full healthy season for sure. And since you have no idea how he's going to respond to the injury, it puts more pressure on you to sign Montez Sweat this off-season. Young could literally never be the same. And might take himself out of the "big contract" discussion. Or he could be phenomenal. There's just no telling. - I actually don't care about cap percentage by position at all. It's somewhat irrelevant and an academic exercise. You pay good players who contribute to wins. - However, what is relevant is where you are spending your resources overall. In today's NFL, you want to spend the majority of your resources, both cap and draft capital, on offense. Because good offense almost always beats good defense right now. What you need on defense is not to suck uncontrollably. You don't need a top-5 defense. You need a middle-of-the-pack defense, and a top 5-10 offense. Also, you need a good DC who can put together a competent D with some good parts and some spare parts. - So that brings us to the DL, and if they can/should afford to pay all 4 guys. I think they absolutely can. Should they? I'm not so sure. I think one thing they have proved is if they have one good edge rusher, they can cobble together the other side with a bunch of guys. As long as the interior pressure is there. They don't need 2 highly paid, elite edge rushers. But if they spend a lot of resources up-front by re-signing Payne, they are committing significant assets to the defensive side of the ball. - The Young injury is just so tough. IF Young was going to play at the level of his rookie season or better, I'd actually trade Sweat right now, re-sign Payne, and keep Young + a young rotation + Allen/Payne/Mathis as the core DL. Payne will cost less than Sweat. And if he plays at the level he's been playing this year, him pared with Allen is actually really helping the edge rushers. The other interesting thing is how your cap and your draft are intertwined. It's all about assets, and how you use them. I'd argue more than the cap situation, they've just spent WAY too much high-draft capital on defense over the past 6 years: Allen, Ryan Anderson, Payne, Sweat, Young, Davis, Mathis all in the first 2 rounds. That's a first round pick 5 of 6 years, + 2 second round picks. That's just way, way, way too much. And by doing that, it then effects when those players, all on the defensive side of the ball, are going to need second contracts. They need to spread the wealth more, and invest more on offense. As I've mentioned, the $28m for a QB is basically irrelevant against the cap. If they actually wanted to, they could have re-signed Scherff, McLaurin, kept Flowers, signed another top-end TE and LB. They would have had to toss some of the money into voided years, but if the players work out, you extend them anyway, and convert the voided years into actual years, and put money further down the road. (I don't think I would have paid Scherff the deal he got, but hindsight being 20/20, maybe I would reconsider that.) Now we get into the "did Dan put them on a budget so they couldn't do it?" I don't honestly care for the context of this conversation. The fact is they COULD have done it with "cap math." And they still wouldn't have been in a terrible cap situation. Of all of the PFF guys who I think go on and flap their gums to try and sound smart and actually have no idea what the hell they are talking about, the cap guy is not one of them. I actually think he mostly gets it, and has some really good points. I think he's a little stuck on the position value thing, though. But that's a difference of opinion with valid points on both sides. I'm more stuck on getting good players who help you win whatever position they play and overall roster construction. As an aside, I think the next big shift you're going to see in terms of cap and draft value is interior OL is going to start to rise tremendously. Over the past 10 years, interior DL has morphed from mostly run-stuffing (with some key notable exceptions) to either balanced or pass-rushing specialists from the interior. Instead of being big guys who just basically try to establish the LOS and not be moved, they are now much more involved in pass-rush and interior pressure. The natural reaction to that is going to be the over-valuing of interior OL, both in the draft and in contract value, because the shortest line to a QB is straight up the middle. You're going to see more and more guards/centers taken early, and paid big money. The corresponding de-valuing of a position is going to be the TE. WRs are so much more versatile now, and there is less of an emphasis on the running game, I think you're going to see TEs continue to be somewhat devalued, unless they are the truly elite guys, (Kelce) who will always be massively valuable. It's going to be a WR/down field passing league. In order to pull that off, QB, protection and WRs are going to be critical, and RBs and TEs are going to become less valuable. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemaskins Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 So just heard from a Redskins insider (my dad) that we traded Payne for 2 2s, WJ3, and Antonio Gibson (to Buffalo). Anybody got real details of compensation and teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor_Nutter_Butter Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 19 minutes ago, lovemaskins said: So just heard from a Redskins insider (my dad) that we traded Payne for 2 2s, WJ3, and Antonio Gibson (to Buffalo). Anybody got real details of compensation and teams? Bro. