Next Day Thread: WFT vs. Giants

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Are DEs immune to sophomore slumps? Yeah, yeah, #2 overall, has to be perfect every game and 2 off games is the end of the world. But is it absurd for a DE to have a sophomore slump?

It’s not just 2 games. He’s been silent for the last 3. And not just quiet. But silent. 
 

He doesn’t need to be perfect. He needs to be better. There is a difference.

 

And our coaches can help him.

[Malapropismic Depository]

It occurred to me, how pissed the Giants must be right now, after 2 recent games.

First, we steal a playoff spot from them in the last game of 2020, because, according to them, the Eagles tanked the last game.

Then they lose to us, in a game, in which they could have won, if any one of about 10 plays goes their way, most of which they thought were unfair.

Oh well.

What do they say about bad teams ?

First of all, a 6-10 team shouldn't make the playoffs, and surely shouldn't be mad about not making the playoffs.

Secondly, the Giants on Thursday, did what bad teams do.

[Koolblue13]

45 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

It occurred to me, how pissed the Giants must be right now, after 2 recent games.

First, we steal a playoff spot from them in the last game of 2020, because, according to them, the Eagles tanked the last game.

Then they lose to us, in a game, in which they could have won, if any one of about 10 plays goes their way, most of which they thought were unfair.

Oh well.

What do they say about bad teams ?

First of all, a 6-10 team shouldn't make the playoffs, and surely shouldn't be mad about not making the playoffs.

Secondly, the Giants on Thursday, did what bad teams do.

Karma from stealing our cap money years ago. F Mara.

[NickyJ]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

It’s not just 2 games. He’s been silent for the last 3. And not just quiet. But silent. 
 

He doesn’t need to be perfect. He needs to be better. There is a difference.

 

And our coaches can help him.

The last 3 games being the Giants and Chargers this season, and the Super Bowl champions?

 

Yeah, he needs to do better, but at the beginning of last season, we told ourselves that we shouldn't expect amazing stats all the time in his first year or two in the league because it was turning into major over-hyping. I don't see a reason to change those expectations now. He's played 1 season + 2 games, there's all the time in the world to get out of a sophomore slump.

Edited September 19, 2021 by NickyJ

[KDawg]

14 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

The last 3 games being the Giants and Chargers this season, and the Super Bowl champions?

 

Yeah, he needs to do better, but at the beginning of last season, we told ourselves that we shouldn't expect amazing stats all the time in his first year or two in the league because it was turning into major over-hyping. I don't see a reason to change those expectations now. He's played 1 season + 2 games, there's all the time in the world to get out of a sophomore slump.

Why do you think this is purely about stats?

 

Its not.

[NickyJ]

Just now, KDawg said:

Why do you think this is purely about stats?

 

Its not.

Stats are generally a reflection of the player's success on the field. I never implied that he wasn't performing below average on the field. I'm implying that during a slump, players put up worse stats because he's performing worse on the field. But that's all I think it is: A slump. I don't get the hand wringing over it. He showed that he has the goods last year, he's shown that he has the right attitude. Growing pains are to be expected, even for top 5 picks.

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Stats are generally a reflection of the player's success on the field. I never implied that he wasn't performing below average on the field. I'm implying that during a slump, players put up worse stats because he's performing worse on the field. But that's all I think it is: A slump. I don't get the hand wringing over it. He showed that he has the goods last year, he's shown that he has the right attitude. Growing pains are to be expected, even for top 5 picks.

He has not shown he can use his hands. He’s shown that he can bullrush and speed rush. He has not improved hand usage since college. Which I said was my ONLY hesitation on him. If he starts working his hands more he’s going to be phenomenal for a long time. But tackles have seen his current moves and he is getting nothing done on them.

 

This is part of growing. Most haven’t given up on the guy. I sure haven’t. Pointing out that he’s not playing his best ball… and why he isn’t… is t hand wringing.

[Darrell Green Fan]

1 hour ago, NickyJ said:

Stats are generally a reflection of the player's success on the field. I never implied that he wasn't performing below average on the field. I'm implying that during a slump, players put up worse stats because he's performing worse on the field. But that's all I think it is: A slump. I don't get the hand wringing over it. He showed that he has the goods last year, he's shown that he has the right attitude. Growing pains are to be expected, even for top 5 picks.

