The Official Roster Thread or similar ;)

[HTTRDynasty]

44 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

My take is that many have flashes.  Some of us got excited about Rob Jackson's flashes back during that time.  Chris Baker had some nice flashes, etc.   In retrospect, it sounds silly to talk about those players as if some where ever that high on their pass rushing potential.   But I recall it well. Plenty were jazzed about both guys.  And not just them.  Plenty of flashes for plenty of position players -- consistency is the key. 

 

 

I acknowledge the point, but the key difference between Payne and those guys is Payne's athleticism and pedigree.  Payne is far more athletic than Chris Baker ever was, went to the best college program in the nation, and was a 1st round pick.  I agree that consistency is key, but given Payne's athleticism, youth, and pedigree, I am willing to bet he reaches a consistent level of play on par with Allen sooner rather than later.

 

I know you've referenced PFF grades a few times for Allen, but you should also mention the fact that Allen earned a 60.5 PFF grade in 2019 (Payne earned a 67.5 grade), and they were pretty much on par with each other in 2018.  

 

I personally think most here are way too quick to view Allen's 2020 year as his base level of play.  He had the best year of his career last year in what was a prelude to a contract year for him.  I'm not willing to bet that that's the level of player he'll be going forward, and at 26.5 years old, I'd be less willing to bet on Allen consistently playing at the same level he did in 2020 (vs. prior years) than I would be willing to bet on Payne's upside.

 

54 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I get jazzed about flashes too so not picking on anyone's opinion.  The reason why I double down on PFF's pedestrian rating for Payne as a pass rusher is I studied him among other tackles on this team for days/hours.  And it somewhat cemented my take on some of these guys.  I am obviously no expert, clearly I am an amateur.  But heck my opinion is all I got so I'll ride it for now.   I didn't leave watching coach tape for every game that season with a negative feeling about Payne.  I like him a lot as for stuffing the run.  But he played plenty that season at 3 technique on the left side primarily -- and to me he was pedestrian as a pass rusher. 

 

 

IMO, he has the athleticism, pedigree, youth, and flashes to explode as a consistent pass rusher at some point in the near future.  He still needs further technical refinement, but I'm much more willing to bet on that than I am a technical guy with less athleticism being anything more than he currently is.

 

56 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

When I was at the WFT game against Tampa years back, I saw this dude just destroy our interior again and again.  It took me awhile to register who that was.  And then i noticed it was Vita Vea.  The way he played in that game and some others IMO is what i think some project for Payne but personally I didn't think Payne was better than Vea in that draft and I said so then.  And I haven't seen anything that has changed my mind.    But again Payne is plenty good in his own right.  And I know especially among the local media, Sheehan in particular, they see Payne as a ticking time bomb and one season he will just explode as a pass rusher.  I can see it but I think it would be a one off drill.  Like Jarren Reed out of nowhere had a big sacks season but overall that season reminded an anamoly for his career thus far. 

 

Yeah, I recall during that draft that @mistertim and I were perhaps the biggest proponents of drafting Vea over Payne in the draft thread.  I remember you being big on drafting Minkah/Derwin over anyone else at that spot, which I was as well.  I think @stevemcqueen1 was a big Payne guy, and we had some back and forth.  I'd have been happier with Vea, but his durability does give me pause going forward.

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am actually though high on Payne.  He can play 1 gap or 2 gap well.  He can stop the run.  He has moments as a pass rusher but I am not with the people here who think he's going to break out on that front.  But I hope am wrong.  The other thing I like about him is durability.  The dude is never hurt.  I do think Jonathan Allen is the better player and has likely higher intangibles.

 

As for any player ultimately exceeding expectations, I rely some on intangibles.  And clearly some of that is subjective and guess work.   It looks like in this draft their college scouts went to town on getting players with special intangibles.

 

I just never get that vibe from hearing from people that cover this team that Payne is some fanatic obsessed with mastering his craft.  I dug around once and found a couple of interviews from Payne that gave a good vibe on that front so I am not negative on him as to that front.  But when I hear about dudes that are obsessive maniacs who are determined to be great -- Payne usually isn't part of that conversartion.  Part of the reason why I (like you) are so convinced that Chase Young is great and will have a big time career is he has that Rocky like determination to be great.    It's hard for me to get a feel for Payne on that front -- I get a better vibe from Jonathan Allen as to that narrative.

