The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Daniel.redskins]

I will admit it when I'm wrong, I was wrong about Wentz. He just doesn't get it. He reminds me a lot of RG3, how he backups up into rushers instead of stepping up in the pocket. He refused to change the call to run on 3rd and 2 when Dallas had 8 men in the box verses our 5 lineman. On the other hand, Cooper Rush was calm, he checked down, he audibles, and threw beautiful 50/50 jump balls.  

 

But, we had to bring someone in other than Hienicke. The draft sucked, so it was really between Trubisky, Jimmy G, or Wentz. We made a move and it didn't work. 

[redskinss]

3 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

We need to bench Carson imo. Tank with Heinicke and get a top QB for the new GM/Coach combo. Maybe Howell can get some snaps once Heine goes down with a broken rib.

In the past I might have felt that facing the embarrassment of giving up on a guy you just traded two picks for so soon would be I'll advised but with this steaming pile of cow dung franchise there's no avoiding embarrassment so you may as well just make whatever decision is in the best interest of your future.

Not that there's any real hope whatever they choose to do.

[CommanderInTheRye]

If you asked me, "What is the ONLY possible long shot hope to turn around this sinking season?"

 

I would answer your question with three words:

 

 

 

 

 

Slinging Sammy Howell!

 

 

 

"His time is coming..."

Edited October 3, 2022 by CommanderInTheRye

[Peregrine]

1 hour ago, Jds0912 said:

What’s gonna happen is th or howell will come in and our team will start looking normal and get some wins. Wentz is simply the worst qb on the roster. Th won 7 games last year with less talent and a tougher schedule. You can’t do anything in this league if you don’t have a good qb. Ron’s obviously not the best head coach/gm but he’s not the biggest problem. See what Ron can do the rest of the season without Wentz as the starter and if it’s still ugly then you fire him. 

Oh, the guy in charge of all the decisions, all the players, and all the coaching for the past 3 years is most definitely the problem.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

41 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

Here's the problem....Teams know that we can't pass protect long enough to get the ball downfield, so all this talk about getting rid of the ball quickly is more difficult when teams are playing tighter underneath coverage.

We’re seeing similar to what we saw with Heineke under center the latter half of last season. Only for different reasons.  With Heineke it was because they knew he couldn’t make the throws.  With Wentz it’s that the OL is giving up immediate pressure and he shrivels.  Defenses playing up, a lot of man, getting grabby at the LOS, slowing our receivers down.  

[philibusters]

11 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

When you're QB backpedals into pressure over and over and over then that pressure is 100% on him.  Not the poor Olinemen who are taught to keep riding their man out so the QB can step up.
 

 

I think I remember the play you referring to and I think the analyst said it was a TE screen so that is why Wentz was back pedaling.  That said, while I can understand why Wentz was back pedaling on that play, I agree with the general sentiment that he does not have a good pocket sense.   He cannot mutliple task that well.  If he is reading the coverage he cannot really respond to the pass rush and if he is responding to the pass rush he cannot really look down field at the same time.   Thus he struggles to help the O-Line by moving around in the pocket.

 

In terms of Wentz, I am disappointed, but not giving up yet.  Last year he was bad for the first 4 or 5 games, then good for about 10 games, then bad for the last 2.   This offense has to figure out what works for it.   I am still have hope, but the last three games have been discouraging.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I went back and watched the game, just the TV Broadcast.

 

Carson wasn't good.

 

But the number of times he had literally no shot because there was a 280lb guy in his face within 1.5 seconds of the snap were too many to count.

 

Did he get rattled?  Yes.  Did that effect him even when he did have time?  Yes.  Would it be great if he didn't get rattled and was able to tell when there was pressure, when there wasn't, and execute when there wasn't?  Yes. However, there aren't a ton of QBs who can do that. If you knock almost all of them around enough, they start to get happy feet.  Even Brady. 

