The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Yeah, but he was saying that Howell has mobility - unless you call Howell a true dropback QB. I'm not saying He's a Hurts or a Jackson either, but its the mobility element that can save a play that like he said takes a lof of pressure off EB. Its the opposite of Kirk or Alex or Haskins. Its not to the level of an RG3 or a Hurts or a Jackson but you have seen in both games as a pro that its there. 

 

 

You "corrected" me when I said he compared him to Heinicke.  You said no it was Hurts and that it was Standig who did the Heinicke bit.  

 

You said to me"

"No, he mentioned Hurts. Standig mentioned Heinicke, but Jay mentioned Hurts. I'm trying to get the exact quote."

 

I was right and your correction was wrong.  No big deal.  But since you wanted to correct what I heard on the post.  I wanted to correct you back for all those who don't bother to listen to that podcast that Jay indeed made his comparisons to Minshew and Heinicke.

 

Yes, he did say Howell has mobiility and he liked that.  But he didn't say his play reminded him of Hurts.  He just on another point referenced its good to have mobility and referenced players who can run. 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You "corrected" me when I said he compared him to Heinicke.  You said no it was Hurts and that it was Standig who did the Heinicke bit.  

 

You said to me"

"No, he mentioned Hurts. Standig mentioned Heinicke, but Jay mentioned Hurts. I'm trying to get the exact quote."

 

I was right and your correction was wrong.  No big deal.  But since you wanted to correct what I heard on the post.  I wanted to correct you back for all those who don't bother to listen to that podcast that Jay indeed made his comparisons to Minshew and Heinicke.

 

Yes, he did say Howell has mobiility and he liked that.  But he didn't say his play reminded him of Hurts.  He just on another point referenced its good to have mobility and referenced players who can run. 

 

 

Huh. What's going on here.

 

1. I said Jay Compared him to Hurts

2. I provided a quote where Jay compares him to Hurts. 

 

How am I wrong? 

 

Edit. when I noted the Hurts stuff, It wasn't to say he didn't compare him to Minshew, I just didn't/don't care about that. What stood out to me and perked my ears was the quote that I outlined because as Ben said, "do you want to coach it out of him" and as Jay responded "no you need that mobility in today's NFL". I loved that back and forth and I love that he seems to think Howell has mobility (at least in my opinion). If you don't think he thinks Howell has that mobility that's on you. I think he said He can bail Beinemy out, which clearly says Howell can do it. 

 

Edit 2: I'm editing this again because I wasn't the first to mention Heinicke. I didn't care about Heinicke. I didn't care about Heinicie. I didn't come in here with Heinicke. I came with Hurts. You mentioned Heinicke. I said Hurts.  The quote at 31 was the one that wowed me. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Thinking Skins

[Warhead36]

I think he's more Baker Mayfield than Gardner Minshew. Minshew doesn't really have an NFL arm. Howell, like Mayfield, has a cannon.

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

I think he's more Baker Mayfield than Gardner Minshew. Minshew doesn't really have an NFL arm. Howell, like Mayfield, has a cannon.

Only thing about Baker is that he's not a rusher ... like at all. Every year in his career he has less than 200 yards. He has a few rushing TDs, but I don't see him as a super mobile guy and that's kinda why I can see him on his current career arc. 

[Skinsinparadise]

35 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Huh. What's going on here.

 

1. I said Jay Compared him to Hurts

2. I provided a quote where Jay compares him to Hurts. 

 

How am I wrong? 

 

Edit. when I noted the Hurts stuff, It wasn't to say he didn't compare him to Minshew, I just didn't/don't care about that. What stood out to me and perked my ears was the quote that I outlined because as Ben said, "do you want to coach it out of him" and as Jay responded "no you need that mobility in today's NFL". I loved that back and forth and I love that he seems to think Howell has mobility (at least in my opinion). If you don't think he thinks Howell has that mobility that's on you. I think he said He can bail Beinemy out, which clearly says Howell can do it. 

