The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

13 hours ago, skins island connection said:

 

 Yea, i've done my share of punching on Turner, but not for what he's done but for what he's not done.

 I know that the team isn't healthy, between Covid and football-related injuries it has taken its toll on this team.

 They were on a 4 game winning streak going into the Dallas game, but that game plan was god awful. Yes Dallas may be more talented but if Turner is such a good OC then how did he end up playing right into the hands of what Dallas wanted to do?  IMO the coaches were more to blame than the players, but still it doesn't absolve Turner from calling such a predictable game.

 

Dallas isn't THAT good of a team to embarrass the WFT like they did on tv; to me it looked as if Turner was trying to force an issue that Dallas was already prepared for, and even then he didn't really change up things until the game was way over with, and at that point its almost desperation calls which fall right into what Dallas expected. So yea, i'm just not sold on him as of yet. 

 

Disagree on the Dallas game being on the coaches.  Heinicke had a bad game.  O line, too. Guys were open who were missed.  It happens. 

 

It would be one thing if our O line was ballyhooed as one of the best units before the season and Heinicke was considered a top QB.  Instead the O line was considered a potential weakness.  And Heinicke is a feel good story/undrafted FA QB with almost no expectations for greatness.  Both end up feel good stories this season and that goes double considering the injuries that effected both.  They overacheived IMO not underacheived. 

 

Heinicke playing without Thomas, Samuel and now for a good chunck of the season without McKissic.  O line has been banged up.  I think both Heinicke and the O line are stories of overachieving versus coaching failures or they just got the minimum out of them. 

 

I think for plenty of us if we said before the season, here's how it will go.  Deandre Carter is our #2 receiver.  Seals-Jones our top TE.  We'd lose half our O line for most of the season.  I think we'd be expecting a lot of pain 😢

 

IMO Turner is scheming around Heinicke's arm and he's done a nice job relatively speaking on that front.   Dallas was ready for the dink and dunk.   I don't think you can scheme up to give Heinicke a stronger arm and scheme up his deep ball accuracy.   It just is what it is.    

 

I recall all the shots at Kyle Shanahan when we had Beck and Rex.  He was a moron then to some.  We can say hey the QBs suck but figure it out.  But I think its easier said then done.  The reason why mediocre-bad Qbs don't put up big numbers is IMO because they aren't that good -- there is so much you can scheme it up.   

 

Going back to Kyle, he became this innovative genius when they got RG3.   McVay was clueless in 2014 when they did the QB dance with RG3, Colt, Kirk.   Then all of a sudden Kirk in 2015 finds his groove and then McVay knows what he's doing.   Belichick is below 500 without Brady.    I recall all the hype that Al Saunders had before he got here.  Gregg Williams said he's the toughest O coordinator he ever had to coach against.  Saunders comes here with Jason Campbell and all of a sudden he looks "meh".  On and on and on.

 

It's hard for me think of an offensive coordinator who is ballyhooed with a pedestrain QB.  Maybe ironically if I had to think of one it would be Jay with Dalton.  I think back then people saw Dalton as slightly above average but nothing special.   Dalton though still had some lemon games and struggled to compete against better QBs.   And its not like the Cincy offense put up monster numbers. 

 

My feeling watching Scott isn't that he's one of the top O coordoinators in the league.  But I do not think he's a bottom rung guy either.  Some of his schemes come off inventive to me.  Like I said watching the backfield motion and formations at the Raiders game, he confused the heck out of me as to where the ball was going.  The anaylitics types have said he's one of the better coordinators as to playing the odds on different plays.  IMO he's got somethings cooking that are intriguing to me.  I don't love him.  But I like him. 

 

Rivera has said that Norv is somewhat involved in helping this team, too.  And the one thing that hits me about Norv's scheme is the run sets up going deep.  Logan Paulsen has talked about this saying the fact that they can move the ball on the ground can set up the big play which isn't something that can easily exploit with Heinicke because throwing deep isn't his forte.  So yeah color me intrigued to see Turner work with a young QB who could get the ball down the field. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

McLaurin is a legit deep threat, we just don't have a QB that can really take advantage of his ability to make plays downfield. The only QB that could was Case freaking Keenum.

 

Agreed on the RB part though. I like Gibson and while he does break tackles, it also seems like he loses his head of steam on the slightest bit of contact and runs that should go for 20+ only go for like 5.

[NoCalMike]

I think McVay did a good job maximizing Jared Goff before he hit a wall and D-coordinators figured him out.  There is a reason that some systems make pedestrian QB's look better than they are, but are still always on the hunt for what they feel is a top QB.  The Rams with Goff at QB still had a pretty solid offense for awhile, but Stafford just brings elements that Goff couldn't.