 

If Standig is right and they are trying to hide Wentz by game 4, then they have totally failed.  I was for the trade because in my opinion there was a greater chance of success than with Heinicke, which was a 0% chance of success, starting one of the rookies (note how NONE of them are playing yet), or Trubisky, Mariota, Dalton, Bridgewater.  Wentz had more upside, and I thought it was worth the risk.  I still think it was worth the risk.

 

That said, Ron said over and over that once they got Carson, they had to "protect him and give him weapons."  They were not getting a top 5 QB, or a guy like Mahomes or Allen, who when things break down, they can just "do stuff" and good things generally happen.  Wentz isn't that guy.  I think Ron knew Wentz wasn't that guy.  

 

The weapons are there.  

 

The protection is horrendous.  

 

I still think there is a chance Wentz can be "just fine" this season, but not unless the protection gets a lot better. And I don't see that happening because they have HUGE gaping talent holes in the middle of the line.  I think Leno is fine.  Cosmi, I don't know.  But the middle three, especially after Rouiller went out and with Larson on PUP, are a disaster.  And unless they trade for somebody, help is not on the way.  

 

The other thing is, however, what Ron and Scott Turner are going to do, which maybe they have to, but is the exact opposite of what they need to do, is slow the game down and run the ball more.  Because Indy did that last year with a better running game, and look what happened.   That's bound for failure because we've literally just seen it, and Indy was better at running the ball than we are. 

 

I don't care if you had Joe Montana and Bill Walsh in their prime, if the OL play doesn't get better, and markedly so, it really doesn't matter who the QB is.

 

My deep sinking feeling is it won't, and what Ron and Scott are going to do to compensate is just going to make everything worse.

 

I don't care about letting Flowers go.  But the combination of letting Flowers and Scherff go, knowing Larson was going on PUP, Rouiller and Schweitzer coming back from a season ending injuries, the fact they did nothing but sign Norwell and Turner and draft a guy late is totally criminal negligence on the OL.  

 

With all that said, Wentz deserves some criticism. He got rattled, and started missing easy completions when they were there.  He started feeling pressure when it wasn't there, and missed some guys who were wide open. You have to hit the open guys almost no matter what in this league. And he didn't, and for that, he deserves blame.  

 

However, I think he's going to get an unfair amount of blame, because on at least 40% of his pass attempts against Dallas, he literally had absolutely no shot to do anything good.  In fact, he made a few throws which I think were absolutely insanely good given he was trying to get the ball 20 yards down field while he couldn't step into the throw because the guard/center had lost immediately, and was either being pushed back into his lap or there was a defender standing right there.  

 

A couple of the tipped balls to Terry would have been completions, except Wentz just couldn't step into the throw, so they hung a bit.  But the fact he even got them there was stunning.  

[Llevron]

Please dont call this kid Slingin' Sammy

 

Please. If not for my sanity, for his possible success. Don't. It never works out when we try to fuse past success with present.....whatever the **** this is. Everyone is worse off when we do. 

[FLSkinz83]

Seems like there have been fewer WR's in motion and bunch formation looks.

 

Not that Joe Banner is some great Personnel guy, but I remember he ripped Turner prior to the start of 2020.   Basically calling him a lousy OC.

[lovemaskins]

30 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

I will admit it when I'm wrong, I was wrong about Wentz. He just doesn't get it. He reminds me a lot of RG3, how he backups up into rushers instead of stepping up in the pocket. He refused to change the call to run on 3rd and 2 when Dallas had 8 men in the box verses our 5 lineman. On the other hand, Cooper Rush was calm, he checked down, he audibles, and threw beautiful 50/50 jump balls.  

Rivera and staff don't give him control of the play yet. Said as much in the presser yesterday.  He has to run the play as called and follow his progression.   It's still a new offense for him.  People seem to forget that part when attacking him.

[Voice_of_Reason]

14 minutes ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

Slinging Sammy Howell!

There is absolutely no way on God's Green Earth I am putting a rookie that has any upside whatsoever on the field with this OL and watch him get the Patrick Ramsey treatment and never recover.  

