The Official Roster Thread or similar ;)

[Est.1974]

Pay Jon Allen. Get it sorted. 

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Allen is going to get a huge deal, regardless if it's with us or not. I really want to keep all of those guys together for a few more years.

 

I think this team has a 3 or 4 year window opening up that will allow us to save on QB, CB and LBer due to the draft. I also think the cap ceiling is going to blow up.

 

Allen is a leader for the culture change and Ron can't keep losing core players.

 

Yeah I am with you.  If I had to pick one of the tackles who is a must keep it would be Allen.  I'd love to keep all three.  

 

I agree with the point made here that Payne will likely not command the same amount of money as Allen.  Typically run stopping specialists at DT don't break the bank.   And i am not ruling out that Payne doesn't have a breakthrough season as a rusher but if he doesn't -- then maybe the contract that Tomlinson got is a template for him? 

 

That would mean Payne 10-12 million range.  Allen maybe 15-16 million range.

 

The one wildcard is you never know how aggressive these players agents are.  some agents tact seems to be to ask for the moon and if the team refuses they just march towards FA. 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

10 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Allen is going to get a huge deal, regardless if it's with us or not. I really want to keep all of those guys together for a few more years.

 

I think this team has a 3 or 4 year window opening up that will allow us to save on QB, CB and LBer due to the draft. I also think the cap ceiling is going to blow up.

 

Allen is a leader for the culture change and Ron can't keep losing core players.

 

I absolutely would love to keep Allen but I'm not convinced that another team would offer him a deal that would reset the market. He's definitely a highly graded pass rusher but the production just isn't there. I think teams might look and say "Sure, he has a very high PFF grade, but why can't he seem to finish his rushes and get to the QB?"

 

IMO teams are likely to balk at paying a guy Donald/Cox/Buckner/Jones money (or even more than them) for a guy with limited production. Obviously pressures are super important, but teams pay the huge bucks for sacks and without those it's going to be a tough sell.

 

But who knows.

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah I am with you.  If I had to pick one of the tackles who is a must keep it would be Allen.  I'd love to keep all three.  

 

I agree with the point made here that Payne will likely not command the same amount of money as Allen.  Typically run stopping specialists at DT don't break the bank.   And i am not ruling out that Payne doesn't have a breakthrough season as a rusher but if he doesn't -- them maybe the contract that Tomlinson is a template for him? 

 

That would mean Payne 10-12 million range.  Allen maybe 15-16 million range.

 

The one wildcard is you never know how aggressive these players agents are.  some agents tact seems to be to ask for the moon and if the team refuses they just march towards FA. 

 

 

I definitely get that money is important, but at some point you have to wonder if situation isn't also important for legacy for these guys. 

 

Is Allen going to look great not playing between Payne and Young? I doubt it. I think Allen is going to be close to $20mil, nobody is going to like it, but it's worth it.

 

With Iaonnidias coming back, the rotation should be pretty manageable for the 4 interior guys we have and they should put up some great numbers.

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I absolutely would love to keep Allen but I'm not convinced that another team would offer him a deal that would reset the market. He's definitely a highly graded pass rusher but the production just isn't there. I think teams might look and say "Sure, he has a very high PFF grade, but why can't he seem to finish his rushes and get to the QB?"

 

IMO teams are likely to balk at paying a guy Donald/Cox/Buckner/Jones money (or even more than them) for a guy with limited production. Obviously pressures are super important, but teams pay the huge bucks for sacks and without those it's going to be a tough sell.

 

But who knows.

Yeah, I think we really lucked out that he only hand a couple sacks last year.

 

No team has ever had 4 players with 10+ sacks. Random cool stat.

[dyst]

We are a bad organization and a bad team. Rarely do we draft and cultivate talent that leads to sustained success. Agents know this, so they use it to their advantage. You won’t pull this with the Steelers, because they will ship you out and find a replacement for you.