 

 

Yeah, it's tough to determine Payne's love for the game.  He's clearly a quiet dude who likes to stick to the shadows.  I would bet though that coming from Alabama, the dude is clearly no stranger to hard work.

[Conn]

21 hours ago, Rex Tomb said:

I'm fully vaccinated and support getting it, but I understand people's hesitancy around getting it. I would bet if it happens, and guys lose a paycheck, there will be a lawsuit filed by the NFLPA faster than you can say vaccine.  And I would think the NFL would lose the case given that it's an emergency vaccine and not subject to the same scrutiny as other vaccines are when they are developed, so it cannot be forced or required.

But they aren’t saying the vaccine is required. That part is wink-wink because what they’re saying is that any game that’s fully cancelled due to an outbreak won’t see its players being paid. There’s a difference. 
 

Meanwhile the Vikings just fired their OL coach/running game coordinator because he refused the vaccine. That’s legal, btw. You can fire someone for almost any reason that isn’t discriminatory, and that isn’t. 
 

 

Meanwhile…Is there even a whisper that we’re close with Allen? I’ll be pleasantly surprised if we get it done before training camp, but there’s no evidence that this FO will offer near top of the league guaranteed money in contracts yet so I’m not expecting it. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by ConnSKINS26

[mistertim]

I wouldn't be all that surprised if Allen and his agent are looking to wait until they see what the size of the 2022 cap increase is and then see how much they can squeeze out of that. IMO that's what Scherff and his agent are doing as well. It's reportedly one of the big reasons so many FAs this year were looking for 1 year contracts.

[Master Blaster]

6 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Well that last line reg. our D summed up our playoff game perfectly. We went up against a great OL and got stonewalled, who also happened to have the GOAT at QB behind them.

Still the toughest game TB had in all of the playoffs. 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

2 minutes ago, Master Blaster said:

Still the toughest game TB had in all of the playoffs. 

Can we stop with this narrative? Tampa picked up a workmanlike win against an inferior team. The transitive property isn’t very accurate. The Bucs could’ve beaten us by three TDs if they needed to.

[wit33]

2 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Yeah, it's tough to determine Payne's love for the game.  He's clearly a quiet dude who likes to stick to the shadows.  I would bet though that coming from Alabama, the dude is clearly no stranger to hard work.

Tackling RBs at or near the sidelines or chasing guys 10-15 yards down the field are all I need to see. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by wit33

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I acknowledge the point, but the key difference between Payne and those guys is Payne's athleticism and pedigree.  Payne is far more athletic than Chris Baker ever was, went to the best college program in the nation, and was a 1st round pick.  

 

As for the Alabama part, tough for me to tell what that means. He played a lot of nose.  He peaked at 1.5 sacks.  He didn't rush much from what I recall but its been a long time so I might be forgetting. 

 

His best game was on TV and everyone saw it against Georgia.  But we can argue the meaning of it either way.   On one front its so memorable since it was a big game than why not deduce that it means that bigger things are to come?   Or it could be heck -- we might be over sampling it because it was a big game that we all watched and its stuck in our head.  Cam Sims was the best receiver in the playoffs against Tampa.  As we know, he's a tall receiver who runs well for his height.  A really good athlete.   But was that just a really good day for him and most players have a game or two like that in the mix of a season?  Or does it mean big things to come?  No way to know until things unfold.   

 

But like @mistertim said at some point you got to see it.  If Cam Sims is just OK for the next 3 seasons we won't care that much about that Tampa game anymore.  That's somewhat how I feel about Payne as to him as a pass rusher.  I don't rule him out either on that front.  But I am not betting on potential anymore.  3 seasons IMO is enough to start forming an opinion.  I am not betting on a breakout season until he actually breaks out.

 

But again this is a dangerous conversation for me to have because I don't want to come off like I am trashing him.  I am more positive on Payne than the PFF numbers indicate.  I think he's an excellent run stopper.   Love his durability.  And I think his pass rushing is OK.  I don't need my nose to be a great pass rusher.  I am fine with Payne just the way he is.  I just don't for now believe the hype that we got a great pass rusher in him, too.  That's it. 

