Next Day Thread: WFT vs. Giants

[skinny21]

St Juste reminds me of how I viewed Breeland his rookie year.  Game never looked too big for him, coverage was surprisingly good, and he was often just inches or a foot away from making a play on the ball.  As with Breeland, with more experience I think Juice will be making a lot more plays and develop into a good corner for us.  Really nice pick by the FO, IMO.

 

If he were our weak link in the secondary, I think we would be in good shape back there… or at least we could live with that/make do.  Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be the case.

[Skinsinparadise]

Just to piggyback off of a point @Jumbomade which is Kyle Shanahan and McVay were ripped in different threads when they were here for being over their heads and not good at their jobs in real time when they were here.  Both considered now by most as maybe two of the top 3 playcallers in the league and are lionized here now that they are gone but weren't appreciated that much when they were here.  Though from what i recall people ended up backing off McVay towards the end of his tenure but not so much Kyle.  And he said Scott Turner seems to have some respect elsewhere.

 

To play off of that point,  Paulsen did a nice job (and he leans on the cynical side typically) showcasing Scott's play calling from the Giants game. How he used 13 personnel to set up a play for Terry.  How he set the Giants up on a previous play to make the McKissic wheel route play work, etc.   Scott does have some fans out there.   He even on occasion gets mentioned as a dark horse candidate for HC elsewhere.   

 

Personally, I've not yet landed on a opinion about him.  but I do agree with @Jumbos point that believing our offensive coordinator isn't good is somewhat of a tradition here and that point over time isn't always borne out.  I think some of us now would kill to have Kyle and McVay running this offense.  Personally, I was a critic of Mike Shanahan the defensive mind and the GM but always felt that he was a genius on offense, I was mixed at times about Kyle (wanted more committment to the run) but mostly liked him.  If i recall I liked McVay.  Not sure what I think yet of Scott but I am defintely not in the camp he's in over his head, just yet. 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[NoCalMike]

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Just to piggyback off of a point @Jumbomade which is Kyle Shanahan and McVay were ripped in different threads when they were here for being over their heads and not good at their jobs in real time when they were here.  Both considered now by most as maybe two of the top 3 playcallers in the league and are lionized here now that they are gone but weren't appreciated that much when they were here.  Though from what i recall people ended up backing off McVay towards the end of his tenure but not so much Kyle.  And he said Scott Turner seems to have some respect elsewhere.

To be fair there was a contingent of the fan base, myself included, that didn't have a problem with their schemes so much, in fact I was a fan of how QB friendly their offenses seemed to be, however it was their actual play calling at times that seemed to be putting the cart before the horse.  They would sometimes randomly call the weird gadget-y play in the middle of a drive that threw it off rhythm or balance.  That stigma followed Kyle Shanahan to Atlanta but as a head coach he seems to have settle down in that area.  He also has a team that was built from the ground up in San Francisco, the speed on offense there is ridiculous. He's made Jimmy G look like a very good QB at times, but the fact that they drafted a QB this offseason shows there is more to that offense that don't think the guy can get done necessarily.  As fas as McVay goes, he was gone from here before he truly developed and shined.  I wouldn't have been opposed to him sticking around longer but he was hired amidst that era where it seemed like any O-coordinator under 35 was being given a HC job due to every team wanting to be "ahead of the curve" of the next trends on offense.

[Silvernon]

I have no issues with the game Scott Turner just called.

 

Like @Skinsinparadisesaid, more times than not this fanbase has lambasted the OCs and two specifically have gone on to have a league wide reputation as the best in the business. 

 

Could have seen more of Logan Thomas and less of Humphries in the passing attack, but otherwise. 

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

St Juste reminds me of how I viewed Breeland his rookie year.  Game never looked too big for him, coverage was surprisingly good, and he was often just inches or a foot away from making a play on the ball.  As with Breeland, with more experience I think Juice will be making a lot more plays and develop into a good corner for us.  Really nice pick by the FO, IMO.

 

If he were our weak link in the secondary, I think we would be in good shape back there… or at least we could live with that/make do.  Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be the case.

Yeah that's the thing about Juste. Its not like he's getting ROASTED. He's just barely getting beat, which is still getting beat in today's NFL of course but there have also been a few plays where he has really tight coverage, like the 3rd down on the Giants 2nd to possession where he forces Slayton I believe to catch a ball out of bounds. He's gonna be a fine tight press man corner, but he just doesn't have the speed to be very effective in zone.

