The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I mean he's not wrong. The best QB McLaurin has had over his career is Case freaking Keenum.

He’s definitely not wrong, that’s just brutal to be so blunt while the team is warming up behind him.

[Jericho]

Just a quick thought to put out there, but how many teams legitly improved their QB from 2020 to 2021? I get that guys like Lawrence, Wilson, and/or Fields may ultimately turn out to be pretty good if not great players. But for 2021, they've all generally sucked. Trey Lance isn't playing much at all (and understandably so, though it appears Jimmy G just got hurt AGAIN). So how many teams actually upgraded?

 

I'd argue a grand total of three:

(1) New England - the decaying corpse of Cam Newton to Mac Jones is a step up. The bar was low and I'm still not sure how good (or not good) Mac Jones is. But he's at least okay and better than this version of Newton;

(2) Denver - Bridgewater (when he plays) is at least better than Lock. That's also a very low bar to clear, but it was done. Bridgewater isn't the answer, but it was an upgrade so it counts; and

(3) Los Angeles Rams - I do view Stafford as better than Goff, but the question is how much better? Stafford's season is looking eerily like Goff's 2018 and I think a bit underwhelming given the price tag. The Rams are going all in for the now and if Stafford can deliver in the playoffs then it'll be worth it. But even this isn't some grand leap forward at this point.

 

Jacksonville, New York (Jets), San Francisco, and Chicago all hope 2022 brings better QB development. Carolina somehow gave up tons of picks and guaranteed Sam Darnold another 20 million dollars to get worse QB play. Washington signed Fitzpatrick and got about 5 seconds of play before turning to a guy that was a street free agent in late 2020. Indianapolis paid a bunch to get okay play to replace an okay Philip Rivers and rely on an otherwise strong roster. Philadelphia sold high on a mediocre QB and replaced him a crappier, but cheaper version (and banked the draft picks). And the Saints basically knew they had no real good plan post Drew Brees. Everyone else basically stuck with what they had.

 

So if you're hoping for some magic improvement in 2022, it probably isn't happening.

[Burgundy Yoda]

5 hours ago, zskins said:

The missing link might be Fitz next year. They bring him back since the QB class is okay but not great in the draft. Add to the Oline and get better LB'ers. Find a better kicker too. 

The missing link to what exactly? He would get murdered again behind this OL, no way he survives the season.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[Burgold]

6 hours ago, Jericho said:

Just a quick thought to put out there, but how many teams legitly improved their QB from 2020 to 2021? I get that guys like Lawrence, Wilson, and/or Fields may ultimately turn out to be pretty good if not great players. But for 2021, they've all generally sucked. Trey Lance isn't playing much at all (and understandably so, though it appears Jimmy G just got hurt AGAIN). So how many teams actually upgraded?

 

I'd actually put Washington in this category. Hienike for all his many faults and the fact that he probably can't turn into a true franchise QB is demonstrably better than Haskins and a one-legged Alex Smith.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

I'd actually put Washington in this category. Hienike for all his many faults and the fact that he probably can't turn into a true franchise QB is demonstrably better than Haskins and a one-legged Alex Smith.

Heinicke is not remotely as good as a one legged Smith.

5 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

The missing link to what exactly? He would get murdered again behind this OL, no way he survives the season.

I'm not advocating for Fitz returning and I think he retires, but I don't know if we're in this position if he stayed healthy. Our line was one of the best. A QB who holds the ball too long and forces the OC to rely on a heavy run game it wasn't built to run, all gets guys hurt and strains the Oline, so I don't know if we're in this position if he stayed healthy.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

I'm not advocating for Fitz returning and I think he retires, but I don't know if we're in this position if he stayed healthy. Our line was one of the best. A QB who holds the ball too long and forces the OC to rely on a heavy run game it wasn't built to run, all gets guys hurt and strains the Oline, so I don't know if we're in this position if he stayed healthy.

 

If Fitz played the way he did in Miami we'd be in the playoffs IMO.  the O line has been one of the best in the league this season.  Some have the Dallas games in their heads as if every game was like that.  But they haven't been.  Dallas was a handful for a banged up line facing Parsons, Gregory, Lawrence.

[Conn]

I don’t think there’s any data showing that run blocking gets OL hurt at a higher rate than pass blocking. In fact I’d think it’s quite the opposite, I’ve read that OL look forward to run blocking downs where they can just forge ahead, it’s like a “break” from the mental and physical stress of having to be perfect pass blocking. And I’m almost positive that OL get their legs rolled up on far more frequently while standing up and holding in place in pass protection than they do run blocking. 