 

3 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I know you've referenced PFF grades a few times for Allen, but you should also mention the fact that Allen earned a 60.5 PFF grade in 2019 (Payne earned a 67.5 grade), and they were pretty much on par with each other in 2018.  

 

 

I separated their grades as for pass rush and run stopping.   I think I was more than fair to Payne including showing exclusively his toppish run stopping grade, showing he was top 25 and showed that chart. And I said I think he's a better pass rusher IMO than the PFF grade.

 

Payne as a pass rusher averaged a 57 in his career.  Pedestrian. Allen at 70.2 as a pass rusher which is good but not per se great but he emerged last season with one of the top grades.  As a run stopper, Payne is at 71.5 which is good not great -- I think Payne is better than that grade.  Allen at 64.  IMO he's better than that grade, too. 

 

I know PFF doesn't see the two players as equals considering they ranked the top tackles in the league on their terms.  Allen was rated #12.  Payne #23.  ESPN did a ranking too asking personnel guys to tank the top tackles.  Allen was #12.  Payne didn't make their list.  They went up to 19.

 

3 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Yeah, it's tough to determine Payne's love for the game.  He's clearly a quiet dude who likes to stick to the shadows.  I would bet though that coming from Alabama, the dude is clearly no stranger to hard work.

 

I am not questioning his love of the game, my question is whether he is one of those dudes with special determination?  He's not a dude that I read about his intangibles much.  For some other players I do, including some of the quiet guys.  My point is for me to bet on a dude to show something he hasn't shown yet, I am betting on the dudes who are described with that Rocky like determination-work ethic.  Let me emphasize the point hasn't shown yet. 

 

So if I take a dude like L. Thomas, or Kerrigan (in his heyday) or Terry or Chase or Holcomb and there are a series of others who are really hyped on this front -- I'd be more willing to go on that ride and bet on seeing things I haven't seen enough, yet.  Payne doesn't fit that cateogry for me purely from the perspective in all of my listening and reading about this team.  That doesn't mean he isn't that kind of dude.  But if he is its going mostly below the radar.  And I have looked for it.  I found a couple of good articles about him with some good quotes from him.   But let me emphaize, I am not saying he isn't that guy either.   There is just nothing about him that stood out to me in my readings and listening to what's been said about him on that front.

 

3 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Yeah, I recall during that draft that @mistertim and I were perhaps the biggest proponents of drafting Vea over Payne in the draft thread.  I remember you being big on drafting Minkah/Derwin over anyone else at that spot, which I was as well.  I think @stevemcqueen1 was a big Payne guy, and we had some back and forth.  I'd have been happier with Vea, but his durability does give me pause going forward.

 

 

I'll let @mistertim correct me if I am wrong.  But if I recall he started pro Vea over Payne but then turned for Payne over Vea.  But he didn't love the idea of drafting either guy?  I recall @mistertim and I were among the biggest whiners about them taking Payne. . I thought they were nuts not to take Derwin James.  I believe @mistertimfelt the same way?

 

It took @volsmetto calm me down.  He agreed with me that Derwin would have been the better pick though.  Yeah I was nuts for M. Fitzpatrick and Derwin.  I became more associated with Derwin over time because he's the dude I whined about since i can't complain about Minkah since he was already gone before our pick.

 

My take on Payne hasn't really changed too much from then.  I saw him as a good player.  Not great. Really good run stopper.   I didn't think much of him as a pass rusher.  I like him now more than I did then because I value durability.  He's been very durable.  That means something to me.  And Derwin not so much. 

 

I did like Vea over Payne, I said it a bunch of times on that thread especially as the draft got closer.  But I was definitely for Minkah and Derwin over Vea.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Rex Tomb]

2 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

But they aren’t saying the vaccine is required. That part is wink-wink because what they’re saying is that any game that’s fully cancelled due to an outbreak won’t see its players being paid. There’s a difference. 
 

Meanwhile the Vikings just fired their OL coach/running game coordinator because he refused the vaccine. That’s legal, btw. You can fire someone for almost any reason that isn’t discriminatory, and that isn’t. 
 

 

Meanwhile…Is there even a whisper that we’re close with Allen? I’ll be pleasantly surprised if we get it done before training camp, but there’s no evidence that this FO will offer near top of the league guaranteed money in contracts yet so I’m not expecting it. 

Oh, no I totally get that.  It's a really cheeky way to basically require it.  