 

When it comes to the Top 5 (or so) QBs in the league, there is no real strategizing against them, because it doesn't work.  You can look to shut down the run game which puts the QB in much tougher situations.  You can game plan coverages to where players aren't getting open.  You can scheme up a vicious pass rush.  You can do all of those things, but any little hole left open on any given pass play and those elite QBs will take advantage. 

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

McLaurin is a legit deep threat, we just don't have a QB that can really take advantage of his ability to make plays downfield. The only QB that could was Case freaking Keenum.

 

Agreed on the RB part though. I like Gibson and while he does break tackles, it also seems like he loses his head of steam on the slightest bit of contact and runs that should go for 20+ only go for like 5.

 

Yeah it is sort of sad to see a portion of the fanbase already going lukewarm on McLaurin, considering we don't have QB's that can get him the ball consistently, despite game film showing he is consistently getting open.  It isn't always on the QB as sometimes the O-line simply can't hold protection long enough, but it doesn't help when you have a starting QB that really can't make those throws either at all, or without being able to set, plant, wind up, & heave, and even then the ball is floating. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

McLaurin is a legit deep threat, we just don't have a QB that can really take advantage of his ability to make plays downfield. The only QB that could was Case freaking Keenum.

 

 

Agree.

 

I've seen some who think Terry is overrated try to make the case among other points that the fact that he's the top weapon with no help actually inflates his numbers because he's the main target.  I get the logic but I think they are wrong.   He is one of the most doubled receiver in the league as various stats have shown.   Arguably 2 of his three concussions he's had in his career are products of him having to come back to catch an underthrown ball.   Playing here isn't the ideal scenario for Terry as some have made the case for. 

 

I'd feel differently if they had three receiving weapons like lets say Dallas.  But when you don't have another outlet it makes it tough. Rivera talked about this recently including how losing Mckissic makes it easy for teams to clamp down on Terry.

 

I'd also add Terry has yet to have a good deep ball thrower as a QB.   Haskins had a strong arm but threw a lousy deep ball.  Alex wasn't much for throwing deep or Keenum.  Heinicke IMO has been his best QB since he's been here but throwing deep isn't his forte. 

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/12/25/washingtons-skill-players-cycle-out-result-is-an-inconsistent-offense/?utm_campaign=wp_sports&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

For the past three years, it has been hard to evaluate the Washington Football Team’s entire offense by watching Terry McLaurin. The star wide receiver has been an outlier, a caveat, a beacon of dependability capable of transcending quarterbacks and supporting casts to deliver quality performances.

 

But over the past three games, McLaurin has seemed more tethered to and reflective of those around him. Coach Ron Rivera blamed the worst statistical stretch of McLaurin’s career — nine targets, five catches, 73 yards — on the quarterbacks not targeting him, and quarterback Taylor Heinicke explained it has been harder to target him because defenses have devoted more attention to him with several skill players absent.

 

Thanks to injuries over the past few weeks, Rivera acknowledged, the offense has seen “exactly what it means” to be without a vertical threat at tight end (Logan Thomas, knee), a change-of-pace running back (J.D. McKissic, neck) and a fully healthy No. 2 wide receiver (Curtis Samuel, hamstring).

 

“The value of those positions [is] important because it really does help a guy like Terry out a little bit more,” Rivera said, adding the team is trying to develop complements to McLaurin. “Unfortunately, we've had some setbacks.”

 

Despite other circumstances during the stretch, such as the team’s coronavirus outbreak and McLaurin’s concussion in Week 14, this seems to be the state of the offense. Because of injuries or slow development, Washington has neither the skill-position depth to distract defenses from McLaurin nor a passer capable of overcoming the extra attention. And even though Washington’s top two quarterbacks returned from the covid-19 reserve list this week, the weapons at Heinicke’s disposal may decrease.

 

On Friday, Washington listed running back Antonio Gibson (toe) and Samuel as questionable for Sunday night in Dallas. Rivera sounded optimistic both would play, but even if they do, pressure will be on the secondary skill players — running back Jaret Patterson, tight ends Ricky Seals-Jones and John Bates, wide receivers Dyami Brown, DeAndre Carter, Adam Humphries and Cam Sims — to help the unit keep pace with the Cowboys’ explosive offense.

 

“We got to disperse the ball, get those guys the ball — and hopefully Terry’s in there,” Heinicke said. “The defense isn’t stupid; those guys aren’t stupid. They know that we’re trying to get [McLaurin] the ball as well. We just have to play accordingly.”