 

Last season he started off slow, then obviously played much better.  It's not out of the question for fans to expect him to continue with this pattern, the fact that he has reverted to showing basically nothing (again against a terrible OL) should give fans reason for concern.  

[Burgold]

42 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Last season he started off slow, then obviously played much better.  It's not out of the question for fans to expect him to continue with this pattern, the fact that he has reverted to showing basically nothing (again against a terrible OL) should give fans reason for concern.  

My concern is whether all his efforts to be a "business man" took away from his football preparation. I've nothing against a side hustle and it'd be great for a Washington player to be a superstar that gets national commercials, but only if it doesn't go to his head or impact his conditioning.

 

Mind you, I have no idea if it has or did and really there's no way to know. I also suspect we are being "extreme" in our evaluation and concern over Young's performance so far. Still, expectations are high and should be high for him.

[CobraCommander]

5 minutes ago, Burgold said:

My concern is whether all his efforts to be a "business man" took away from his football preparation. I've nothing against a side hustle and it'd be great for a Washington player to be a superstar that gets national commercials, but only if it doesn't go to his head or impact his conditioning.

 

Mind you, I have no idea if it has or did and really there's no way to know. I also suspect we are being "extreme" in our evaluation and concern over Young's performance so far. Still, expectations are high and should be high for him.

I feel like he’s gonna turn it on but yeah. Part of me feels like he thinks he made it already because he got droy. Problem is there’s a pretty big gap between droy and dpoy which is what he should be getting close to year 2. Instead he seems to have not improved over the offseason and is going through the same steps to achievements he did his rookie year. There’s no leap forward. 

[Darth Tater]

In my time as a Washington fan, how we fare against the Giants has been an excellent predictor of the season.  Until last year, Gibbs was the only coach to get to the playoffs in a season after getting swept by the Giants. All of our coaches who swept the gmen in a non-playoff year got fired or left on bad terms (Allen). Gruden was the only coach we've had who got at least 3 years who never swept them although Pardee did it only in his last year here.

[Darrell Green Fan]

14 hours ago, Burgold said:

My concern is whether all his efforts to be a "business man" took away from his football preparation. I've nothing against a side hustle and it'd be great for a Washington player to be a superstar that gets national commercials, but only if it doesn't go to his head or impact his conditioning.

 

Mind you, I have no idea if it has or did and really there's no way to know. I also suspect we are being "extreme" in our evaluation and concern over Young's performance so far. Still, expectations are high and should be high for him.

 

I had this terrible thought that Chase will be another Lavar Arrington.  Please Football God do not let that happen to us, we've been through enough.  

[Going Commando]

Nah, Chase is the real deal.  IMO the way he takes the next step is mental.  The energy and physicality are there.  He just needs to read the game better and I suspect he needs to do better film and prep work to come into games with better rush plans.  Strings of moves he can go to tailored to the opponent in order to win more downs.  That stuff comes in time with experience.

[Skinsinparadise]

On 9/18/2021 at 9:38 PM, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I watch Chase on most defensive snaps. I didn't see a whole lot of double teams on Sunday. On one play he was coming from the left side, was blocked fell down, stood up and fell down again. I'm not sure if that was against the injured starter or the backup but either way, well...

 

Again I'm in the tank for Chase as well but at this point in his career he should be showing more.

 

I'll rewatch the Giants game eventually.  Has Game Pass stopped showing coaches tape?  I haven't seen it up yet. 

 

For me I did see some disruptive plays when rewatching some of the Chargers game.  Sacks tend to come in spurts for many pass rushers.   My scale of worry about Chase on a scale of 0-10 right now is zero.    I am convinced it will come.  I think he's a special player.  I got almost no concern he ends up just good. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

IMO Chase's worst case career outcome is Cam Jordan.  He's really smart, he's hyper-athletic (way more athletic than Jordan) and he's super competitive and driven.  He doesn't get in his own way like LaVar either.  He is going to be an All Pro eventually, and he's going to be the cornerstone for the D.  He's the only player on our roster that I could see eventually winding up in the Hall, if all goes well.

