The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[kingdaddy]

So for those counting, there's a legit chance that the following QB's will be available by either trade or FA this offseason?

Aaron Rodgers

DeShawn Watson

Jimmy Garrapolo

Russell Wilson

Hot Rod Huntley

Dan Jones

Ted Bridgewater

Mitch Trubisky

Marcus Marriota

 

Strong chance that one of these guys ends up on our roster?

Per Sirius NFL Radio, Russell Wilson has already waived his no-trade clause for 4 teams including NYG and Philly, not WFT. He seems unlikely as does Rodgers. 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

11 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

So for those counting, there's a legit chance that the following QB's will be available by either trade or FA this offseason?

Aaron Rodgers

DeShawn Watson

Jimmy Garrapolo

Russell Wilson

Hot Rod Huntley

Dan Jones

Ted Bridgewater

Mitch Trubisky

Marcus Marriota

 

Strong chance that one of these guys ends up on our roster?

Per Sirius NFL Radio, Russell Wilson has already waived his no-trade clause for 4 teams including NYG and Philly, not WFT. He seems unlikely as does Rodgers. 

 

If you reference my post from a day or 2 ago, I said there were 15 veteran (3+ years of service) QBs who deserve one of the 32 jobs (list 1) and about 8 who were in year 1 or 2 and were being evaluated, list 2. 

 

and my statement was if you didn’t have one of guys on list 1 or list 2, you had to find a way to get a list 1 guy or draft a guy to add to list 2.

 

the only guys on list 1 from your list are Rodgers, Watson (though I disqualified him) and Wilson.  
 

If you can’t get one of those 2, then it’s pointless getting one of the others. You stick with TH and Allen and draft a guy.  

[Thinking Skins]

Just going to give my boy Nick Mullins props tonight. He didn't kill it but he didn't embarrass himself. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Thinking Skins

[tomwvr]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

My main thing is that I'm weary of giving up draft capital just to be active in the QB market. One of the reasons I go so hard for the lower ground QBs is because I somewhat strongly believe that the development of QBs is they're good enough. That's what GB did all through the 90s and then they'd trade the guy away for picks and try again. But they had a great coaching team to develop the QBs. I think Brunell, Hassekbeck and Brooks were all under that coaching staff. 

 

But if a QB is worth a first round grade and the separation between him and the next guy is enough, then yeah go for it. But if it's a Campbell or Ramsey or Haskins then miss me with that. 

 

I think the draft is too special, especially early picks. QBs don't get traded. But neither do starting LTs or edge rushers. We've had problems finding a FS since Taylor. We haven't had a good MLB since Fletcher. I want to be going after generational talent in the first. Not just a guy because we need a QB. 

 

Its not that I believe we can win it all with a mid level QB, but I think that most QBs who become good become mid level. Once we figure a guy is at his ceiling we should look to replace him, but not but him a one way ticket out of town. Just keep him going until we see somebody better, even if it is a mid rounder with a higher ceiling. 

 

I was advocating for Mond in the draft because I thought he was less of a risk compared to the guys in the first because of his playing experience in college. He may not have the ceiling of those guys but he's not as raw (in my opinion). Minnesota drafted him to sit behind Cousins (who is at his ceiling). Now he may be put into a situation like Hurts was last year when they let Cousins walk. Hurts is another example of my philosophy. 

 

I really like the UDFAs because they are the ultimate prize in terms of draft capital but to me it's all about draft economics. I hated the 2005 draft because NOBODY had Carlos Rogers above Aaron Rodgers. And nobody had Jason Campbell above Aaron Rodgers but it seems we wanted nothing to do with AR and picked those guys. AR, who was supposed to be 1 overall, dropped to our pick and I thought it was good value because I didn't see another player that had his potential. This year, if we had a top ten pick I'd probably be for Parsons (but I didn't like the baggage) or Surtain. I liked Davis the Davis pick but thought he may be too raw.

 

It's all about value to me and I feel that unless it's a rare situation, QBs are rarely of value in the first. Given they may be if they're the Herbert of the draft but was Tua a value pick? Lance? Haskins (I wanted Brian Burns that year). 