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

McLaurin is a very good WR. I don't think he's elite, but there are only about five of those guys. I'd say he's a notch below that. On a scale of 1-10, if 10 were like Davante Adams, McLaurin is a solid 9.

[Skinsinparadise]

From what I've read in NY papers, mixed narrative if Jones stays the guy, looks slam dunk that Judge is back, looks slam dunk Getteman's gone but likely billed as "retirement"

 

Them riding with Jones would be awesome.  I know some here want to see Russell Wilson be their next Qb and believe that we get the last laugh on that -- but I am 100% not in that crowd. 

 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

A quick note on Turner: the one thing I would have tried when it was clear Thomas and Samuel were out and both going to basically have incomplete seasons is instead of relying more on running Gibson as an every down power back, which he is not, but at times split himself out wide and use more quick game to get the ball into his hands in space.  I THINK TH has the arm to do a lot of that kind of thing.  Substitute the short pass for a run. Which is very “West Coasty”

 

Thats never really been Norv’s thing though.  I have no idea if it is Scott’s.  Norv has always been more of a “if you’re going to run, just run” kindof coordinator.  Again, I’m not sure about Scott.  The sample size is small. 
 

I agree that Scott is coordinating around TH’s arm.  I just wish they hadn’t landed only on a power running game as the only way to go.  Just because it really doesn’t fit their personnel well.  That’s just not who Gibson is. 
 

It’s also a pity for Scott, he has had to deal with Haskins who didn’t know the playbook (and showed more interest in stripper parties than learning. It), Allen who got hurt immediately, Smith who had 1 leg and no mobility, Fitzy who was immediately hurt and learning a new system, and now TH who’s physically limited. It’s almost unfair to judge him at all. I would like to see him with a legitimate QB.  
 

I am surprised they haven’t gone after Bridgewater at any point because he’s probably a good stop-gap.  He knows the system, and he’s “ok.”  While trying to find QBX.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[88Comrade2000]

No external Gm candidate will want to stay with the current qb and would like their own coach eventually.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I agree that Scott is coordinating around TH’s arm.  I just wish they hadn’t landed only on a power running game as the only way to go.  Just because it really doesn’t fit their personnel well.  That’s just not who Gibson is. 

 

Loved Antonio Gibson before the draft, still like him.  I've defended him plenty.  

 

But I think this power discussion is a bit overstated by some.  I agree in a sense but also disagree in a sense too.  When i was paying attention heavily to formations at the game in Vegas, i notice a ton of zone, especually outside zone.   The O line was shifting heavily in one direction or another -- looked like Shanny's scheme quite a bit versus power.  So I just looked up the stats just now at PFF, we go almost 3:1 zone versus power.   So we are one of the leagues heaviest zone team as opposed to power.   Some teams like NE and Tampa are heavy power but that's not us.  

 

It might feel differently in part because on short yardage especially 4th and 1.   We seem to go heavy TE sets, power up the gut and get thwarted.  And its memorable for that reason because the disappointment stings.   But that's not the bread and butter run for this team. 

 

The problem IMO is they don't have a real inside power type RB.  It's like its Patterson or McKissic.  They are both arguably also suited to zone -- especially outside zone.  We got three spoons but need a fork.  I think Gibson is the best spoon that can be tried as a fork.   You can't run outside all the time without being too predictable.  So i don't mind some of the inside power stuff.  It's not what they major in.  it's what they minor in.  I don't put that on Scott Turner.  I put that on the FO.  They need to fix that this off season.  We got our Kamara type.  Heck maybe 2 Kamara types.  We need our Ingram.

 

My biggest beef with them at the RB game is they didn't get the complement on the roster to Gibson.   Some of us on the draft thread, me included, pounded the idea of getting a RB in the last draft -- and some thought we were on Mars and thought the idea was ridiculous.  It might not seem that crazy to them now? 

 

As for Norv, one thing that Scott adopts from him that drives me nuts as to Gibson is this.  When Gibson gets on a roll, he keeps feeding him the ball until the defense stops him.  In other words, until Gibson gets exhausted.   And I do think that might have something to do with at least some of his fumbles, especially the one against the Chargers, and him getting banged up.  I recall Norv would do the same -- keep running until the defense stops the RB and then he shifts gears.  