 

I'm more concerned about Montez Sweat.  I think he's going to command a gargantuan salary that he won't ever really justify.  Montez is already 25 and he's just kind of... dumb.  Dumb player (and I think he proved in TC he's dumb as a brick generally too) who doesn't see the game the way the elite edge players do.  He's so ungodly big and athletic that he will make plays and make it difficult to let him go.  But I don't think he'll ever be consistent and locked-in dominant. 

 

I am totally confident in Allen, Payne, and Chase and think keeping them is a no-brainer.  You sign them to whatever dollar amount it takes.  Montez is the hard decision.  If he gets a top DE salary and you've only got like an 11-12 AV player for your money, then that's not great.  I think there is going to come a very difficult point where the savvy move is to sell high on Montez, but pulling the trigger on that trade will be very questionable.  And I also think we could get stuck in the franchise tag cycle again with him.

[Burgundy Yoda]

24 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

IMO Chase's worst case career outcome is Cam Jordan.  He's really smart, he's hyper-athletic (way more athletic than Jordan) and he's super competitive and driven.  He doesn't get in his own way like LaVar either.  He is going to be an All Pro eventually, and he's going to be the cornerstone for the D.  He's the only player on our roster that I could see eventually winding up in the Hall, if all goes well.

 

I'm more concerned about Montez Sweat.  I think he's going to command a gargantuan salary that he won't ever really justify.  Montez is already 25 and he's just kind of... dumb.  Dumb player (and I think he proved in TC he's dumb as a brick generally too) who doesn't see the game the way the elite edge players do.  He's so ungodly big and athletic that he will make plays and make it difficult to let him go.  But I don't think he'll ever be consistent and locked-in dominant. 

 

I am totally confident in Allen, Payne, and Chase and think keeping them is a no-brainer.  You sign them to whatever dollar amount it takes.  Montez is the hard decision.  If he gets a top DE salary and you've only got like an 11-12 AV player for your money, then that's not great.  I think there is going to come a very difficult point where the savvy move is to sell high on Montez, but pulling the trigger on that trade will be very questionable.  And I also think we could get stuck in the franchise tag cycle again with him.

Payne should be let go before Sweat. He is good but we just paid our best interior DL. Sweat gets a lot of flak for his comments in the off-season but as far as his play goes, he creates more consistent pressure than Chase does. His bull-rush is miles better than Chase's and he's not washed out of plays nearly as often as Young is. 

 

Chase for whatever reason severely lacks power in his pass rush and for someone as big as he is, it's kind of strange. 

 

Edit: I feel like the best case scenario for us is a Khalil Mack type of trade for Sweat where we net a 1st rounder for him. He needs a huge season for that to happen though. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[Going Commando]

58 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Payne should be let go before Sweat. He is good but we just paid our best interior DL. Sweat gets a lot of flak for his comments in the off-season but as far as his play goes, he creates more consistent pressure than Chase does. His bull-rush is miles better than Chase's and he's not washed out of plays nearly as often as Young is. 

 

Chase for whatever reason severely lacks power in his pass rush and for someone as big as he is, it's kind of strange. 

 

Edit: I feel like the best case scenario for us is a Khalil Mack type of trade for Sweat where we net a 1st rounder for him. He needs a huge season for that to happen though. 

 

Montez has elite length.  That helps him hold up in contain.  But that's the only the he has over Chase IMO.  I think Chase is already a better player than Montez and he's three years younger.  Chase sees the field way better and has much better range.  And he's much more of a leader.

 

My concern with Montez is that we'll eventually get stuck paying for two Chase Youngs but only have one.  Montez is closer to his ceiling then I think we want to acknowledge.  I've been making the Danielle Hunter comparison with him since his draft year, but I just don't think he's going to reach that level.  Hunter is only a year older than him, and even at LSU, I felt like he saw the game better and already knew how to play through his blocks in a way that Montez doesn't.

 

I've had faith in Montez but I'm getting antsy and starting to lean towards "sell high" on him.