 

But I stopped getting excited about this because I can't control them. It's more fun to just root for the guys we have because we're more likely to keep them and have them in some role. So I really hope Heinicke can develop and fix the problems he's seen in his game this year. 

About the same way I feel. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

Just going to give my boy Nick Mullins props tonight. He didn't kill it but he didn't embarrass himself. 

 I watched it. 147 yards. He was OK.

 

Lot of QBs out there who can give some OK performances if that’s the goal post.

 

My biggest beef with Mullens is he more than any QB last year helped give the vibe that our defense could be elite.  I think that arrogance crept into our early season woes this season.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Kiper-McShay Q & A

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2022/insider/story/_/id/32796373/nfl-draft-2022-biggest-questions-kiper-mcshay-preview-top-prospects-qb-class-names-know

Is there a quarterback in this class worthy of being the No. 1 overall pick?

 

Kiper: No, there's not. This class is much different from 2021, when quarterbacks went with the first three picks. I don't see one who is a lock to be a high-level NFL starter; my highest-graded QB is at No. 20 overall on my new Big Board. Now, teams always overdraft quarterbacks, but there are still big questions about the top guys in this class.

The four signal-callers in contention to be the first off the board are Kenny Pickett (Pitt), Desmond Ridder (Cincinnati), Matt Corral (Ole Miss) and Malik Willis (Liberty).

So who's your top-ranked quarterback, Todd?

McShay: Yeah, it's Pickett, who comes in at No. 15 in my new rankings. For context, Mac Jones was No. 15 on my final 2021 board, and he was my fifth-ranked QB. There's still time, but I just don't see a top-10-caliber QB.

That said, Pickett gets through his progressions quickly and holds safeties with his eyes, and there's some second-reaction ability there too. His 4,319 passing yards and 42 passing TDs are both top-five numbers in the nation. Corral is right behind him at No. 16, with Willis down at No. 24. Corral gets the ball out so cleanly, and he's a threat to beat you with his legs. And Willis is a playmaker, but the 12 interceptions this season raise an eyebrow. And Mel, I'm a little lower on Ridder than you. I just don't see consistent ball placement there.

Is there a wild-card QB who could rise?

Kiper: Bailey Zappe has put up incredible numbers at Western Kentucky -- 56 touchdown passes, 11 picks and 5,546 yards -- and showed off his field vision and accuracy at all levels of the field. He's going to the Senior Bowl, and I could see him rising into the Day 2 discussion if he performs well in practice there.

It's early, but which teams could target QBs in Round 1?

McShay: There are roughly seven teams that should be looking, and at least three more that could absolutely join the mix. It's a glaring need for Washington (despite a nice run for Taylor Heinicke), Matt Ryan isn't getting any younger in Atlanta, and the Steelers should be thinking QB with Ben Roethlisberger not expected to return. Will the Lions set aside a plethora of other needs to get a QB to build around? Has Carolina already seen enough from Sam Darnold long-term? Teddy Bridgewater isn't pushing the ball down the field for the Broncos, and the Saints have a decision to make around Jameis Winston and Taysom Hill.

Three more teams to watch over the next few months: Houston, Seattle and Philadelphia. What will come of the Deshaun Watson situation for the Texans? Will Russell Wilson return to the Seahawks, or could they land some first-round picks in a deal and go get a young QB to build around? And what will the Eagles do with their three Day 1 selections? Jalen Hurts has made significant strides, but Philly needs to decide if he's the long-term answer.

That's a lot of teams, which means we'll likely see at least a few quarterbacks get overdrafted in Round 1.

OK, make the call now: How many quarterbacks will go in Round 1?

Kiper: I'll say four -- Pickett, Ridder, Corral and Willis. Even if none goes in the top 10, lots of teams need a franchise guy, as Todd said. Remember that fifth-year options go only to first-round picks, and it's an important tool for teams trying to get that extra year of a young quarterback. That's what Baltimore did in 2018 when it traded back into Round 1 to take Lamar Jackson. We could see a couple of late-first-round QBs in 2022.