[NickyJ]

Every offseason, ES goes through a period of dreaming who they want to sign, and who we shouldn't sign because they'll be overrated and overpriced. Every offseason, ES gets its collective heart broken. We undervalue our players as much as other teams undervalue their own. Allen is going to get a big contract because even if Washington thinks he's hit the ceiling, another team will think they can get more out of him. It always has been and always will be the case. Same for Scherff. Scherff is a guard, but there will always be *that* team that pays out the nose for the best on the market.

Edited July 23, 2021 by NickyJ

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I definitely get that money is important, but at some point you have to wonder if situation isn't also important for legacy for these guys. 

 

Is Allen going to look great not playing between Payne and Young? I doubt it. I think Allen is going to be close to $20mil, nobody is going to like it, but it's worth it.

 

 

$20 million a year seems steeper than what the local media is projecting. But you could be right.  That would be Leonard Williams kind of contract.  Arguably Leonard is the better player but I don't think there is a mile as far as differences between the two.  

[Est.1974]

Jon Allen will re-sign here. Different circumstances to Scherff. A dominant D-Line is crucial to our short/medium term success. Especially if Fitz becomes the guy at QB for say  3 seasons.

[Koolblue13]

Resigning Allen on the eve of training camp would really be a huge boost for the team.

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

Yeah, I think we really lucked out that he only hand a couple sacks last year.

 

 

I agree.  The thing is about Allen is he had double digit sacks twice at Alabama.  He already had a season here with 8.  When it comes to selling Payne as a pass rusher, its projecting that he can put up stats that he never has in his career.  When it comes to Allen, the dude has done it.   i wouldn't be shocked if he had a double digit sack season.

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 minutes ago, dyst said:

We are a bad organization and a bad team. Rarely do we draft and cultivate talent that leads to sustained success. Agents know this, so they use it to their advantage. You won’t pull this with the Steelers, because they will ship you out and find a replacement for you.

I mean, except for the fact we have done a whole bunch better recently.  We have actually drafted pretty well the last 5-6 years.  Not SUPER DUPER great, but pretty well.  And we've developed those guys.  

 

Allen, Payne, Ioannidis, Terry McLaurin, Scherff, Chase Rouiller, Montez Sweat, Young, Gibson immediately come to mind, and you also had some contributors from guys like Curl and Reeves. 

 

Also, I think that all the agents know with Bruce out and Ron in, there's just a different approach to everything.  I get that Dan is still around.  But Ron has already shipped out Dan's hand-chosen QB/pet.  I think all the agents know that there's a new way of doing business.  

 

And as it relates to Scherff, his is a situation made by the NFL, not the WFT.  Because they only have one designation of the franchise tag for the OL, the team can offer him top-of-the-market Guard money, but by tagging him, he gets top-of-the-market tackle money.  Which makes sense for him.  And it makes sense for the WFT not to pay a guard tackle money.  So I completely understand why both sides are doing exactly what they are doing.  Washington's only option would have been to let him walk for nothing, or pay him top 5 tackle money.  Which they didn't want to do long term.  And Scherff would have been completely nuts to not take advantage of this ridiculousness by the NFL.  

 

And as it relates to Allen, I don't know if they will get a deal done or not.  I kindof doubt it.  And again, I think that's more of a function of the environment than the team.  They're negotiating in a situation where they don't know what the cap is going to be next year, with the new TV deals, in a current down year for the cap, and if I was a player's agent, I would want to see what the cap looks like in 2022 before signing anything.  

 

 

 

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree.  The thing is about Allen is he had double digit sacks twice at Alabama.  He already had a season here with 8.  When it comes to selling Payne as a pass rusher, its projecting that he can put up stats that he never has in his career.  When it comes to Allen, the dude has done it.   i wouldn't be shocked if he had a double digit sack season.

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities that Allen, Young, Sweat and Iaon all eclipse 10+ this season. 

[HTTRDynasty]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree.  The thing is about Allen is he had double digit sacks twice at Alabama.  He already had a season here with 8.  When it comes to selling Payne as a pass rusher, its projecting that he can put up stats that he never has in his career.  When it comes to Allen, the dude has done it.   i wouldn't be shocked if he had a double digit sack season.