[bowhunter]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I did like Vea over Payne, I said it a bunch of times on that thread especially as the draft got closer.  But I was definitely for Minkah and Derwin over Vea.

 

 

I don't post nearly as often and when I do, apparently it's not memorable lol. But I was persistently and most  definitely screaming for Vea over Payne in that draft thread

[Dark Acre]

Seems to me you have 3 main types of guys: 1) dedicate themselves to football (that's who they are); 2) love football and work hard but not dedicated; and 3) dedicated to, and love, the football paycheck.  I see Payne as #2.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

Vea has missed 14 games over 3 seasons. 73 Tackles 7.5 sacks 3 Passes defended.

Derwin James has missed 27 games over 3 seasons.

 

Payne has missed 1.....Give me Payne all day... He's given better returns for a first round pick over his first 3 seasons.  

166 Tackes 10 Sacks 4 forced fumbles 2 fumble recoveries 1 int's 9 passes defended

 

And yes I understand how talented both guys up top are, the amazing first year from Derwin and the uber affect Vea gave TB down the stretch.

But in totality, this isn't even an argument to me, and I'm super happy with the player we picked.

[Koolblue13]

3 hours ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

Vea has missed 14 games over 3 seasons. 73 Tackles 7.5 sacks 3 Passes defended.

Derwin James has missed 27 games over 3 seasons.

 

Payne has missed 1.....Give me Payne all day... He's given better returns for a first round pick over his first 3 seasons.  

166 Tackes 10 Sacks 4 forced fumbles 2 fumble recoveries 1 int's 9 passes defended

 

And yes I understand how talented both guys up top are, the amazing first year from Derwin and the uber affect Vea gave TB down the stretch.

But in totality, this isn't even an argument to me, and I'm super happy with the player we picked.

Those are pretty impressive numbers for a line holding nose.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

18 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'm not saying you weren't wrong.  But I don't think agents can play the "You need my guy more than he needs you" card anymore.  That flew with Dan/Bruce.  But I don't think it currently flies.  Ron just says, "You are asking for something we're not prepared to give."  And then you're gone. 

 

 

Yep...Rivera has already said on record that their contract moves are pretty much dictated by a pay structure they have set up, and whatever contracts they offer will fall in line with that. So that plus really good drafting means the "You are asking for something we're not prepared to give" is not a negotiating tactic...it's a statement of fact.

[Silvernon]

5 hours ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

Vea has missed 14 games over 3 seasons. 73 Tackles 7.5 sacks 3 Passes defended.

Derwin James has missed 27 games over 3 seasons.

 

Payne has missed 1.....Give me Payne all day... He's given better returns for a first round pick over his first 3 seasons.  

166 Tackes 10 Sacks 4 forced fumbles 2 fumble recoveries 1 int's 9 passes defended

 

And yes I understand how talented both guys up top are, the amazing first year from Derwin and the uber affect Vea gave TB down the stretch.

But in totality, this isn't even an argument to me, and I'm super happy with the player we picked.

You forgot to talk about snaps. 

 

Vea played great, but he's not playing all downs. 

[Koolblue13]

Well Rodger looks like he's definitely coming free next year, along with Adams.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

12 hours ago, bowhunter said:

I don't post nearly as often and when I do, apparently it's not memorable lol. But I was persistently and most  definitely screaming for Vea over Payne in that draft thread

 

lol, yeah I apologize its tough for me to recall everyone.  😀  The only reason why I recall @mistertim on that debate (if I am remembering right, its been a long time) was I recall our takes on Payne were just about identical.   That's rare to happen on that thread because we all have different takes and it makes that thread entertaining.  I tend to forget takes unless someone just harps a lot on a player, then I often recall it especially if its somewhat recent. 

 

I wasn't really that into taking Vea in that draft but was Ok with the idea.  I liked him over Payne and I recall saying it multiple times.  IMO Vea is the monster player that some believe Payne will be one day.    I was a nut for Minkah Fitzpatrick and Derwin James.  And Derrius Guice too and boy was I wrong about him.   😧

 

And I do like Payne.   I think he's the better nose tackles in the league.   I just question the idea that if you let him play more 1-gap chase the QB, that he's on par with Jonathan Allen or Ionnaidis as a pass rusher.  I agree that he's a special athlete.  I just don't see a special pass rusher.  At least not yet.  And three seasons isn't exactly a nothing sample size.  And one off games whether in college or the pros doesn't convince me.  What pro doesn't have some one off games?   But like I said i am perfectly fine with Payne clogging the middle and stopping the run.  He doesn't have to be a really good pass rusher for me to warm up to him.   