 

McShay: This is going to sound ever bolder now, but I'll say that Sam Howell will go ahead of Ridder and sneak into the first round as the final of four Day 1 signal-callers. Howell regressed a little this season, but his touch and timing are still plus traits, and he can fit the ball into tight windows. I really like the way he manipulates coverages with his eyes and gets the ball out quickly. I'm just not seeing consistency when it comes to accuracy for Ridder, though I do think he's an early Day 2 pick.

Kiper: Let's just see, Todd. The good thing is that it sounds like Howell could be at the Senior Bowl, too, so we'll see them compete side by side.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

Wonder what it would take to move back into the bottom of the first and snag Howell if he’s still on the board.

 

That would be a good get and likely wouldn’t crush us draft compensation wise

[DWinzit]

I would say Zappe's performance Saturday probably solidified him a day 2 selection

 

It is hard to see any of these QB's go top 5. 

 

I would love grabbing Howell or Ridder at the end of the first round. They could replace Allen, learn and compete with TH and leave us with draft capital to improve the roster

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Wonder what it would take to move back into the bottom of the first and snag Howell if he’s still on the board.

 

That would be a good get and likely wouldn’t crush us draft compensation wise

 

Judging by the deal for Sweat, the following years 2nd rounder along with the current one.

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[skins island connection]

Wilson is near the end of his career, why throw a bunch of money his way or give up draft picks for a QB who will be under center with a cane soon.

Acquiring Wilson is just kicking the can down the road, and not that far I might add...

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

I would say Zappe's performance Saturday probably solidified him a day 2 selection

 

It is hard to see any of these QB's go top 5. 

 

I would love grabbing Howell or Ridder at the end of the first round. They could replace Allen, learn and compete with TH and leave us with draft capital to improve the roster

 

My gut is Howell ends up going somewhere between 15-25.    Ridder, too.  With the caveat that its early in the draft process, the Senior Bowl, interviews/combine tends to shake things up some.

 

I have a tough time shaking the two things that concern me about Ridder -- accuracy issues and decison making.  Maybe because I was so down on Rosen and Darnold when I studied them when they hit the trade market.  Those were the same two issues those 2 QBs had.

 

But I waffle some too because Ridder IMO has really high intangibles and really good mobility.  

 

Ridder is sort of my Drew Lock from 2019 with Lock back then I liked some aspects of his game, hated other aspects.  I tried to talk myself into him but I had a hard time doing it.  I went back and forth.  I could see a narrative where he succeeds but equally see a narrative where he failed.  I am going through a similar dance with Ridder.  To some extent ditto with Carson Strong for entirely different reasons. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Rex Tomb]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

My gut is Howell ends up going somewhere between 15-25.    Ridder, too.  With the caveat that its early in the draft process, the Senior Bowl, interviews/combine tends to shake things up some.

 

I have a tough time shaking the two things that concern me about Ridder -- accuracy issues and decison making.  Maybe because I was so down on Rosen and Darnold when I studied them when they hit the trade market.  Those were the same two issues those 2 QBs had.

 

But I waffle some too because Ridder IMO has really high intangibles and really good mobility.  

 

Ridder is sort of my Drew Lock from 2019 with Lock back then I liked some aspects of his game, hated other aspects.  I tried to talk myself into him but I had a hard time doing it.  I went back and forth.  I could see a narrative where he succeeds but equally see a narrative where he failed.  I am going through a similar dance with Ridder.  To some extent ditto with Carson Strong for entirely different reasons. 

Without fail, I think several of those guys end up going in the top 10.  Last year, around this time, the buzz was Zach Wilson could be available for our spot in the draft but by mid-April he was a top 5 pick, maybe even #1 overall.  The amount of hype for QBs as you get closer to the draft is certifiably insane.

[DWinzit]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

My gut is Howell ends up going somewhere between 15-25.    Ridder, too.  With the caveat that its early in the draft process, the Senior Bowl, interviews/combine tends to shake things up some.