 

We've seen flashes of what Payne could be as a pass-rusher though, both in the college playoffs, and in the playoff game last season.  I personally think 2.5 years from now, when Payne is the same age Allen is now, he'll be consistently playing at that level as a pass rusher, and be an even better run defender.

[Koolblue13]

Just now, HTTRDynasty said:

 

We've seen flashes of what Payne could be as a pass-rusher though, both in the college playoffs, and in the playoff game last season.  I personally think 2.5 years from now, when Payne is the same age Allen is now, he'll be consistently playing at that level as a pass rusher, and be an even better run defender.

I agree. I don't think we're close to Paynes ceiling yet.

[dyst]

@Voice_of_Reason agreed, we have definitely drafted well of late (maybe last 3 or so years but it hasn’t led to sustain success for the team, so I can definitely see agents thinking (sign my guy for a high price or he will walk) knowing the WFT needs the player more than the player needs the team.
 

Then you have teams like the Packers, Steelers, Eagles, Ravens, Patriots etc, where the the players need them more then the team needs the player. This is hopefully changing here. But again, just throwing ideas out there.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, dyst said:

@Voice_of_Reason agreed, we have definitely drafted well of late (maybe last 3 or so years but it hasn’t led to sustain success for the team, so I can definitely see agents thinking (sign my guy for a high price or he will walk) knowing the WFT needs the player more than the player needs the team.
 

Then you have teams like the Packers, Steelers, Eagles, Ravens, Patriots etc, where the the players need them more then the team needs the player. This is hopefully changing here. But again, just throwing ideas out there.

I think it's going to take some time to fully change the perception, but I also think that Ron has absolutely shown that he's not having any of that. 

 

Here are some examples:

- Trent Williams.  Clearly if Ron wanted to, he could have given Trent a big deal and an extension, and mended fences.  He wasn't here when things went bad, but instead, he told Trent no, and traded him for a 3rd round pick just to get rid of him. One of the top 3 tackles in the league.  And it was mostly about money.  Trent wanted another huge pay day, Ron wasn't having it, so off he went.  

- Quintin Dunbar.  This is one of my favorite Ron lines as he shipped him cross country to the Seahawks: "He was asking for something we weren't prepared to give."  Bam.  Goodbye.  Did he get the best value possible?  Maybe not. But he wasn't going to be held hostage by a second-tier DB who wanted big money.

- Eric Flowers.  The team liked him, but they wouldn't over-pay.  How much did they like him?  He's back.  But they didn't pay him the big money

 

There are others externally, where they have been out-bid by other teams in either trades or in Free Agency.

 

I'm not saying you weren't wrong.  But I don't think agents can play the "You need my guy more than he needs you" card anymore.  That flew with Dan/Bruce.  But I don't think it currently flies.  Ron just says, "You are asking for something we're not prepared to give."  And then you're gone.  

 

As I said, I think right now we're in unprecedented times when it comes to the cap, which is making things really difficult for negotiations all the way around.  

20 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities that Allen, Young, Sweat and Iaon all eclipse 10+ this season. 

If that happens, we're playing for the NFC Championship. 

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I think it's going to take some time to fully change the perception, but I also think that Ron has absolutely shown that he's not having any of that. 

 

Here are some examples:

- Trent Williams.  Clearly if Ron wanted to, he could have given Trent a big deal and an extension, and mended fences.  He wasn't here when things went bad, but instead, he told Trent no, and traded him for a 3rd round pick just to get rid of him. One of the top 3 tackles in the league.  And it was mostly about money.  Trent wanted another huge pay day, Ron wasn't having it, so off he went.  

- Quintin Dunbar.  This is one of my favorite Ron lines as he shipped him cross country to the Seahawks: "He was asking for something we weren't prepared to give."  Bam.  Goodbye.  Did he get the best value possible?  Maybe not. But he wasn't going to be held hostage by a second-tier DB who wanted big money.

- Eric Flowers.  The team liked him, but they wouldn't over-pay.  How much did they like him?  He's back.  But they didn't pay him the big money

 

There are others externally, where they have been out-bid by other teams in either trades or in Free Agency.