 

But I think a staple missing in this offense that Norv loved (and Logan Paulsen referred to recently) is take advantage of the safeties biting on play action by actually going deep.  Our version of a big play is like a 20 yard dig.  Norv would swing for the fences.  That's tough to do with this personnel. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[clskinsfan]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Some of us on the draft thread, me included, pounded the idea of getting a RB in the last draft

I was with you on this. But I wasnt in favor of taking one in the first. And Gibson has about the worst vision of a starting RB in the league. Running a zone scheme doesnt make a ton of sense when you have a back with poor vison IMO. Gibson would be such a threat from the slot. We really need a QB and RB in this draft. 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

I was with you on this. But I wasnt in favor of taking one in the first. And Gibson has about the worst vision of a starting RB in the league. Running a zone scheme doesnt make a ton of sense when you have a back with poor vison IMO. Gibson would be such a threat from the slot. We really need a QB and RB in this draft. 

 

Gibson IMO is a really good player.  But he's at his best when he can get to the edges.  He's a weapon in the pass game in the flat.  He can break tackles.  He has plenty going for him.  but I think he's a better Robin than Batman. 

 

In the last draft, I liked a bunch of early backs not just Harris and Etienne but also J. Williams.  Later in the draft, i liked a few guys but in particular K Herbert who is having a really good season.  We need that guy in this draft and in a big way. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

26 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

No external Gm candidate will want to stay with the current qb and would like their own coach eventually.

 

Probably so, some talk that the promotion is coming from within, will see.  I hope so. 

 

 

 

[clskinsfan]

I will probably get laughed at but I would pick up Jones 5th year option. He hasnt really shown that he is a franchise QB yet. But 22 million isnt exactly expensive as far as starting QB's go. As ridiculous as that fact is he may still end up a damn good player. You do see flashes of it. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

I will probably get laughed at but I would pick up Jones 5th year option. He hasnt really shown that he is a franchise QB yet. But 22 million isnt exactly expensive as far as starting QB's go. As ridiculous as that fact is he may still end up a damn good player. You do see flashes of it. 

 

Not me.  I was brutal on him before the draft but I still thought he'd be sort of a low tier starter, high end backup.  He ended up though IMO slightly better than that.  I see him as sort of a 20-26 level QB.   He's not at the dead bottom for me.  He's better than Darnold.  He's more accurate than Darnold and a better decision maker IMO. 

 

But IMO he turns over the ball too much, doesn't make enough big plays down the field.  Also while some give Kirk a hard time for not being clutch -- Daniel Jones IMO has gone below the radar for his struggles on that front, too.  Heck I know in part because I had to root for the Giants some in recent years for a combination of us getting Chase Young and needing them to beat teams who were in our way to make the playoffs.  And Daniel Jones in clutch situations has been brutal from what I've seen.

[Skinsinparadise]

No offense to Heinicke.  He's been the best Terry has had IMO.  But unless Taylor turns a corner in the next 3 weeks I agree with PFF's sentiment

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[CapsSkins]

@Skinsinparadise I know you like scouting the big college prospects... who do you like this year? I think I read you saying that Corral is your #1. Do you have a 2-5? Any tiering (these are trade-up worthy guys, these are definite 1st round grades, these are later round guys)?

[Warhead36]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Gibson IMO is a really good player.  But he's at his best when he can get to the edges.  He's a weapon in the pass game in the flat.  He can break tackles.  He has plenty going for him.  but I think he's a better Robin than Batman. 

 

In the last draft, I liked a bunch of early backs not just Harris and Etienne but also J. Williams.  Later in the draft, i liked a few guys but in particular K Herbert who is having a really good season.  We need that guy in this draft and in a big way. 

Yeah I like Gibson in space. And when he can plant his foot and cut he can make some real nice runs. But he just isn't great running in traffic, he often runs into the backs of linemen.

 

He needs to be paired with a Mark Ingram style power back.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah I like Gibson in space. And when he can plant his foot and cut he can make some real nice runs. But he just isn't great running in traffic, he often runs into the backs of linemen.

 

He needs to be paired with a Mark Ingram style power back.

Needs to be paired with a starting QB. Maybe if we had a passing game, he could find some space. Teams can put 9 in the box and hope that we have to rely on Heinicke. 

[method man]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Not me.  I was brutal on him before the draft but I still thought he'd be sort of a low tier starter, high end backup.  He ended up though IMO slightly better than that.  I see him as sort of a 20-26 level QB.   He's not at the dead bottom for me.  He's better than Darnold.  He's more accurate than Darnold and a better decision maker IMO. 

 

But IMO he turns over the ball too much, doesn't make enough big plays down the field.  Also while some give Kirk a hard time for not being clutch -- Daniel Jones IMO has gone below the radar for his struggles on that front, too.  Heck I know in part because I had to root for the Giants some in recent years for a combination of us getting Chase Young and needing them to beat teams who were in our way to make the playoffs.  And Daniel Jones in clutch situations has been brutal from what I've seen.