 

Payne isn't going to cost what Sweat does, and signing Allen doesn't cope with what we would lose if Payne walked.  He performs a role that Allen could not IMO.  And I would not let a one tech with his level of range, durability, and energy walk.  Those players are too tough to find, most guys are tubs of goo who can't give you more than 25 good reps a game and they'll almost never make a play outside of their area.  To me, Payne is the unsung backbone of the D, plus he's a big game dude who has a knack for going beast mode in the most important games.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Nah, Chase is the real deal.  IMO the way he takes the next step is mental.  The energy and physicality are there.  He just needs to read the game better and I suspect he needs to do better film and prep work to come into games with better rush plans.  Strings of moves he can go to tailored to the opponent in order to win more downs.  That stuff comes in time with experience.

 

Yeah I agree with this.

 

One of the things that worried me a little about Chase was that it sounded like he was focusing a ton this offseason on physical stuff (balance, speed, ankle strength and flexibility IIRC) instead on more of the mental and technique stuff.

 

Then I watched clips of him in camp and noticed he's still getting too upright too fast out of his stance, and and in games so far I also noticed that he's not using his hands well enough and he doesn't seem to have many counters lined up when his first move fails, so he ends up getting stonewalled way too much.

 

I think he really needs to focus like a laser beam on those technique and mental aspects instead of relying on the physical aspect. He's already a freak physically, but that's not enough in the NFL because most players are insanely gifted athletes, especially top LTs.

[Warhead36]

Sweat is a talent but I agree I don't think he'll ever live up to any big salary he gets. If a team offers us a 1st rounder for him next offseason(when he's eligible for extension)I might just take it. I'd rather keep Payne and be great up front against the run and kinda just go with a JAG at the other DE spot. I mean you don't have to be great when you got three other studs on your line.

 

[Burgundy Yoda]

22 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Montez has elite length.  That helps him hold up in contain.  But that's the only the he has over Chase IMO.  I think Chase is already a better player than Montez and he's three years younger.  Chase sees the field way better and has much better range.  And he's much more of a leader.

 

My concern with Montez is that we'll eventually get stuck paying for two Chase Youngs but only have one.  Montez is closer to his ceiling then I think we want to acknowledge.  I've been making the Danielle Hunter comparison with him since his draft year, but I just don't think he's going to reach that level.  Hunter is only a year older than him, and even at LSU, I felt like he saw the game better and already knew how to play through his blocks in a way that Montez doesn't.

 

I've had faith in Montez but I'm getting antsy and starting to lean towards "sell high" on him.

 

Payne isn't going to cost what Sweat does, and signing Allen doesn't cope with what we would lose if Payne walked.  He performs a role that Allen could not IMO.  And I would not let a one tech with his level of range, durability, and energy walk.  Those players are too tough to find, most guys are tubs of goo who can't give you more than 25 good reps a game and they'll almost never make a play outside of their area.  To me, Payne is the unsung backbone of the D, plus he's a big game dude who has a knack for going beast mode in the most important games.

I have a hunch that it won't even matter, we aren't going to have a top dollar QB to pay for on this roster next season. We will be able to pay all of them + McLaurin. Scherff is obviously gone, I actually think the guy could retire early. He just gives me that vibe that he'll retire and go fishing somewhere and we'll never hear from him again. 

 

I think Chase is the better play maker, and said this last year too. His pass rushing though leaves a lot to be desired at this level, a lot of the time I see him using his leverage to push himself away from the QB. It's really easy to route Chase far outside and behind the QB, it's like clock-work and has been that way every game of his career. He got an inside pressure against the Giants last game, but those are rare. He needs a legitimate bull-rush, if he had one he would be a much better player. 

 

I'm only good on selling high on Sweat if he gets 13+ sacks. If he doesn't at least net a 1st rounder, it's not worth selling him. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[Warhead36]

Perhaps Sweat can be packaged with 1sts to get a QB. Not sure who though, but something to consider for this FO.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[NewCliche21]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Damn, Cosmi put ALL his XP into run blocking and zero into pass blocking.
 

Also seems like we've got some good specialists, I just wish we could put it all together. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[Commander -JB-]

On 9/19/2021 at 12:34 PM, Koolblue13 said:

Karma from stealing our cap money years ago. F Mara.

People need to let that go.  We deserved to get screwed out of that $ because our idiot owner Snyder tried to bend the rules.  Even with that cap space available they still woulda ****ed that up anyway.  Move on.