[Silvernon]

1 hour ago, HigSkin said:

FWIW - Listening to The Junkies interview with Shawn Springs yesterday and his view on this defense is it's too vanilla or standard base.  They are relying too much on the front 4 to get home and something RR did a lot in Carolina.  Said they don't have an elite shutdown corner that you need to do a lot of blitzing nor an elite LB (although he wouldn't say it directly but eluded to it).  He suggested to fix it, they're going to have to take more chances with disguised blitz's and bringing Collins down in the box.  Also said he is not worried about Chase Young, he's elite but needs the other guys to step up so teams stop double and triple teaming him.  

Kyle Rudolph was blocking Chase one-on-one.

 

 

 

 

[KDawg]

I am tired of the double/triple team narrative with Chase Young. There are times teams are chipping him. Absolutely. But he has faced a ton of 1 on 1s and lost this season. 

 

Bringing Collins into the box is a pretty bad idea, too, in my opinion. Not a great coverage guy or tackler. Big hitter? Sure. 

[Wildbunny]

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

To be fair there was a contingent of the fan base, myself included, that didn't have a problem with their schemes so much, in fact I was a fan of how QB friendly their offenses seemed to be, however it was their actual play calling at times that seemed to be putting the cart before the horse.  They would sometimes randomly call the weird gadget-y play in the middle of a drive that threw it off rhythm or balance.  That stigma followed Kyle Shanahan to Atlanta but as a head coach he seems to have settle down in that area.

The weird gadget play call can be done about almost every coach in the NFL.

That's like complaining about clock management. You can question every HC about it. Even the best ones.

 

Just like a player can fumble, throw an int, miss a tackle or whatever, coaches make mistakes too.

But we've been sucking ass for so long that we just cannot accept those mistakes anymore.

[Silvernon]

23 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I am tired of the double/triple team narrative with Chase Young. There are times teams are chipping him. Absolutely. But he has faced a ton of 1 on 1s and lost this season. 

 

Bringing Collins into the box is a pretty bad idea, too, in my opinion. Not a great coverage guy or tackler. Big hitter? Sure. 

I just re-watched the game this morning and didn't see many plays he was doubled or chipped. 

 

He needs to learn from Ioannidis and Allen how to power through your opponent. Get aggressive and physical - bully your way to the QB.

[Warhead36]

Yeah Young doesn't really get doubled that often. At this point TEs are 1 on 1 blocking him successfully going back to the playoff game last year. He is regressing. I expect him to get better, but he is nowhere near the dominant presence we thought we'd get by now.

 

I agree overall with Springs's take. I don't blame Del Rio too much for the D scheme, with as much as we've invested in our defensive personnel(both in terms of high draft picks and salary), its not unreasonable to expect our guys to win 1 on 1 matchups more often and they're simply not. He needs to realize that our players aren't as good as any of us thought they would be. Its time to start being more aggressive and creative.

[bh32]

1 hour ago, Silvernon said:

I just re-watched the game this morning and didn't see many plays he was doubled or chipped. 

 

He needs to learn from Ioannidis and Allen how to power through your opponent. Get aggressive and physical - bully your way to the QB.

Young better start playing better or it won't be long before fans start turning on him..

[Vanguard]

47 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah Young doesn't really get doubled that often. At this point TEs are 1 on 1 blocking him successfully going back to the playoff game last year. He is regressing. I expect him to get better, but he is nowhere near the dominant presence we thought we'd get by now.

It’s been like two games into the season.

[NewCliche21]

28 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

It’s been like two games into the season.

 

With the number 2 pick, you're expecting a Reggie White.  With the hype machine, you're expecting the guy to make Reggie White look typical.

I'm a MASSIVE Young fan, but I've been hugely disappointed with just how poorly he's been playing.  Face of the franchise at this point but certainly not earning it.

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

I am tired of the double/triple team narrative with Chase Young. There are times teams are chipping him. Absolutely. But he has faced a ton of 1 on 1s and lost this season. 

 

Bringing Collins into the box is a pretty bad idea, too, in my opinion. Not a great coverage guy or tackler. Big hitter? Sure. 

 

Yeah, I want him to be an All Pro SO BADLY, but he's looked, from a civilian perspective, the worst on the line.  I hate saying that.

[Silvernon]

5 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

With the number 2 pick, you're expecting a Reggie White.  With the hype machine, you're expecting the guy to make Reggie White look typical.

I'm a MASSIVE Young fan, but I've been hugely disappointed with just how poorly he's been playing.  Face of the franchise at this point but certainly not earning it.

 

Yeah, I want him to be an All Pro SO BADLY, but he's looked, from a civilian perspective, the worst on the line.  I hate saying that.

That is the truth. A #2OA pick should be the high performer of this line - he looks like the 4th best.

[Darrell Green Fan]

I recall we had the same comments regarding Chase a year ago. Many of us expected more big plays, when they came later in the year we were called idiots.  