 

https://www.bucsnation.com/2021/7/7/22567542/vita-vea-gets-top-10-love-nfl-poll-while-shaquil-barrett-honorable-mention-tampa-bay-buccaneers

It wasn’t how much Vea played which got him on the list though, it was his impact when he did, as Fowler quoted another source involved in the polling as saying,

“Once he got back in the playoffs, they were different. You couldn’t do anything against them...Vita can rush [the] passer, has force — more a Deebo [the “Friday” character], not a craftsman. If he wants to get in, he gets in.”

None of this is news to those who watch Tampa Bay closely of course, but it’s good to know others around the league are aware of it as well.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Well Rodger looks like he's definitely coming free next year, along with Adams.

 

 

Yeah be great if Rodgers is released next off season. 😀  Drives me nut that the Giants and Eagles might also be QB shopping with more draft capital than us.  I think if any of the NFC East teams land (especially us or NY) Rodgers they are a serious SB threat.  Sheehan said he talked to an odds maker he knew and ran by Rodgers going to WFT.  He said the guy told him it likely would make the WFT the 2nd most favorite to make the SB after Tampa.

[Koolblue13]

I was a big Payne and Fitz guy that draft. Wanted to move up for Fitzpatrick really badly.

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I was a big Payne and Fitz guy that draft. Wanted to move up for Fitzpatrick really badly.

 

Alabama.  😀. Yeah I recall you were with me on Fitz.

 

Yeah I was hyped on M. Fitzpatrick.   Speaking of Alabama.  Saban gushed over him, talked about him being one of the smartest players he's ever had, etc.  Saban is always nice publicly at least about all his Alabama players coming into the draft.  But if you go through his comments, its not hard to tell which players he thinks are more special among his guys hitting the NFL. 

 

I probably hyped Fitzpatrick more than Derwin James but I couldn't complain about anyone but Derwin James since that's the dude they skipped over.  Lol, I woke up my kid, sleeping in a nearby room, screaming at the TV when they took Payne.  It's not that I didn't like Payne.  I thought he was a good nose-run stopper and he fit a need for sure.  But I didn't think he was a special player.  Derwin I saw as special.  M. Fitzpatrick, too.

 

It came out later via Doug that there wasn't a consensus in the draft room about picking Payne.  It's not hard to piece together that it was Doug and Bruce wanting Payne.  Jay and Kyle Smith wanting a different player.  More say that player was T. Edmonds some think it was D James.   

 

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Number 44]

13 hours ago, bowhunter said:

I don't post nearly as often and when I do, apparently it's not memorable lol.

 

[wit33]

15 hours ago, GothSkinsFan said:

Seems to me you have 3 main types of guys: 1) dedicate themselves to football (that's who they are); 2) love football and work hard but not dedicated; and 3) dedicated to, and love, the football paycheck.  I see Payne as #2.

What until an IG post comes out of him running around cones, sweating profusely, and grunting… then we can label him #1?

 

Not all directed at you lol 

 

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

lol, yeah I apologize its tough for me to recall everyone.  😀  The only reason why I recall @mistertim on that debate (if I am remembering right, its been a long time) was I recall our takes on Payne were just about identical.   That's rare to happen on that thread because we all have different takes and it makes that thread entertaining.  I tend to forget takes unless someone just harps a lot on a player, then I often recall it especially if its somewhat recent. 

 

I wasn't really that into taking Vea in that draft but was Ok with the idea.  I liked him over Payne and I recall saying it multiple times.  IMO Vea is the monster player that some believe Payne will be one day.    I was a nut for Minkah Fitzpatrick and Derwin James.  And Derrius Guice too and boy was I wrong about him.   😧

 

And I do like Payne.   I think he's the better nose tackles in the league.   I just question the idea that if you let him play more 1-gap chase the QB, that he's on par with Jonathan Allen or Ionnaidis as a pass rusher.  I agree that he's a special athlete.  I just don't see a special pass rusher.  At least not yet.  And three seasons isn't exactly a nothing sample size.  And one off games whether in college or the pros doesn't convince me.  What pro doesn't have some one off games?   But like I said i am perfectly fine with Payne clogging the middle and stopping the run.  He doesn't have to be a really good pass rusher for me to warm up to him.   