DJ was playing well this year until he got concussed against Dallas. He was obviously woozy walking off the field and the Giants brought him back the next week.

[Skinsinparadise]

At least we got some company

 

 

 

 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Hindsight is 20/20, but would be nice to have drafted Davis Mills last year.  He's the only rookie QB trending up currently.

[Warhead36]

People were super hyped on Mac Jones but if you actually watch him play and look at the #s, he hasn't really been great. He's been...mostly okay. The Pats were winning with their run game and defense. I don't think he's had one real good statistical game yet. And now its starting to show, against good teams like the Colts and Bills the Pats can't string together enough offense to win.

 

I'm not sure we'd be much better with Jones over Heinicke right now. Remember Heinicke has actually led multiple 4th quarter game winning scoring drives. I don't think Jones has led one yet.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

@Skinsinparadise I know you like scouting the big college prospects... who do you like this year? I think I read you saying that Corral is your #1. Do you have a 2-5? Any tiering (these are trade-up worthy guys, these are definite 1st round grades, these are later round guys)?

 

I've elaboated on many of them on the draft thread.  But I want to see how these guys do in the Senior Bowl and want to watch them more.  So my rankings likely change. The cliff notes of what I think of the top ones now:

 

1.  Corral:  My fav of the bunch.  Throws a good deep ball.  Has good mobilty.  Good accuracy.  Manipulates safeties with his body language.  Quick release.  Pocket presence.  Off platform throws.   Does just about everything well but isn't gifted as a passer albeit his coach Kiffin believes he's gifited.   He has really good talent though IMO.  He might be able to exceed his talent level in the pros because to me his intangibles are really high -- he's tough, he's a leader, hard worker, plays with moxie, etc.   I'd love to have him.   My main concern is his durability because of his size and style of play.  

 

I need to explore more on the others to rank them.  but for now, I'd go

 

2.  Willis:  Rocket arm.  Special mobiity.   But raw.  Real similar to Trey Lance last year with maybe higher upside.  High ceiling.  Low floor.   Had a bad supporting cast.  Senior Bowl should be interesting.  Makes the hard throws look easy and the easy throws look hard.  The next Josh Allen if we get lucky?

 

3.  Pickett:  Good accuracy. Good mobility.  Just average at best arm strength.  Really small hands.  High intangibles.  Can make off platform throws but i like Corral better on that front.  Is he a one year wonder, he wouldn't be the first to flash and fail whether in college or the pros.  Senior Bowl should be interesting.  I've tried to fall in love with his play.  There is something about him that makes me hesitate to swoon over him.  But my mind is still open on that front.  Some do have him as their #1 QB.  I am not in that group but i get the thought.   My concern with him is does he end up just pedestrian?  I do think he has a high floor. 

 

4.  Howell:  Reminds me skill set wise of Corral.  I like his size better than Corral.  But I like Corral's pocket presence much better, also I think Corral's mobility IMO will translate better to the NFL.   But Howell has a toughness about him that I really dig.  He's like Corral on that front.  Played with a lot of adversity this year.  Throws a really nice deep ball.  Good arm talent.  If you give him time he's accurate.  I like him more than the typical mock drafter does.  

 

5.   Ridder:  He's the hardest one for me to come with a definitive opinion about because with him it so depends on what game you watch.  When he's on, he throws a nice deep ball, can run, is a gamer with high intangibles.  When he's off he reminds of Haskins as to how he struggles with quick outs in the flat, throwing to the left, etc.    His decision making worries me -- not as bad as Darnold or Rosen but i've seen enough that concerns me.   He's one of those guys that strikes me that really needs to find the right coach because if there is a way to fix his flaws I think he can be good.  His inconsistent accuracy is my biggest concern.  I waffle on him.

 

6.  Strong:  Reminds of Mark Rypien, maybe Flacco?  Throws beautiful deep balls and perfectly places difficult out routes.   If this was the 1980s, he might be QB 1.  Put a wall in front of him, lead with the run game and have him kill you deep with play action.  But his lack of mobility coupled with lack of pocket presence makes me think a good pass rusing team could tee off of him.   but as a pure passer, he's a fun watch. 

 

7.  Zappe.  His flavor to me is similar to Pickett.  Good accuracy.  Decent mobility.  High intangibles.  Just average at best arm strength.  His competition wasn't hot and he had great protection and weapons.  It was 70 degrees and sunny for him just about every game -- what happens when he's under duress?  He also played in a very college system not so much pros -- Air Raid, 4 WRs, high tempo.  Senior Bowl is key for me. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

I have a feeling some team(s) in the top 10 or even top 5 will fall in love with Willis and draft him super early.