 

Like others I was and remain a huge Chase Young fan. But I too was expecting a big leap his second year and as posted so far he has regressed. I'm tired of all the TV coverage he gets while making very few plays, he simply has not earned it yet.  Maybe he's a slow starter?  Well that can't be for this generational talent in his second year.    

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

To be fair there was a contingent of the fan base, myself included, that didn't have a problem with their schemes so much, in fact I was a fan of how QB friendly their offenses seemed to be, however it was their actual play calling at times that seemed to be putting the cart before the horse.  They would sometimes randomly call the weird gadget-y play in the middle of a drive that threw it off rhythm or balance.  That stigma followed Kyle Shanahan to Atlanta but as a head coach he seems to have settle down in that area.  He also has a team that was built from the ground up in San Francisco, the speed on offense there is ridiculous. He's made Jimmy G look like a very good QB at times, but the fact that they drafted a QB this offseason shows there is more to that offense that don't think the guy can get done necessarily.  As fas as McVay goes, he was gone from here before he truly developed and shined.  I wouldn't have been opposed to him sticking around longer but he was hired amidst that era where it seemed like any O-coordinator under 35 was being given a HC job due to every team wanting to be "ahead of the curve" of the next trends on offense.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't fault anyone for having a position pro or con any coordinator.    Just piggybacking on the point that sometimes we don't know what we got until its gone.  As for Turner, I am sort of agnostic on him.  So I got no issues with the critics or the pro Scott takes.    i do notice that Scott has his fans in the mix in the NFL work just like Kyle and McVay did.  

 

My take though as for the head coach thought that some say about Scott, that I don't see.  He seems a bit too mild-laid back like his dad, he doesn't come off like a head coach type to me.  But who knows?

2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I recall we had the same comments regarding Chase a year ago. Many of us expected more big plays, when they came later in the year we were called idiots.  

 

Like others I was and remain a huge Chase Young fan. But I too was expecting a big leap his second year and as posted so far he has regressed. I'm tired of all the TV coverage he gets while making very few plays, he simply has not earned it yet.  Maybe he's a slow starter?  Well that can't be for this generational talent in his second year.    

 

Many sack artists from what I noticed get sacks in spurts.  Heck Kerrigan among others would.  I think it will come with Chase.  I haven't rewatched the Giants game yet but I did rewatch much of the Chargers game.  it wasn't Chase's best game but he had some moments.  At a minimum he was a ball of energy in that game so he didn't come off like a dude resting on his laurels or playing flat.  

[max21]

1 minute ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I recall we had the same comments regarding Chase a year ago. Many of us expected more big plays, when they came later in the year we were called idiots.  

 

Like others I was and remain a huge Chase Young fan. But I too was expecting a big leap his second year and as posted so far he has regressed. I'm tired of all the TV coverage he gets while making very few plays, he simply has not earned it yet.  Maybe he's a slow starter?  Well that can't be for this generational talent in his second year.    

I was one of the very few that had negative comments regarding Chase last year and got torched. I basically gave up and then he finished the year strong so I finally bought it. I watch him basically the entire game and don’t see much of any technique to his rushes. He needs to try more of a swim move or get lower on the tackle and use his strength to get by, it’s pretty frustrating to watch him so far this year. I want him to be the dominant von Miller face of the franchise type player so bad but he’s no where near that. 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah that's the thing about Juste. Its not like he's getting ROASTED. 

To me, Juste looks the part early. The dude is long. I think he’s gonna be a blanket guy soon. Put him out there on an island and let him play. 
 

I think Juste and DBrown look the most comfortable early out of the draft picks. I think we can safely pencil them in as solid contributors in their rookie year, but Juste has that “Pro Bowl” look to me. Time will tell.

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

I am tired of the double/triple team narrative with Chase Young. There are times teams are chipping him. Absolutely. But he has faced a ton of 1 on 1s and lost this season. 

 

Bringing Collins into the box is a pretty bad idea, too, in my opinion. Not a great coverage guy or tackler. Big hitter? Sure. 

 

Collins has been a poor tackler and bad in coverage.  He might be the only safety/LB who is a good blitzer on the team.  I'd love to see them try Jamin on that front.  Kentucky didn't rush Jamin much but the few times they did in the games I watched he showed potential.  One of his coaches said they considered early in his career making him an edge rusher. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Darrell Green Fan]

31 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Many sack artists from what I noticed get sacks in spurts.  Heck Kerrigan among others would.  I think it will come with Chase.  I haven't rewatched the Giants game yet but I did rewatch much of the Chargers game.  it wasn't Chase's best game but he had some moments.  At a minimum he was a ball of energy in that game so he didn't come off like a dude resting on his laurels or playing flat.  