 

Edit 2: I'm editing this again because I wasn't the first to mention Heinicke. I didn't care about Heinicke. I didn't care about Heinicie. I didn't come in here with Heinicke. I came with Hurts. You mentioned Heinicke. I said Hurts.  The quote at 31 was the one that wowed me. 

 

I said Jay compared him to Heinicke.  You said nope.  He compared him to Hurts.  And it was Standig who compared him to Heinicke.  Unless there is something I am missing in your post, your point seemed crystal clear?

 

All I said in response to that is, you misheard that.  Jay indeed compared him to Heinicke.  And even the Standig part you referenced, had him repeat Jay comparing him to Heinicke and then he launched into his point.

 

Standig referencing coaching out of Howell him holding the ball too long and asked Jay if he would beat it out of him.  And Jay responded that its a critical component for todays QBs to have mobility, see what Hurts, Lamar does and other QBs with athleticism. 

 

He did not compare him to Hurts.  He just listed QBs like him who have mobility. That quote you transcribed referenced not holding back QBs who are mobile.  If you think that means Hurts = Howell then hey why not Lamar since he mentioned him, too?

 

It's like saying Kirk is a drop back QB.  And with drop back QBs like him, Brady, Manning,etc, you need to do X, Y, Z.  And my response to that is hey they are comparing Kirk to Brady as similar caliber. 😎

 

I think you got jazzed hearing Hurts name.  I don't blame you.  but that wasn't even close to Jay saying Howell reminds him of Hurts.  He flat out named who Howell reminds him of.  And that wasn't the first time he made that comparison. 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[method man]

19 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Only thing about Baker is that he's not a rusher ... like at all. Every year in his career he has less than 200 yards. He has a few rushing TDs, but I don't see him as a super mobile guy and that's kinda why I can see him on his current career arc. 

 

Agreed. You can't be both undersized and immobile to succeed in the NFL. The lack of mobility is Baker's fatal flaw. 

[Thinking Skins]

OK, we just disagree on what Jay is saying. I never said it said Hurts = Howell. I focused on the part where Ben said coaching out of the throwing out of ball away and athleticism because I enjoyed that part.

 

Me.

 

I'm the custoer

 

I'm listening for me. 

 

So I enjoyed that part.

 

I enjoyed that Jay Gruden Quote so much that I decided to transcribe it for the record and for the rest of the ES community. Like I said, I thought it was a really good Gruden interview. The rest of it I thought was meh, but that quote was beautiful. :chefs kiss:

 

So what if Howell isn't Hurts or Jackson or Jones or Allen in terms of athleticism. The point is he has some athleticism so he can keep plays open and beat you both ways. 

 

But I'm letting this one go. I enjoyed this quote. I'm not enjoyign the back and forth about who's right and who's not. If you're sure you're right. then you're right. I give up. It's not that big to me. 

6 minutes ago, method man said:

 

Agreed. You can't be both undersized and immobile to succeed in the NFL. The lack of mobility is Baker's fatal flaw. 

Well, I think you can, but you need durability and a cannon for an arm. Heinicke has durability right now but no cannon. Baker's main problem has been durability. I think people would have worked with him not running if he could stay healthy, but he couldn't. And he can't protect himself so it adds up. 

[method man]

6 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Well, I think you can, but you need durability and a cannon for an arm. Heinicke has durability right now but no cannon. Baker's main problem has been durability. I think people would have worked with him not running if he could stay healthy, but he couldn't. And he can't protect himself so it adds up. 

 

Brees is the only smaller QB I can think of off the top of my head who was effective without "mobility" but even he could maneuver well in the pocket to be able to make the necessary throws. 

[goskins10]

On 9/12/2023 at 12:26 PM, MartinC said:

I would snatch the Jets hands off for a 3rd pick for Brissett!! But I agree with you I doubt Ron the HC coaching for his job pulls that trigger - that leave him one snap away from Jake Fromm starting games.