 

I'm not saying you weren't wrong.  But I don't think agents can play the "You need my guy more than he needs you" card anymore.  That flew with Dan/Bruce.  But I don't think it currently flies.  Ron just says, "You are asking for something we're not prepared to give."  And then you're gone.  

 

As I said, I think right now we're in unprecedented times when it comes to the cap, which is making things really difficult for negotiations all the way around.  

If that happens, we're playing for the NFC Championship. 

Absolutely we will. I'm assuming our offense will be scoring a lot more and that should allow us to play a lot more aggressive. Having man CBs should also buy the line another second to get home. Iaon in the rotation should help keep the guys fresh too. Our defense could really be special this season. 00' Ravens special.

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Absolutely we will. I'm assuming our offense will be scoring a lot more and that should allow us to play a lot more aggressive. Having man CBs should also buy the line another second to get home. Iaon in the rotation should help keep the guys fresh too. Our defense could really be special this season. 00' Ravens special.

I don't have your level of optimism.  I think they can be better.  THAT much better?  I dunno.  There are still a few ?s.  But if they stay healthy, I think they can be better.  

 

00' Ravens special?  I mean, I'm here for that.  But I don't see it just yet. 

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I don't have your level of optimism.  I think they can be better.  THAT much better?  I dunno.  There are still a few ?s.  But if they stay healthy, I think they can be better.  

 

00' Ravens special?  I mean, I'm here for that.  But I don't see it just yet. 

Pretty sure every team JDR has coached the defense hasn't ranked below 2nd in the second year.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

We've seen flashes of what Payne could be as a pass-rusher though, both in the college playoffs, and in the playoff game last season.  I personally think 2.5 years from now, when Payne is the same age Allen is now, he'll be consistently playing at that level as a pass rusher, and be an even better run defender.

 

I hope so but I'd be surprised albeit not shocked.   There is no right or wrong answer to this is just us all guessing.   Here's why I am sold on Payne as a run stopper but cynical about him ever becoming a stud pass rusher....

 

My take is that many have flashes.  Some of us got excited about Rob Jackson's flashes back during that time.  Chris Baker had some nice flashes, etc.   In retrospect, it sounds silly to talk about those players as if some were ever that high on their pass rushing potential.   But I recall it well. Plenty were jazzed about both guys.  And not just them.  Plenty of flashes for plenty of position players -- consistency is the key. 

 

I get jazzed about flashes too so not picking on anyone's opinion.  The reason why I double down on PFF's pedestrian rating for Payne as a pass rusher is I studied him among other tackles on this team for days/hours.  And it somewhat cemented my take on some of these guys.  I am obviously no expert, clearly I am an amateur.  But heck my opinion is all I got so I'll ride it for now.   I didn't leave watching coach tape for every game that season with a negative feeling about Payne.  I like him a lot as for stuffing the run.  But he played plenty that season at 3 technique on the left side primarily -- and to me he was pedestrian as a pass rusher. 

 

He had moments but he was mostly contained and contained without being double teamed most of the time.  When he had his moments he's hard to forget because when he blows up his block he destroys it.  But by and large he was containted pretty well.  I am not as down on Payne's pass rushing as PFF's scores.  I think he's better than that.  

 

When I was at the WFT game against Tampa years back, I saw this dude just destroy our interior again and again.  It took me awhile to register who that was.  And then i noticed it was Vita Vea.  The way he played in that game and some others IMO is what i think some project for Payne but personally I didn't think Payne was better than Vea in that draft and I said so then.  And I haven't seen anything that has changed my mind.    But again Payne is plenty good in his own right.  And I know especially among the local media, Sheehan in particular, they see Payne as a ticking time bomb and one season he will just explode as a pass rusher.  I can see it but I think it would be a one off drill.  Like Jarren Reed out of nowhere had a big sacks season but overall that season remains an anamoly for his career thus far. 