[zCommander]

6 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

The missing link to what exactly? He would get murdered again behind this OL, no way he survives the season.

 

The missing link to the playoffs. You fortify the line and add to the D. You resign him to another 1 year deal but maybe a little less. Fitz was brought in hopes of going to the playoffs the way our D was playing. We never saw that this year. So the question still remains. 

 

The other question one has to think about is: Are we really a QB away from winning it all? Is the QB class in 2023 better? Will we have a higher pick in 2023 like we are going to have in 2022 (if we lose out that is and will be picking at 7). 

[Skinsinparadise]

I agree with that tweet below.  If the Giants and or Eagles end up with a top 10 QB (which I gather from some posts here, some want to see happen) and we swing and miss or don't seriously swing, I think we will secure ourselves as the bottom dweller of the East.

 

It should be a really interesting off season if the other teams in the East compete with us for QBs.  Eagles with three #1 picks to deal.   Giants with two top 10 picks to deal. 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Die Hard]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If Fitz played the way he did in Miami we'd be in the playoffs IMO.

I was among the loudest banging the drum for Fitzpatrick this off-season (and Samuel). 
 

Id like to agree with that statement.

 

However, there wasn’t a guarantee of that. Fitz didn’t look good in preseason and his drives to start the season against the Chargers.

 

Perhaps he may have progressed as the season went…. maybe not. And the injuries that hit this year hit everybody except McLauren. And he likes to reveal his injuries in the offseason so I’m sure he’s hurt as well - his play has peculiarly dropped off as late.

 

Injuries have been the story of this season. Almost every single starter. Sometimes, you just get unlucky there.  

[Die Hard]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I agree with that tweet below.  If the Giants and or Eagles end up with a top 10 QB (which I gather from some posts here, some want to see happen) and we swing and miss or don't seriously swing, I think we will secure ourselves as the bottom dweller of the East.

 

It should be a really interesting off season if the other teams in the East compete with us for QBs.  Eagles with three #1 picks to deal.   Giants with two top 10 picks to deal. 

 

 

 

If the Giants land Wilson… then one of those top 10 picks is included. Now they only get 1 premium player and they’re no longer in competition to draft one of the top QB options.

 

I’m a long haul guy…. and I wouldn’t argue drafting a QB with our first this year. But I wouldn’t expect good QB play for 2-3 years…. and I’m not sure this franchise and fan base can continue to be patient. And even then, they have to hit on it. I mean HAVE to…. or there won’t be anything left by then.

 

A shiny new QB prospect will give some hope and goodwill for an off-season and half a season. That kid is going to have to save this franchise…. and the clock is already ticking.

 

 

[KDawg]

Let's also not forget that when our OL buckled Heinicke saved them at times. Let's not push the narrative to Heinicke being terrible and an issue for us all season. He's not a franchise quarterback, and he has held the offense back with his arm... but Fitz isn't making some of those Houdini plays that saved us more than a few times, either. 

 

Do we get into those situations with better QB play? I'm not sure.

 

But I don't think we should try to project what Fitz brings to the table while simultaenously forgetting what Heinicke DID do to help us. 

Just now, Die Hard said:

If the Giants land Wilson… then one of those top 10 picks is included. Now they only get 1 premium player and they’re no longer in competition to draft one of the top QB options.

 

I’m a long haul guy…. and I wouldn’t argue drafting a QB with our first this year. But I wouldn’t expect good QB play for 2-3 years…. and I’m not sure this franchise and fan base can continue to be patient. And even then, they have to hit on it. I mean HAVE to…. or there won’t be anything left by then.

 

A shiny new QB prospect will give some hope and goodwill for an off-season and half a season. That kid is going to have to save this franchise…. and the clock is already ticking.

 

 

Wouldn't be surprised if both firsts were in play if they trade for Wilson.

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

I was among the loudest banging the drum for Fitzpatrick this off-season (and Samuel). 
 

Id like to agree with that statement.

 

However, there wasn’t a guarantee of that. Fitz didn’t look good in preseason and his drives to start the season against the Chargers.

 

 

Fitz it least late in his career has started off slow and heated up.  Tough for me to condemn him for a few series in one game and a preseason game that amounted to 21 throws which is the equivalent to about half a game.

 

I watched in person much of their training camp in Richmond.  Fitz looked distinctly better than Taylor in camp -- it was part of the reason why reporters shrugged off the idea that Taylor had any shot to unseat Fitz before the season started.

 

24 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

 

Perhaps he may have progressed as the season went…. maybe not.