 

I think you guys are misjudging Ron here.  Making it sound like he is grasping desperately to anything in hopes to keep this job. I believe he has pride and wants to win and yes keep his job, but I do not think he is in that kind of desperation mode. Like he would sell out anyone or anything just to get an extra win even if it was detrimental to the team long term. I think he has to much integrity for that. But fair enough, that may be me misjudging him. Now he may not want to part with Brissett as it puts the team in bind in terms of QBs if Howell gos down.  But he values draft picks and if they made the right offer I think he would take it and live with Fromm if he had to. 

 

I am not happy with him defending duffous dan (lost a lot of benifit of the doubt with me) but I am more Ok with what he has done in terms of team building than others. I said from the beginning I am Ok with whatever happens to him. Stay, go, whatever Josh Harris and team think is best. Right now I am 100% team Harris. But still I think Ron is getting run down a bit too harsh. 1st games can be decieving. I remember delivering a few beatdowns only to end up well below .500.  I have seen many teams come out flat game 1 and make SBs. I think it's game 3 or 4 till you really start to see what kind of team you have. Lines have a chance to play together palyers start to better understand and even anticipate game plans, etc. And for teams with a new OC and QB, they need some time to understand each other from live situations. I expect the play calling to evolvel some over the next few weeks. 

 

 

[MartinC]

3 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

. And for teams with a new OC and QB, they need some time to understand each other from live situations. I expect the play calling to evolvel some over the next few weeks. 

Completely agree with this. We need to establish our offensive identity and that might take a couple more games as EB understands more about what he has to work with and how to get the best out of them. You should be able to get a feel for that during camp and preseason but you don’t really find out until it really matters.

[method man]

33 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I think you guys are misjudging Ron here.  Making it sound like he is grasping desperately to anything in hopes to keep this job. I believe he has pride and wants to win and yes keep his job, but I do not think he is in that kind of desperation mode. Like he would sell out anyone or anything just to get an extra win even if it was detrimental to the team long term. I think he has to much integrity for that. But fair enough, that may be me misjudging him. Now he may not want to part with Brissett as it puts the team in bind in terms of QBs if Howell gos down.  But he values draft picks and if they made the right offer I think he would take it and live with Fromm if he had to. 

 

I am not happy with him defending duffous dan (lost a lot of benifit of the doubt with me) but I am more Ok with what he has done in terms of team building than others. I said from the beginning I am Ok with whatever happens to him. Stay, go, whatever Josh Harris and team think is best. Right now I am 100% team Harris. But still I think Ron is getting run down a bit too harsh. 1st games can be decieving. I remember delivering a few beatdowns only to end up well below .500.  I have seen many teams come out flat game 1 and make SBs. I think it's game 3 or 4 till you really start to see what kind of team you have. Lines have a chance to play together palyers start to better understand and even anticipate game plans, etc. And for teams with a new OC and QB, they need some time to understand each other from live situations. I expect the play calling to evolvel some over the next few weeks. 

 

 

Taking Quan and Daniels and not trading any future draft assets illustrate your point

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

I think you guys are misjudging Ron here.  Making it sound like he is grasping desperately to anything in hopes to keep this job. I believe he has pride and wants to win and yes keep his job, but I do not think he is in that kind of desperation mode. Like he would sell out anyone or anything just to get an extra win even if it was detrimental to the team long term. I think he has to much integrity for that. But fair enough, that may be me misjudging him. Now he may not want to part with Brissett as it puts the team in bind in terms of QBs if Howell gos down.  But he values draft picks and if they made the right offer I think he would take it and live with Fromm if he had to. 

 

I am not happy with him defending duffous dan (lost a lot of benifit of the doubt with me) but I am more Ok with what he has done in terms of team building than others. I said from the beginning I am Ok with whatever happens to him. Stay, go, whatever Josh Harris and team think is best. Right now I am 100% team Harris. But still I think Ron is getting run down a bit too harsh. 1st games can be decieving. I remember delivering a few beatdowns only to end up well below .500.  I have seen many teams come out flat game 1 and make SBs. I think it's game 3 or 4 till you really start to see what kind of team you have. Lines have a chance to play together palyers start to better understand and even anticipate game plans, etc. And for teams with a new OC and QB, they need some time to understand each other from live situations. I expect the play calling to evolvel some over the next few weeks. 