 

https://www.bucsnation.com/2021/7/7/22567542/vita-vea-gets-top-10-love-nfl-poll-while-shaquil-barrett-honorable-mention-tampa-bay-buccaneers

It wasn’t how much Vea played which got him on the list though, it was his impact when he did, as Fowler quoted another source involved in the polling as saying,

“Once he got back in the playoffs, they were different. You couldn’t do anything against them...Vita can rush [the] passer, has force — more a Deebo [the “Friday” character], not a craftsman. If he wants to get in, he gets in.”

None of this is news to those who watch Tampa Bay closely of course, but it’s good to know others around the league are aware of it as well.

 

 

From afar… He seems to meet similar criteria to why you like Allen or Payne. He’s a DT that’s never produced sacks at a high rate ever college or pro. Their run defense was just fine without him or White against Washington. 
 

Don’t watch TB consistently to have a strong opinion on Vea, but “stat hunting” (I give little value to this, but has a role) there seems to be some room to argue. 

[Skinsinparadise]

55 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

From afar… He seems to meet similar criteria to why you like Allen or Payne. He’s a DT that’s never produced sacks at a high rate ever college or pro. Their run defense was just fine without him or White against Washington. 
 

Don’t watch TB consistently to have a strong opinion on Vea, but “stat hunting” (I give little value to this, but has a role) there seems to be some room to argue. 

 

If I have a strong opinion is usually formed by watching the player.  Granted sometimes its a small sample.  I watched some of Vea's college games.  Some but not a ton of him at Tampa.  He's a guy I spent some energy on before that draft considering he was one of the rumored players that might come here at the time.   Doesn't make my opinion anything special but just saying it would take something concrete to dislodge my opinion. 

 

When there are things that back up my opinion, I take notice. Vea rated a 90 by PFF which is an elite score.  We didn't have a single player score a 90 last year, Chase was the closest. Vea is top 10, often top 5 in most rankings done including the one done by personnel guys for ESPN recently.   Yeah defensive tackles ability to pressure and disrupt isn't per se measured in sacks.  I am selling Jonathan Allen as a pass rusher even though he had just 2 sacks.    Ditto Vea.  Sorry I don't think Payne is in their class as a pass rusher.  If you do that's cool.  😀

 

A banged up, turf toe plagued Antonio Gibson having a bad day versus that Tampa defense to me doesn't take away that Vea is a IMO a great player or Devin White.  I couldn't find it now but i recall reading an article from a Tampa player saying Vea is the most important player on their defense.   Others ironically have said D. White.

 

If we want to turn this into sunshine for Payne.  Then how about this.  Vea has gotten better over time.  So he'd back the idea that you can keep improving at that spot.  Also while I don't agree with those who think Payne is a special pass rusher or will be in just a matter of time.  I do put a lot of stock in his durability.  It's remarkable for a tackle.  Vea hasn't been durable in comparison.  and again i think Payne is fine for who he is as a player.  A really good 2 gap run stuffer. 

 

 

https://www.bucsnation.com/2021/2/3/22264944/you-have-to-know-where-he-is-every-play-buccaneers-super-bowl-lv-patrick-mahomes-vita-vea

I asked Mahomes what kind of impact Vea will make for the Bucs defense and what the Chiefs are looking to do to help neutralize his impact in Super Bowl LV;

“He’s a guy that you gotta know where he’s at on every single play. He’s obviously super disruptive in the run game but he’s just as good as a pass rusher. You don’t see guys like that playing that position that can rush the passer that much.

He’s a special talent. I have to know where he is every single play in order to not let him disrupt the entire game.”

 

 

[wit33]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If I have a strong opinion is usually formed by watching the player.  Granted sometimes its a small sample.  I watched some of Vea's college games.  Some but not a ton of him at Tampa.  He's a guy I spent some energy on before that draft considering he was one of the rumored players that might come here at the time.   Doesn't make my opinion anything special but just saying it would take something concrete to dislodge my opinion. 