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins 2021 Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) I think we could get two first round picks for Sweat? Panthers were offered 2 first for B. Burns. I think it was Kansas City? If we are not going to pay Sweat 2 first round picks may be worth moving him. Resign Payne and Young and replace Sweat with one of first rounders. Gibson or McKissic to Buffalo would make sense. They wanted to sign McKissic in off season. We probably get thrid for Gibson. Edited October 23, 2022 by Redskins 2021 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrepDC Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 19 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: I am not a cap math wiz so I don't really know. I do know the PFF guy thinks its crazy to basically dedicate potentially 100 million dollars to one spot, any spot. Granted PFF is a bit biased, they think trying to dominate the league via a dominate D line is passe. I'd say at a minimum the killer D line hasn't brought prosperity to this team, yet. Some personnel guys have also said the same thing, they think 3 D lineman is plenty but not for 4. That made a recent JLC article where the referenced the 49ers having the same issue so they traded Buckner. If I was a cap wiz type I'd have a strong opinion but I am not. I do agree with @wit33 that a cheap QB allows this to happen, not so much a 28 million dollar QB. I completely acknowledge the other side of the coin, and I don't think it's a ridiculous perspective, but here's my thinking: This team needs something, anything, as a foundation to build on. If we hit on all 4 DL, let that be the foundation we build from. Here is Allen's contract. If we can use bonus money to lower the cap numbers for the first few years of each contract, like Allen's, we can manipulate the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simmsy Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 We're in trouble... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 16 hours ago, Redskins 2021 said: I think we could get two first round picks for Sweat? Panthers were offered 2 first for B. Burns. I think it was Kansas City? If we are not going to pay Sweat 2 first round picks may be worth moving him. Resign Payne and Young and replace Sweat with one of first rounders. Sweat remains largely invisible. I’d take any kind of day 2 pick for him at the minute. Ultimately our DL strength is in the interior, give Payne his deal then go from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philibusters Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 (edited) On 10/24/2022 at 3:26 AM, Est.1974 said: Sweat remains largely invisible. I’d take any kind of day 2 pick for him at the minute. Ultimately our DL strength is in the interior, give Payne his deal then go from there. I thought Sweat was pretty dominant against the Titans. I thought in general, the D-Line played good against the Packers. The gameplan was to blitz very little and to depend on the front four to get pressure. Since we were not blitzing the goal was more to get consistent pressure than to get a lot of sacks, though obviously the coaching staff would have happily taken the sacks. And for the most part, the D-Line accomplished its goal. In terms of getting two first rounders for Sweat, yes I would take that in a heartbeat. But that doesn't sound realistic to me. Two first rounders for Brian Burns doesn't sound realistic to me. I know Adam Schefter reported it but you wonder if maybe the Panthers put that out there to gather some buzz because it seems a bit high for Burns. Burns is a one dimenisonal player. He is an elite or close to elite pass rusher, who is meh against the run (he had a 43.8 PFF grade against the run last year, though this year he is doing significantly better at 68.7) . The top top players are elite against both the pass and run (guys like Von Miller and Khalil Mack in their prime, or Myles Garrett now). I don't think Burns is quite as good as a pass rusher as those guys and he is nowhere near as good against the run. And this is the last year of his rookie contract (though the fifth year option was exercised). To me, Burns might be worth 1 first round pick because he'll be reasonable priced next year with his fifth year option, but once you have to pay him market, he not worth more than a second day pick in my opinion. Edited October 25, 2022 by philibusters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlwaysBeRedskins2Me Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 Danny Johnson is back on the active roster. Yay. Woohoo. Hot dawg. Hard to contain my excitement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderInTheRye Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 On 10/23/2022 at 10:26 AM, Redskins 2021 said: I think we could get two first round picks for Sweat? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 On 10/21/2022 at 7:22 PM, skinny21 said: Who would you trade? I’m assuming Payne, Gibson and Sweat… anyone else in mind? There are some teams that need WR and as usual team really need LTs. I would see what Samuel and Lucas (or maybe even Leno) could fetch. Jackson, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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