 

 

Ron's really never showed any inclination to plan long-term. It's all been about winning in the short term. He's had several years with marketable players with no future in Washington who could have been dealt fro draft picks off mediocre or worse teams and he's never done it. 

 

That's honestly what you should expect when a Coach is the de facto GM. Coaches will almost always over prioritize Ws in the now over building for the future. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Rufus T Firefly

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

OK, we just disagree on what Jay is saying. I never said it said Hurts = Howell. I focused on the part where Ben said coaching out of the throwing out of ball away and athleticism because I enjoyed that part.

 

Me.

 

I'm the custoer

 

I'm listening for me. 

 

So I enjoyed that part.

 

I enjoyed that Jay Gruden Quote so much that I decided to transcribe it for the record and for the rest of the ES community. Like I said, I thought it was a really good Gruden interview. The rest of it I thought was meh, but that quote was beautiful. :chefs kiss:

 

So what if Howell isn't Hurts or Jackson or Jones or Allen in terms of athleticism. The point is he has some athleticism so he can keep plays open and beat you both ways. 

 

But I'm letting this one go. I enjoyed this quote. I'm not enjoyign the back and forth about who's right and who's not. If you're sure you're right. then you're right. I give up. It's not that big to me. 

Well, I think you can, but you need durability and a cannon for an arm. Heinicke has durability right now but no cannon. Baker's main problem has been durability. I think people would have worked with him not running if he could stay healthy, but he couldn't. And he can't protect himself so it adds up. 

 

I am not enjoying the back and forth on it either.  I only bothered with it because your post came off like I unintentionally misrepresented what Jay said.  I listened back to it and i didn't misrepresent it even a little

 

But its all good.  All in good spirits on my end.

 

I guess for me, it seem like a nothing burger that Jay acknowledged that Howell can run. Especially in the context it was said which was in response to a Standig point about restraining him.   But if you thought it was a big quote, that's cool, to each their own.

 

Look I am higher than most on Howell.  I've listened to Jay enough to get the sense he has some doubts he's the goods.  He comes off typically a bit lukewarm about him but feels like he's warming up some.  He's not down on him but he doesn't seem per se sold yet.  Heck relistening to that interview I picked up that he's skeptical about Pickett.  He referenced Pittsburgh is going to have to win differently because of questionable QB play. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

I think you guys are misjudging Ron here.  Making it sound like he is grasping desperately to anything in hopes to keep this job. I believe he has pride and wants to win and yes keep his job, but I do not think he is in that kind of desperation mode. Like he would sell out anyone or anything just to get an extra win even if it was detrimental to the team long term. I think he has to much integrity for that. But fair enough, that may be me misjudging him. Now he may not want to part with Brissett as it puts the team in bind in terms of QBs if Howell gos down.  But he values draft picks and if they made the right offer I think he would take it and live with Fromm if he had to. 

 

For me, as i like to say about Ron, he's not really future oriented or that win now oriented either.  He plays it in the middle mostly.  Trading Brissett would be a future oriented move and from my observation that's not a card he plays much.  But conversely, he's also not a mortgage the future for the present guy either.  

 

So you are unlikely going to see him make a cap move that would help the present but hurt the future or for that matter make a future move that arguably would help the team long term but would mortgage the present.  Comes off like he doesn't like his food spicy or mild.  He seems to like it medium.

 

I don't blame Ron at all for not expecting him to trade Brissett if an offer came.  I don't think ANY HC running the FO would trade him in the same situation.  That's the problem IMO for having a HC, ANY HC running the FO. 

 

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

1st games can be decieving. I remember delivering a few beatdowns only to end up well below .500.  I have seen many teams come out flat game 1 and make SBs. I think it's game 3 or 4 till you really start to see what kind of team you have. Lines have a chance to play together palyers start to better understand and even anticipate game plans, etc. And for teams with a new OC and QB, they need some time to understand each other from live situations. I expect the play calling to evolvel some over the next few weeks. 