 

When there are things that back up my opinion, I take notice. Vea rated a 90 by PFF which is an elite score.  We didn't have a single player score a 90 last year, Chase was the closest. Vea is top 10, often top 5 in most rankings done including the one done by personnel guys for ESPN recently.   Yeah defensive tackles ability to pressure and disrupt isn't per se measured in sacks.  I am selling Jonathan Allen as a pass rusher even though he had just 2 sacks.    Ditto Vea.  Sorry I don't think Payne is in their class as a pass rusher.  If you do that's cool.  😀

 

A banged up, turf toe plagued Antonio Gibson having a bad day versus that Tampa defense to me doesn't take away that Vea is a IMO a great player or Devin White.  I couldn't find it now but i recall reading an article from a Tampa player saying Vea is the most important player on their defense.   Others ironically have said D. White.

 

If we want to turn this into sunshine for Payne.  Then how about this.  Vea has gotten better over time.  So he'd back the idea that you can keep improving at that spot.  Also while I don't agree with those who think Payne is a special pass rusher or will be in just a matter of time.  I do put a lot of stock in his durability.  It's remarkable for a tackle.  Vea hasn't been durable in comparison.  and again i think Payne is fine for who he is as a player.  A really good 2 gap run stuffer. 

 

 

https://www.bucsnation.com/2021/2/3/22264944/you-have-to-know-where-he-is-every-play-buccaneers-super-bowl-lv-patrick-mahomes-vita-vea

I asked Mahomes what kind of impact Vea will make for the Bucs defense and what the Chiefs are looking to do to help neutralize his impact in Super Bowl LV;

“He’s a guy that you gotta know where he’s at on every single play. He’s obviously super disruptive in the run game but he’s just as good as a pass rusher. You don’t see guys like that playing that position that can rush the passer that much.

He’s a special talent. I have to know where he is every single play in order to not let him disrupt the entire game.”

 

 

In your time dedicated to watching Vea why do you think he’s never eclipsed 3 sacks in college or NFL? 
 

All the superlatives thrown the Bucs way will hopefully soon come to Washington if they become an elite and contending team. The player comments don’t move the needle much, just “player talk” ahead of a matchup. Had nothing to do with a banged up Gibson, no back in the NFL was going to have a good day with the scheme and line Washington had that day, IMO. Bucs were dominant at the line of scrimmage. 
 

Not sure about Payne’s pass rushing prowess, but watching him makes me believe his much more than a run stuffing DT. He has wrecked some plays and drives (not games yet) with his playmaking. Came out at 20, younger dude, this is the year i think he breaks out statistically. 

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, wit33 said:

In your time dedicated to watching Vea why do you think he’s never eclipsed 3 sacks in college or NFL? 

 

He plays mostly nose, that's why.  Also injuries.    As for DT's as some have mentioned in defense in Payne and Allen, its not all about sacks but being disruptive.   Rivera has talked about that, too.   The argument for Vea as being disruptive when he does rush (J. Allen for that matter too) is reflected in his PFF scores, rankings by personnel people, teammates, opponent's players, etc.  But, I am not here pimping Vea.  I can care less about him.   So if you feel different about him.  Cool.  

 

10 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Not sure about Payne’s pass rushing prowess, but watching him makes me believe his much more than a run stuffing DT. He has wrecked some plays and drives (not games yet) with his playmaking. Came out at 20, younger dude, this is the year i think he breaks out statistically. 

 

No one's arguing otherwise, including me.  My point was on that front I somehwat agree with his pedestrian PFF scores as a pass rusher albeit I think he's slightly better than that.  For a nose, he's decent IMO but nothing special as a pass rusher.

 

The argument here is I am saying so to speak Payne has Batman like powers.  And some disgaree saying he's not just Batman but is Superman or soon to show Superman powers, too.   OK, I doubt that,  Didn't say it was impossible though.  And Batman is plenty good enough for me. 

[Xameil]

On 7/23/2021 at 1:38 PM, dyst said:

We are a bad organization and a bad team. Rarely do we draft and cultivate talent that leads to sustained success. Agents know this, so they use it to their advantage. You won’t pull this with the Steelers, because they will ship you out and find a replacement for you.

I think you are thinking of 2 or 3 years ago...I have a feeling that's not the way it is now. Don't live in the past.