 

I have a tough time shaking the two things that concern me about Ridder -- accuracy issues and decison making.  Maybe because I was so down on Rosen and Darnold when I studied them when they hit the trade market.  Those were the same two issues those 2 QBs had.

 

But I waffle some too because Ridder IMO has really high intangibles and really good mobility.  

 

Ridder is sort of my Drew Lock from 2019 with Lock I liked some aspects of his game, hated other aspects.  I tried to talk myself into him but I had a hard time doing it.  I could see a narrative where he succeeds but equally see a narrative where he failed.  I am going through a similar dance with Ridder.  To some extent ditto with Carson Strong for entirely different reasons. 

Howell has been the guy I like the best since last year.  The idea of getting him at the latter part of the first round would be awesome

 

I understand the Ridder concern with some inconsistency. Like you, I paid a lot of attention to him last year as well as this year. He has shown improvement in all areas of his game this year and has all the intangibles. I do expect him to have a rough Cotton Bowl as they are way overmatched, but look forward to see how he handles the game. He is such a good leader.

 

I never liked any of the players you draw comparisons to, always found Lock overrated.

 

I meant to say in my earlier post that I think Willis moved himself up in the first round with Saturdays performance. We will be gone by 15.

[Conn]

Willis is the type of guy I could see our FO falling in love with and trading up to around ~8-10 for to jump other teams if necessary. I don’t think they wait and let the draft fall to them when we’re in such dire need of QB talent and it’s one of those drafts where nobody will know what the consensus preferences are between similarly ranked (but not top-5) prospects. They’ll be willing to burn some draft capital to get their guy IF they have one, and I think they will. Ron is getting to the point in his tenure where he and his FO need to put their stamp on someone, invest what it takes to get them, and then surround them with everything they can and develop them. Maybe it won’t be Willis but I’d wager it’ll be someone. I just hope it’s someone toolsy with athleticism, instincts, and a good head on his shoulders, if it can’t be a premium blue chipper. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Ball Security]

52 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I sense that it’s a lock he’s going there.  Hopefully it costs them both of their 2022 firsts.

[Warhead36]

59 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Good. I hope they put both of their top 10 1sts into getting him. He's on the wrong side of 30 and isn't going to have a great supporting cast in New York.

[DWinzit]

2 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

I sense that it’s a lock he’s going there.  Hopefully it costs them both of their 2022 firsts.

At least those 2 picks hopefully!

 

The Giants would be nuts not to put together a good package and hope they want Danny Dimes included.

 

If he said he wanted to go play in Washington and WFT didn't attempt to get him, I'd be ticked

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Good. I hope they put both of their top 10 1sts into getting him. He's on the wrong side of 30 and isn't going to have a great supporting cast in New York.

 

He's 33, not ancient for today's NFL.  They'd go from maybe having the worst clutch QB in the NFL to the best.  Count me as not excited for us if they get Wilson.  Daniel Jones has weapons.  Granted they've had injuries, a ton of them.  But Shepard, Golladay, Toney, Engram, Rudolph, Slaton, Ross -- not bad.   Barkley has been dissapointing but when healthy not bad.  They've swung and missed too much on the O line.  Andre Thomas though is having a good year.  I think changing up from their weak line at QB to a Hall of Fame QB likely means they have a better team than us depending on what we do at QB.  We barely beat them at full strength earlier this season and that's with Jones.  If they had a healthy Wilson that game, they'd likely have beaten us by a good margin IMO.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

He's 33, not ancient for today's NFL.  They'd go from maybe having the worst clutch QB in the NFL to the best.  Count me as not excited for us if they get Wilson.  Daniel Jones has weapons.  Granted they've had injuries, a ton of them.  But Shepard, Golladay, Toney, Engram, Rudolph, Slaton, Ross -- not bad.   Barkley has been dissapointing but when healthy not bad.  They've swung and missed too much on the O line.  Andre Thomas though is having a good year.  I think changing up from their weak line at QB to a Hall of Fame QB likely means they have a better team than us depending on what we do at QB.  We barely beat them at full strength earlier this season and that's with Jones.  If they had a healthy Wilson that game, they'd likely have beaten us by a good margin IMO.