 

Never.  I'm happy to put Hienicke out there to lose and get beat up, and then if he gets injured, sign some other guy to come in, Gilbert whatever his name is, I don't care.  

 

I'd put somebody out there that had no prospective future.  

 

There's no way I would put Howell, or any rookie out there behind this OL. If the OL play improves, maybe.  But not right now.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

33 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

 

I will admit it when I'm wrong, I was wrong about Wentz

 

It’s a bit more complex than this for me.  I was never sold for certain that Wentz was the answer.  Just that he was the best possible option without an anchor of a contract if it didn’t work out.  I also respected Ron enough to trust his decisions on the OL to not blow up in our faces.  I didn’t even give it a second thought.  I wrongly overlooked the drop in talent on the OL.  Had I known how awful Turner and Norwell were, that we have no answer for backup center, etc., I never would have thought there was a chance for Carson to rejuvenate his career.

Edited October 3, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Jds0912]

15 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Oh, the guy in charge of all the decisions, all the players, and all the coaching for the past 3 years is most definitely the problem.

Yeah he is at fault for bad decisions like bringing in Carson and drafting Jamin Davis  but when you have a bad qb it makes the whole team look bad. We have talent on this team. I would bet that if th/howell start the rest of the season we’d end up with 7+ wins and be competitive in the losses. You get to 12+ wins when you have a top 10 qb.   Cousins wasn’t exactly a top 10 guy but we were a decent team with him and those teams were less talented than our current one imo. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

10 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

Seems like there have been fewer WR's in motion and bunch formation looks.

This was my observation as well.  Seemed to me this can only help the OL and keep defenders guessing.  It’s what I thought made the offense look so good against Jax. 

[kingdaddy]

11 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

When you're QB backpedals into pressure over and over and over then that pressure is 100% on him.  Not the poor Olinemen who are taught to keep riding their man out so the QB can step up.  For an NFL QB, who was the #2 pick in the draft, to look so bad is mind blowing!  I'm appalled at how bad his footwork and throwing mechanics are.  There's a reason the Colts Head Coach and Carson's former OC didn't fight to keep Wentz in Indy.  And we're all seeing it clearly now. He can't even beat defenses with audibles or his mind.  He's not getting thru his progressions quickly enough.  Late on throws.  He freezes up as soon as he sees an off color jersey anywhere near him.  

Why is it that Washington keeps making the same mistake of thinking that someone else's leftover QB can be the savior?!?!  Oh yeah, having a Fantasy Football geek for an owner is why.  

 

I know the move will come too late but RR will have to move on from the Carson Wentz experiment.  He is single-handedly holding the team back.  He's not even a good game manager at this point.    If the team is going to suffer thru growing pains then better to do so with a courageous rookie.  

 

And yet, Indy couldn't wait to move on from him.  But Washington is so QB starved the fans and coaching staff will settle for anybody who looks like a prototype, Madden NFL QB.  

I'm with you...one of the most painful things about Sundays for me is watching other QB's who, under duress, move to avoid the pressure and actually make plays. Derek Carr was great yesterday and the Raiders have a terrible pass blocking offensive line. Carr made plays with his legs and was accurate when he did have time to throw; Two things Wentz has not shown he can do the past 3 games. Defenses are dictating to him that they're coming after him and he has no way that he can beat them, not with his head, legs or arm. 

Our defense has hung in the past couple of weeks about as well as a defense can for a half, at some point RR and the offensive coaches are going to need to make changes in the personnel or I would suspect the players are gonna start squawking if they're not at that point already. 

Philly ran Wentz out of town for a reason and now they are paying Hurts peanuts, spent lots of money this winter on improving their roster and are legit Super Bowl contenders because they're gonna get home field advantage for the playoffs the way things are going. We should follow their blueprint, play the kid and load up around him this offseason. My Philly friends are all saying the same thing to me, "we told you, what you have in Wentz is what we lived through his last couple of years here". 