 

I am actually though high on Payne.  He can play 1 gap or 2 gap well.  He can stop the run.  He has moments as a pass rusher but I am not with the people here who think he's going to break out on that front.  But I hope am wrong.  The other thing I like about him is durability.  The dude is never hurt.  I do think Jonathan Allen is the better player and has likely higher intangibles.

 

As for any player ultimately exceeding expectations, I rely some on intangibles.  And clearly some of that is subjective and guess work.   It looks like in this draft their college scouts went to town on getting players with special intangibles.

 

I just never get that vibe from hearing from people that cover this team that Payne is some fanatic obsessed with mastering his craft.  I dug around once and found a couple of interviews from Payne that gave a good vibe on that front so I am not negative on him as to that front.  But when I hear about dudes that are obsessive maniacs who are determined to be great -- Payne usually isn't part of that conversartion.  Part of the reason why I (like you) are so convinced that Chase Young is great and will have a big time career is he has that Rocky like determination to be great.    It's hard for me to get a feel for Payne on that front -- I get a better vibe from Jonathan Allen as to that narrative.

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Pretty sure every team JDR has coached the defense hasn't ranked below 2nd in the second year.

Well, here's hoping! I'm not going to be disappointed if it does.  

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I hope so but I'd be surprised albeit not shocked. 

...

I think Kevin Sheehan might be Payne's biggest fan in the media.  I like him too.  We'll see.  

 

Out of curiosity, do you get paid by the word or pasted in tweets?  Just curious what your ES comp plan is...

 

[CrypticVillain]

15 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Pretty sure every team JDR has coached the defense hasn't ranked below 2nd in the second year.

Panthers 2002: 2nd (Just one season as DC)
Jaguars (HC) 2003: 6th and (3rd year) 2004: 11th
Broncos (DC) 2013: 19th and (3rd year) 2014: 3rd
Raiders (HC) 2016: 26th (3rd year) 2017: 23rd

 

I was excited seeing your post KB, now I'm terrified. 😂

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Well, here's hoping! I'm not going to be disappointed if it does.  

I think Kevin Sheehan might be Payne's biggest fan in the media.  I like him too.  We'll see.  

 

Out of curiosity, do you get paid by the word or pasted in tweets?  Just curious what your ES comp plan is...

 

 

Yeah Sheehan is probably Payne's biggest fan.  I'll give him he stays loyal to his guys.  Kerryon Johnson for example.  He loved him in that draft.  Even with his release from the Lions and meh career thus far, I recall him selling him recently. 😀  He did back off Haskins fast though.  He like Cooley didn't like him before the draft.  But Sheehan was sold after his rookie season saying he's bust proof.  But he backed off last season fast.  That's rare for him.   Sheehan is on the clock with Sam Darnold and Kyle Trask considering all the hype he did on both, especially Darnold this off season. 😀. 

 

He was optimistic about this team but lately has been a bit of a killjoy all of a sudden.  The other day mocking Acho for saying he saw WFT as the main threat to his team.  And today he called out Mike Silver for being a homer for touting the team, Silver touting what they accomplished last season and Sheehan responds by minimizing it.  Seems like something happened for him to all of a sudden feel cranky about the team.  

Edited July 23, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

My issue with Payne is that with him (at least when it comes to pass rushing) it's pretty much always been about "potential". 

 

In college he had very limited pass rushing success outside of one or two games and we were told about his crazy "potential" as a pass rusher. Now after his 3rd year in the NFL we're still being told all about his "potential" as a pass rusher.

 

At some point the rubber needs to meet the road.

[Koolblue13]

40 minutes ago, CrypticVillain said:

Panthers 2002: 2nd (Just one season as DC)
Jaguars (HC) 2003: 6th and (3rd year) 2004: 11th
Broncos (DC) 2013: 19th and (3rd year) 2014: 3rd
Raiders (HC) 2016: 26th (3rd year) 2017: 23rd

 

I was excited seeing your post KB, now I'm terrified. 😂

I tend to get really excited and be wrong a lot. I have a terrible memory and pretty bad ADHD, which isn't helped much by living in the Caribbean due to the major rum consumption, but I'm generally optimistic and a lot of fun at games.