 

 

 

Agree about game 1.  I am not living or dying with any game 1. 

[Rogue Jedi]

35 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree about game 1.  I am not living or dying with any game 1. 

 

Remember when Carson Wentz threw for 300 yds and 4 TD's game 1 last year?

 

Yeah, nothing is answered Week 1. We have to wait and see how things develop with Howell and EB

[HigSkin]

 

[zCommander]

Hopefully Sam holds on to the ball less in week 2. Need to throw away like he said in his presser today. Learning curve. 

 

 

 

[FootballZombie]

I've said it a bunch

Sammy needs to become very familiar with the idea of throwing balls away and not see it as a negative.

 

He was great at it in his first preseason game. If the play was not there, the ball either went outta bounds or he used his legs to get vertical. He was terrible at in his second preseason game and I scrutinized the performance, even though he had phenomenal pass block to support it. I truly thought he was better in the first PS game.

 

He was bad at it again in week 1.

His Oline aint gonna be great, and he is making it far worse by holding the ball.

 

 

If you hit that drop and nothings there, either determine if you have the space to use your legs or yeet that ball into the 1st row. Its a smart play, not a bad one.

[HigSkin]

2 hours ago, zCommander said:

Hopefully Sam holds on to the ball less in week 2. Need to throw away like he said in his presser today. Learning curve. 

 

 

 

 

He talked about this in his presser (throwing balls away instead of running out of bounds for a loss).  2 of those "sacks" were -1 yards where he ran out of bound instead of throwing it away and one was blownup bubble screen pass where he got zero yards. 

 

However, for those other 3 for sure.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by HigSkin

[Hooper]

He's played two games -- one was somewhat meaningless and one was week 1 of the NFL, when even veteran players are adjusting to the speed of the game.

 

The expectations are insane. Almost no young QBs have been anything but up and down in their rookie years. 

 

Personally, I loved what I saw. His ability -- and willingness -- to drive the ball downfield is rare for young QBs. And his ability to bounce back from bad plays. And there are going to be a lot of bad plays because of his inexperience.

 

I really hope Ron -- and Harris -- have more patience with Sam than the fanbase and media. 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Hooper

[MrJL]

 one thing I thought I noticed, which might have been to do with the amount of time he held the ball, was the pocket shrinking on him without anyone actually getting close enough to hit him.  That makes actually throwing a risk of tipped balls

[XxSpearheadxX]

I expect Sam to "autocorrect" a lot of things this week. I rewatched the game and other than a few extremely costly poor decisions, it was a lot of missed adjustments and other things he will fix. Man his redzone presence is phenomenal. He breaths life into our redzone offense I can't remember maybe since... Well since a while. So cysed

[skinny21]

5 minutes ago, MrJL said:

 one thing I thought I noticed, which might have been to do with the amount of time he held the ball, was the pocket shrinking on him without anyone actually getting close enough to hit him.  That makes actually throwing a risk of tipped balls

Good observation.  I think it was much like the sacks - some on Howell holding the ball, some on the oline getting pushed back.  

 

Regarding trading Brisset, Smoot/Paulsen/Moss had an interesting conversation a week or so ago about a team coming together and getting hot.  I think there’s still a big unknown in terms of how this offense - the various parts and the whole - come together down the road.  We have pretty good STs and a potentially top notch defense, so there’s a question of how successful the team could be.  I’d get not wanting to trade Brisset in case you need him for a game or two.

 

Separate, but related point - although Fromm impressed in preseason, I don’t think we (the fans) have enough info as to whether he truly represents capable backup material.  I might feel good about him as the #2, but the team might not feel remotely the same.

 

 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

6 hours ago, method man said:

 

Agreed. You can't be both undersized and immobile to succeed in the NFL. The lack of mobility is Baker's fatal flaw. 

Edit: Nevermind. I see you already said Brees.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[Hooper]

Speaking of undersized, I loved Bryce Young in college, but watching him in week 1.... both of his picks were 100 percent because he is short.