Wentz has been inconsistent and inaccurate from day one in DC and if that hasn't changed by now it's likely not going to. 

[skinny21]

I think Wentz gets at least the next 2 weeks, and I suspect it’s more likely he gets through the Colt’s game as Rivera needs to try to save face.  I don’t see the oline improving all that much, but there is something to be said for continuity… so maybe (hopefully) we see marginal improvement.  

 

Speaking of saving face, if the offense doesn’t play significantly better over the next 4 games, I think they’re going to have to turn to Howell.  They’ll need to try to find a spark, and more importantly, they need to show some hope for the future.  Regardless who plays the rest of the season though, I’d seriously consider putting Heinicke out there against PHI and DAL as the sacrificial lamb.  

 

Side note - if Wentz is benched before hitting the 70% mark, the 3rd rounder we lose should be at least somewhat offset by the comp pick we should get for Scherff (and I’m guessing we get a later round comp pick for Ioannidis as well?).

[NoCalMike]

20 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I went back and watched the game, just the TV Broadcast.

 

Carson wasn't good.

 

But the number of times he had literally no shot because there was a 280lb guy in his face within 1.5 seconds of the snap were too many to count.

 

Did he get rattled?  Yes.  Did that effect him even when he did have time?  Yes.  Would it be great if he didn't get rattled and was able to tell when there was pressure, when there wasn't, and execute when there wasn't?  Yes. However, there aren't a ton of QBs who can do that. If you knock almost all of them around enough, they start to get happy feet.  Even Brady. 

 

If Standig is right and they are trying to hide Wentz by game 4, then they have totally failed.  I was for the trade because in my opinion there was a greater chance of success than with Heinicke, which was a 0% chance of success, starting one of the rookies (note how NONE of them are playing yet), or Trubisky, Mariota, Dalton, Bridgewater.  Wentz had more upside, and I thought it was worth the risk.  I still think it was worth the risk.

 

That said, Ron said over and over that once they got Carson, they had to "protect him and give him weapons."  They were not getting a top 5 QB, or a guy like Mahomes or Allen, who when things break down, they can just "do stuff" and good things generally happen.  Wentz isn't that guy.  I think Ron knew Wentz wasn't that guy.  

 

The weapons are there.  

 

The protection is horrendous.  

 

I still think there is a chance Wentz can be "just fine" this season, but not unless the protection gets a lot better. And I don't see that happening because they have HUGE gaping talent holes in the middle of the line.  I think Leno is fine.  Cosmi, I don't know.  But the middle three, especially after Rouiller went out and with Larson on PUP, are a disaster.  And unless they trade for somebody, help is not on the way.  

 

The other thing is, however, what Ron and Scott Turner are going to do, which maybe they have to, but is the exact opposite of what they need to do, is slow the game down and run the ball more.  Because Indy did that last year with a better running game, and look what happened.   That's bound for failure because we've literally just seen it, and Indy was better at running the ball than we are. 

 

 

 

Agree with all this.  There is plenty to criticize about Wentz, but I was truly getting a kick out of people in the gameday thread saying things like "why doesn't he just.....like Brady"  as if Tom Brady caliber QBs are at an abundance in the NFL.  No, there is a reason why in the NFL if you have a top 5 caliber QB, it is likely that team will be a constant playoff team with the chance to win it all almost every season while 25ish teams in the NFL are playing the QB carousel every few seasons because the "good QB" they have eventually hits a wall at some point. 

The whole "just shift in pocket to avoid pressure" thing.  Yes, ideally you want a QB to do that, however there is a huge difference when you are a Brady or Big Ben that play behind good O-lines so maybe you have to shift around 3-5 times a game and are prepared for it, versus damn near every time you drop back you have to be worried about being face planted before a WR even hits the break in their route.   

 

Also, the Wentz holding the ball too long thing, well guess what, the coaches had about what, seven seasons worth of film on him?  Whatever faults he has shouldn't have been a mystery and if you bring in a QB vet with certain attributes in his game then you have to design the connective tissue around him to that style of play.  That is how coaching works or is supposed to at least. 