 

If recent history is prologue I don't think its that big of a maybe.  Fitz isn't a top 10 QB.  But in recent years he's solidly in that 15-18 range.  He said he's playing his best ball late in his career.  Maybe it would have all fallen apart for him this year.  It's possible.  I doubt it though.

 

24 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

 

Injuries have been the story of this season. Almost every single starter. Sometimes, you just get unlucky there.  

 

Agree.  I don't dislike Taylor.  I think he's been fine.  Cool story.  But I've seen Fitz throw back to back with Taylor.  Fitz doesn't have a gun but he has a bonafide NFL arm.  He's a better QB IMO.     Taylor is more mobile.  Fitz is more accurate.  He throws a better ball.  It wasn't that hard to see either.  It's part of the reason why there wasn't a serious QB competition this summer IMO.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

I don’t think there’s any data showing that run blocking gets OL hurt at a higher rate than pass blocking. In fact I’d think it’s quite the opposite, I’ve read that OL look forward to run blocking downs where they can just forge ahead, it’s like a “break” from the mental and physical stress of having to be perfect pass blocking. And I’m almost positive that OL get their legs rolled up on far more frequently while standing up and holding in place in pass protection than they do run blocking. 

In general I agree, but having to rely on 12 play 8 minute drives and constantly going north south against 8 and 9 man boxes takes a toll.

 

If you have a mediocre QB, then you can run against lighter boxes more often and win, instead of a constant grind wearing you down.

[Warhead36]

0 chance we bring Fitz back. He'll retire.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

It doesn't matter to me to project what Fitz would have done.   But yeah sorry it would be difficult to convince me that it would have been a wash if it were Taylor or Fitz.

 

I think Fitz wasn't right that first game.  I actually do buy the water slide thing.  I've seen him play a lot including live multiple times and the dude is actually fairly mobile.  That's the sneaky thing about him that beat writers who covered him have talked about and are surprised by it when they first see it.  He actually led Miami in rushing one season.  

 

But the lingering impression we have of him is that he's a statue because he didn't really move in game 1.  He's not Taylor level as for moving in the pocket but the dude can move.  If anything its one of his attributes as opposed to liabilities.

 

His O line in Miami was atrocious. If I recall ranked dead last or close to it. He was under pressure all the time there and worked around it. I showed the stats a million times when we signed him.  Heck his most famous play maybe for his career was about making a throw with a defender hanging on top of him, pulling him down, where he should have gone down let alone complete a game winning pass. 

 

For the Heinicke Hive.   I got plenty of love for Taylor.   But, I am about the team and I am ruthless that way.  I want to win.  There are plenty of guys I love.  Great stories.  I got no animosity at all for Taylor.  Zero.  I got no animosity for any player.  I want to upgrade Mike LB even though I've heard that Bostic is a super cool dude.  Smith-Williams is a super cool guy yet I want another pass rusher to kick in if we lost Sweat and Chase again.  I can go on and on.  It's not just about QB.

 

Kudos for Heinicke overachieving and everything he's done.  Yeah I do think Fitz would have been better by a clear peg.  He's more accurate.  He has a real NFL arm.  He's more mobile than some people think.  He also has all the leadership skills that Taylor was praised for.  But it doesn't matter in hindsight or moving forward.  I don't want either guy to be the #1.  Even though they both are probably among the most lovable QBs in the league who are all about the team.  Intangibles through the roof. 

37 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

If the Giants land Wilson… then one of those top 10 picks is included. Now they only get 1 premium player and they’re no longer in competition to draft one of the top QB options.

 

 

 

 

I'd rather watch the Giants botch some more top 10 picks than replace their biggest liability with arguably one of the most clutch QBs we've seen in NFL history.

 

I got too many Giant in law relatives to enjoy watching the Giants beat up on us for 4-5 more years.  I am patient but i am not that patient. 😀

Edited December 28, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Conn]

17 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

In general I agree, but having to rely on 12 play 8 minute drives and constantly going north south against 8 and 9 man boxes takes a toll.

 

If you have a mediocre QB, then you can run against lighter boxes more often and win, instead of a constant grind wearing you down.

Thats a good point, and gives some extra context, the lack of explosive plays and lack of ability to get off the field quickly with 6 at least on some drives can’t help at all.

[Burgundy Yoda]

1 hour ago, zskins said:

 

The missing link to the playoffs. You fortify the line and add to the D. You resign him to another 1 year deal but maybe a little less. Fitz was brought in hopes of going to the playoffs the way our D was playing. We never saw that this year. So the question still remains. 

 

The other question one has to think about is: Are we really a QB away from winning it all? Is the QB class in 2023 better? Will we have a higher pick in 2023 like we are going to have in 2022 (if we lose out that is and will be picking at 7). 