We'll see. Wilson is a talent but his game won't age well. He relies on mobility and making big throws downfield, but he's not gonna have a Lockett or Metcalf on the Giants. None of those guys you mentioned are  very good except Barkley but he's a RB that's already been hit with injuries, he won't age well either. Their OL is atrocious. And on top of all that, they'd have to blow two top 10 picks which can be used to retool the entire team AND give up a chunk of cap space to get him.

 

They get Wilson and they'll be stuck in purgatory for the next 3+ years.

[CobraCommander]

Wilson to the giants bumps them up to second place in the NFC East easily, could get to first place even. 

[mhd24]

40 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

He's 33, not ancient for today's NFL.  They'd go from maybe having the worst clutch QB in the NFL to the best.  Count me as not excited for us if they get Wilson.  Daniel Jones has weapons.  Granted they've had injuries, a ton of them.  But Shepard, Golladay, Toney, Engram, Rudolph, Slaton, Ross -- not bad.   Barkley has been dissapointing but when healthy not bad.  They've swung and missed too much on the O line.  Andre Thomas though is having a good year.  I think changing up from their weak line at QB to a Hall of Fame QB likely means they have a better team than us depending on what we do at QB.  We barely beat them at full strength earlier this season and that's with Jones.  If they had a healthy Wilson that game, they'd likely have beaten us by a good margin IMO.

 

Barkley stinks.  Never has been a tough runner.  Cannot run inside.  One tackle and he's down.  Cannot pass block.  Compare him to Chubb (drafted in the same draft) and also had a devastating knee injury and its not even close.  Heck, Guice (also drafted the same year) was a much better instinctual runner than Barkley ever has been (notwithstanding what a disgusting POS Guice is personally).    

 

Rudolph is basically done.  Too slow.  

Engram is a FA and probably won't be back (Giants can't afford him anyways).

Shepard just tore is achilles.  Probably won't be close to full speed until week 6 next year.

Ross is just a castoff from the Bengals.

Galladay was good in Detroit, but he's injury prone.  Was his extreme drop of productivity due to Jones or his lack of separation?  

Toney is electric and will be dynamite, but he's their only weapon on offense.  

 

The Giants have the worst cap in the league.  They went all in this year and it did them no good.  

 

[HigSkin]

Maybe it's just me but Wilson to the Giants does not scare me.  In fact, he'd be nuts to go there.  They'll  be in rebuild with a new GM and cap purgatory.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He's 33, not ancient for today's NFL.  They'd go from maybe having the worst clutch QB in the NFL to the best.  Count me as not excited for us if they get Wilson. 

I agree somewhat and disagree somewhat.

 

There is no question he makes the Giants immediately the second best team in the NFC East.  (Barring the 'Skins getting Rodgers or something like that.)

 

But, I kindof think with his style of play, his longevity is less than other QBs.  He's not as big, he relies on his mobility and athleticism so much, and those types of things deteriorate faster than arm strength as you age.  Especially as you start to take hits.  

 

I don't see him able to maintain his level into his 40's the way Rodgers (probably) and Brady have been able to.  

 

Also, they're going to have to give up a boatload to get him, then they're going to have to pay him.  It could work out for them for a few years (and those could be really good years for them), but I don't see it as a long-term, stable situation for them.  

 

Also, according to overthecap.com, the Giants currently have $3.5M of cap space available in 2022, 29th only 42 players under contract.  With an "effective salary cap space" (some math where you have to have 51 players on the roster) of $-9.9M of space. And they currently have a QB on a rookie deal.

 

So, this doesn't mean you CAN'T make room, but it means that they are going to have to do a lot of jiggling of stuff around, probably shed some salary, and push money into future years to afford a top 5 QB salary.  I can't imagine Wilson would agree to be traded without some type of a contract extension and more guaranteed money...

 

Overall, I agree, it wouldn't be ideal.  I would prefer if he ended up in Houston.  But it's not a doomsday scenario either, I don't think.