 

At the end of the day, the Commanders went out and grabbed a capable but flawed QB and did a really poor job addressing the most important factor in a QB's success, the O-line. 

[DJHJR86]

 

 

[CobraCommander]

3 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

 

[Redskins 2021]

 If this continues we will have to bench Wentz before he gets to 70 precent snaps played. 

 

If we lose the next 3 games [ Tenn,Gb,Chi] we are a total rebuild. 

 

Do we have any players we can trade for draft picks next year other teams would want or we would be willing to trade?

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

[Panninho]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

We’re seeing similar to what we saw with Heineke under center the latter half of last season. Only for different reasons.  With Heineke it was because they knew he couldn’t make the throws.  With Wentz it’s that the OL is giving up immediate pressure and he shrivels.  Defenses playing up, a lot of man, getting grabby at the LOS, slowing our receivers down.  

It's also that they know when Wentz is forced to throw 15-20y over the middle, it won't be long until he sails one high right in the arms of a defender. I think they dare him to throw in that window and trust their ability to generate pressure to make that even harder. 

[theTruthTeller]

2 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

Wentz has had 3 good seasons over the course of his career.  Frank Reich (or his system) was involved in all 3.  This season is looking like the 2020 season all over again.  He's not comfortable in this system.  Yes, the offensive line has been bad, but how much of that falls on Wentz?  This was the same old song and dance with the Eagles in 2020.  But nothing is going to happen.  He's going to play the entire year, barring injury.  He shouldn't, but he will.  I'm just glad they 'finally found a quarterback'. 

To go further on your point:

1. Wentz is not a plug-and-play quarterback.  He is a long way from "checking all the boxes".  There were numerous articles written about this long before the trade.  He has a lot of shortcomings and at the top of the list is "reading defenses".  He needs the entire offense built around avoiding his shortcomings.

2. Other than the Super Bowl year, he has never had a really successful season from a W-L standpoint.  His second best season was 2019 when he went 9-7.  His only other winning season was last year when he went 9-8 on a team that had legit Super Bowl aspirations.

3. In his magical Super Bowl season, he was 11-2 before getting hurt.  Nick Foles came in and went 2-1 and ran the table in the playoffs.  Nick Foles isn't a top-50 quarterback in the NFL and never has been.  The 2017 Eagles were just good enough to win with limited QBs.  Carson Wentz=Nick Foles=Trent Dilfer.

4. The OL is a huge problem for Wentz, but Wentz is a huge problem for the OL.  Wentz has no plan in the pocket.  If you can stomach it, re-watch yesterday's game.  Cooper Rush has no chance of ever being a full-time starter in the NFL and the only physical advantage he has over Wentz is that he is slightly more mobile.  But he succeeds because he is decisive.  And by decisive, I don't mean he dumps the ball off to a RB whenever he feels heat.  Dallas's OL has problems, too, at every position except RG and Cooper takes the heat off of them.

 

Part of the problem is coaching, for sure. But a guy going into his 7th year as a starter just has to be better than Wentz, especially if he is making close to $30M. 

[zCommander]

On 9/27/2022 at 11:29 AM, Cooleyfan1993 said:

5? Where did the other 2 mysteriously come from…..? Did he have 2 INTs on Sunday that nobody else noticed? Maybe a ghost intercepted his passes🤔

 

On 9/27/2022 at 11:36 AM, zCommander said:

 

The two he is going to have on Sunday. I was predicting the future. 🤣

 

@Cooleyfan1993 sorry my prediction came true...lol

 

[Warhead36]

Yeah the offense was basically a carbon copy of the Heinicke offense last year except we did take an occasional deep shot(none of which had any chance). The D just huddled upa round the line because they had no fear we could convert anything downfield and they were right.

 

Its a combination of bad OL, Wentz, and poor playcalling/scheming.