Maybe, it all depends on scheduling, but I don't have much faith in a 40 year old coming off a hip injury. It just doesn't do much to inspire hope that we will or could be alright for the foreseeable future. 

 

We definitely aren't a QB away from winning it all, there is no sustainable growth with this team lol. Most players just stay as good as they were as rookies and others take steps back. 

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, zskins said:

 

The missing link to the playoffs. You fortify the line and add to the D. You resign him to another 1 year deal but maybe a little less. Fitz was brought in hopes of going to the playoffs the way our D was playing. We never saw that this year. So the question still remains. 

 

The other question one has to think about is: Are we really a QB away from winning it all? Is the QB class in 2023 better? Will we have a higher pick in 2023 like we are going to have in 2022 (if we lose out that is and will be picking at 7). 

 

Business wise... I don't think the current office/coaching personnel survive another stinker of a season. So if we are picking higher in 2023 it means there's PROBABLY going to be a new coaching staff. Which is something Ron-Mart would probably like to avoid. So I think the answer is: It doesn't matter if we're drafting higher in 23 or if the class is better. This is the class we're going to make a move in. 

[zCommander]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Business wise... I don't think the current office/coaching personnel survive another stinker of a season. So if we are picking higher in 2023 it means there's PROBABLY going to be a new coaching staff. Which is something Ron-Mart would probably like to avoid. So I think the answer is: It doesn't matter if we're drafting higher in 23 or if the class is better. This is the class we're going to make a move in. 

 

I don't think Ron will be on the hot seat. Too soon. We stayed with Gruden longer. I just don't want Ron to get an okay QB just for the sake of it or because it makes the fans happy. I want to see some stability and long term solution. I envy the Steelers FO. They don't fire the coaches because of couple of bad years. 

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

I don't think Ron will be on the hot seat. Too soon. We stayed with Gruden longer. I just don't want Ron to get an okay QB just for the sake of it or because it makes the fans happy. I want to see some stability and long term solution. I envy the Steelers FO. They don't fire the coaches because of couple of bad years. 

If we put up another stinker, make no mistake, he will be on a hot seat. Should he be? I don't know.

 

I don't see anyone better coming to be the HC unless someone views this as a challenge to conquer... which... no one will.

 

I'm starting to think the ultimate plan with Rivera was to have him become the President of Football Operations after his run as coach and have his presence attract a new head coach that wants to work with a respected man like Ron. And in truth, I think he's operating more as an office guy than a HC. Not to say he's not involved as HC. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by KDawg

[Est.1974]

Rivera wanting to see more of Kyle Allen in the last couple of games...I mean they must know what he gives them. They brought him across via trade in the first place. Strange.
 

Secondly, the Rivera comments posted by SIP on the previous page. Feels like we are seriously going to go all in for a QB. FA trade, move up in the draft. Dare I say that I could actually see us moving up into the top 3 in the draft.....

[88Comrade2000]

If Ron goes with a veteran QB in 22; then he has to finish 8-8-1 or 9-8. He doesn’t have to make playoffs but he will have to do something he hasn’t done his first 2 years.  Year 1 was a fluke playoff appearance.  You go 3 years in and don’t have an answer at qb; I don’t see how you last if you aren’t winning.

 

 

Now if we draft a rookie qb with out Top 10 pick; then that buys Ron more time. You expect to lose with a rookie qb and we see that in 3/4 places where rookie qbs played this year.

[zCommander]

10 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Dare I say that I could actually see us moving up into the top 3 in the draft.....

 

The best we could do is picking at #7 even if we lose the next two games. 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

If Ron goes with a veteran QB in 22; then he has to finish 8-8-1 or 9-8. He doesn’t have to make playoffs but he will have to do something he hasn’t done his first 2 years.  Year 1 was a fluke playoff appearance.  You go 3 years in and don’t have an answer at qb; I don’t see how you last if you aren’t winning.

 

 

Now if we draft a rookie qb with out Top 10 pick; then that buys Ron more time. You expect to lose with a rookie qb and we see that in 3/4 places where rookie qbs played this year.

 

Eh. Maybe.

 

Kyle Shanahan - Will retain his job.

 

Matt Nagy - Will be gone.

 

Robert Salah - Will be there for at least one more season.

 

David Culley - We'll see but probably survives.

 

Urban Meyer - Gone already.

 

Bill Belichick - Obviously not going anywhere.

 

So 2 will be gone, 1 may survive, 1 will get at least another year and 2 were never in any kind of danger.