 

From what I've seen the top sack guys are coming all game, they eventually get there but they put pressure throughout the game. Someone mentioned Von Miller, I've been waiting on Chase to be a guy like that. Now he is getting blocked one on one and losing most every battle. Yes he is playing hard but that's not good enough for a guy with his reputation. He needs to start making big plays again. He needs to be the first guy off the ball and beating his man to the edge as we saw in college.  

 

We need to face reality, this should be a real concern.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

With the number 2 pick, you're expecting a Reggie White.  With the hype machine, you're expecting the guy to make Reggie White look typical.

This is bonkers. Maybe go watch some Reggie videos. He was as good as Brady is to the QB position. There will never be another Reggie White.

 

Let alone a guy 2 games into his second season of his career? 

 

I have a mountain of respect for you on here, but thats just crazy talk. 

 

I think Chase has a very Bruce Smith type ceiling, but Reggie was other-worldly.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

From what I've seen the top sack guys are coming all game, they eventually get there but they put pressure throughout the game. Someone mentioned Von Miller, I've been waiting on Chase to be a guy like that. Now he is getting blocked one on one and losing most every battle. Yes he is playing hard but that's not good enough for a guy with his reputation. He needs to start making big plays again. He needs to be the first guy off the ball and beating his man to the edge as we saw in college.  

 

We need to face reality, this should be a real concern.

 

As for the we need to face reality stuff -- that's opinion.  It's cool to see it that way but personally I got no concern about Chase.  If we are in game 8 and I see no production, I'll echo the concern.

 

I am one of the people here who fell in love with his play watching his college games.  I don't think he's overhyped-overrrated.   I am 10 out of 10 as for loving his potential.  So I am a tough sell as to worrying about him this early.

 

I recall someone on the Chase thread last year played down him being double teamed, saying that wasn't happening.  At the time I had no idea, I am not zeroing in on any one player while watching games to notice trends.  So I sat down one night and watched every Chase play.  And If I recall just short of 20 snaps where he was double teamed.  I posted all those clips on the thread.

 

Shawn Springs suggests he's being double teamed and others not so much and they should make plays and take advantage of Chase's double teams.  You got me if he's right.  I charted just a few plays in the SD game and saw a couple where Chase was double teamed and Sweat wasn't.  But I didn't go deep in that game where I studied Chase.  I'll get to it.  Not saying Chase shouldn't beat double teams or chips but its a bit harder to do that than have a one on one matchup.   And who knows maybe Chase isn't being double teamed much, I'll get to it and see.

 

But my overall point is I think Chase will be fine regardless.  And if I am wrong, I'll own it. 😀

Edited September 18, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

Now im watching Reggie White highlights. Insane. Remember when he threw Chris Carter at Warren Moon? Lol. 

[Burgold]

5 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

To be fair

From what I remember, there were some who were frustrated that McVay and Shanny Jr. strayed from the run too easily and too often, but most of us were happy overall with the  offense. In fact, I remember some wishing we could fire Mike Shanny, but keep his son even though we knew that wasn't possible. No one was really happy about McVay leaving though some thought it was premature for him to be offered a HC gig. For the most part, our ire was reserved for the awful, awful defenses. But yeah, you're probably right that there was a grumbling contingent.

 

Mind you, finding a contingent on ES that's unhappy about something... that's about the lowest hanging fruit possible. There's probably a contingent on ES who believes that RFK wasn't in Washington or that Darrell Green wouldn't have the speed to play in the modern NFL. I mean there's a contingent on ES that doesn't believe in gravity. And there's certainly a contingent that doesn't believe the Earth is round.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, Burgold said:

From what I remember, there were some who were frustrated that McVay and Shanny Jr. strayed from the run too easily and too often, but most of us were happy overall with the  offense. In fact, I remember some wishing we could fire Mike Shanny, but keep his son even though we knew that wasn't possible. No one was really happy about McVay leaving though some thought it was premature for him to be offered a HC gig. For the most part, our ire was reserved for the awful, awful defenses. But yeah, you're probably right that there was a grumbling contingent.

 

Mind you, finding a contingent on ES that's unhappy about something... that's about the lowest hanging fruit possible. There's probably a contingent on ES who believes that RFK wasn't in Washington or that Darrell Green wouldn't have the speed to play in the modern NFL. I mean there's a contingent on ES that doesn't believe in gravity. And there's certainly a contingent that doesn't believe the Earth is round.

 

Agree that you can find a contingent about anything.  But the Kyle critics were not a small straggler group, that much I can recall.