Biden/Harris Legislative/Policy Discussions - Now with a Republican House starting 2023

[bearrock]

7 hours ago, DEASkins said:

I couldn't stand Trump, but my wallet liked him

 

6 hours ago, DEASkins said:

I didn't and still don't support Trump's antics or conduct but to answer your question, yes in the end I would trade good national policies coming from an ahole compared to incompetent policies coming from a sweet talking politician. 

 

 

 

I would hope that Americans consider more than the impact to their wallets in evaluating policies.

[DEASkins]

5 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

 

I would hope that Americans consider more than the impact to their wallets in evaluating policies.

If you used my quote correctly I implied personal wealth along with good national policies, offset by ahole manners

Edited December 19, 2021 by DEASkins

[skinsmarydu]

might've taken that a little too far, considering my last smackdown

Edited December 20, 2021 by skinsmarydu

[bearrock]

36 minutes ago, DEASkins said:

If you used my quote correctly I implied personal wealth along with good national policies, offset by ahole manners

 

Well, to be fair, your two posts could be read either way ("personal benefit and good national policy" vs "personal benefit IS good national policy") Appreciate the clear up to show that you fall in category 1 (And I won't make assumptions on whether you feel the principle is actually applicable to Trump since you only mentioned how the Trump policies affected your wallet without  opining whether you believe his policies were good national policies independent of their effect on your bottom line. Though it does pique my curiosity on whether you would consider policies detrimental to your interests to still be good national policies.)

 

 My point and hope still stands that I hope not many Americans fall in category 2 (regardless  of my hope,, my expectation is somewhat dubious on that account).

[DEASkins]

2 minutes ago, skinsmarydu said:

might've taken that a little too far, considering my last smackdown

Thanks for clarifying. I'm not under the assumption that a smackdown is good or bad - depends on the situation and what you learn from it. Also, for what it's worth I didn't view @Jumbowords as a smackdown.

7 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

Well, to be fair, your two posts could be read either way ("personal benefit and good national policy" vs "personal benefit IS good national policy") Appreciate the clear up to show that you fall in category 1 (And I won't make assumptions on whether you feel the principle is actually applicable to Trump since you only mentioned how the Trump policies affected your wallet without  opining whether you believe his policies were good national policies independent of their effect on your bottom line. Though it does pique my curiosity on whether you would consider policies detrimental to your interests to still be good national policies.)

 

 My point and hope still stands that I hope not many Americans fall in category 2 (regardless  of my hope,, my expectation is somewhat dubious on that account).

My apologies for not being more concise with my words. I believe I was reprimanded for not sticking to topic in this particular thread so I will only say thanks for the post and maybe we will meet again in the future

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Less than 30 minutes before he killed the Democratic Party’s most important piece of legislation, an aide was dispatched by Sen. JOE MANCHIN (D-W.Va.) to give the White House and congressional leadership a heads up.

 

The senator himself was about to go live and was prepping for his interview with BRET BAIER on “Fox News Sunday.” He was out of town with family and doing the hit via satellite, but still had his best Sunday show attire. He wore a red tie and pin-striped suit. His hair looked perfect. It would probably be one of the most viral video clips of his long career.

 

At the White House, there was panic and disbelief. He sent an aide to tell the president of the United States that he was about to go on Fox News and put a bullet in BBB?

 

Top White House officials scrambled to call the senator and talk him out of what he was about to do.

 

“We tried to head him off,” a senior White House official told Playbook, but Manchin “refused to take a call from White House staff.”

 

In Congress, there was disgust among Democrats. “Manchin didn’t have the courage to call the White House or Democratic leadership himself ahead of time,” said one Democrat familiar with the morning’s drama.

 

At the White House, the disbelief turned to a sense of betrayal. Last week, Manchin offered the president a proposal “in the $1.75T ball park.” Aides were debating Sunday morning whether they should release the Manchin document or not. “It is in writing,” said the same official. “Listen to what Manchin himself said all week. How many times did he say he ‘did not oppose’ the bill, just wanted to line up programs with pay fors?”

[Fresh8686]

3 hours ago, DEASkins said:

If you used my quote correctly I implied personal wealth along with good national policies, offset by ahole manners

What good national policies? And which one in particular is so good that you would take that in return for no longer being a democratic country that could claim having non-violent transfers of power? To have your democracy downgraded as a country and for the top experts on authoritarianism to be ringing alarm bells at our country’s descent? 

 

Which one is worth having a losing president performing a failed coup? Which one is worth minimizing these actions as “antics” and voting for this failure of a human again?

 

I have yet to see a republican properly explain how supporting trump doesn’t make them either an ignorant mark or a traitor. 

[NoCalMike]

7 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

What good national policies? And which one in particular is so good that you would take that in return for no longer being a democratic country that could claim having non-violent transfers of power? To have your democracy downgraded as a country and for the top experts on authoritarianism to be ringing alarm bells at our country’s descent? 

 

Which one is worth having a losing president performing a failed coup? Which one is worth minimizing these actions as “antics” and voting for this failure of a human again?

 

I have yet to see a republican properly explain how supporting trump doesn’t make them either an ignorant mark or a traitor. 

 

That's more or less where I am at.  Dislking Trump doesn't make someone not a conservative or  a Republican.  And you can even agree with some of Trump's policies along the way.  I just fail to understand how in retrospect they still feel 4 years of Hillary or Biden is worse than voting for someone who is pretty up front about his disdain for Democracy itself.  I fail to see any of Biden's policies "destroying the fabric of society" versus just the typical neo-liberal "hey, let's raise taxes on the wealthiest Americans a percentage point or two, but all the other nefarious things they do.....eh, no big deal"  The Democratic voters in large went out of there way to find the most boring middle of the road old white boomer prototype they could find and for their efforts, they are still called communists/socialists/etc etc

 

If  Hillary sucked, and/or if Biden sucks by the time 2024 rolls around, guess what, there will be an election, and if he loses he will leave. Easy & quietly, congratulating his opponent and hoping for the best.  The fact that Trump did the opposite. should be red flag enough for the entire country to never want anything to do with him again.

Edited December 20, 2021 by NoCalMike

[skinsmarydu]

I got a push on Dubya last week by someone 20 years younger than me, that he was worse than trump. 

I responded like most normal people would: I never questioned Dubya's patriotism, (tho sometimes things went thru channels they shouldn't have.)

 

I always questioned trump's. 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I don’t think this is a flex from Manchin. I think this has been the plan all along. Everything the GOP does is designed to run out the clock. We are powerless.

[skinsmarydu]

6 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I don’t think this is a flex from Manchin. I think this has been the plan all along. Everything the GOP does is designed to run out the clock. We are powerless.

But if this isn't a flex, he's been on their side all along...which makes him drastically dishonest.  

[Larry]

1 hour ago, skinsmarydu said:

 

I responded like most normal people would: I never questioned Dubya's patriotism

I certainly did. And still do. 
 

Just for example, exploiting a national tragedy so you can start a war of choice may involve a lot of flag waving, but it's not "patriotism". 

[88Comrade2000]

It’s time to tell Joe to leave the Dem party.

[LD0506]

5 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

It’s time to tell Joe to leave the Dem party.

 

It's time to put a full court press on putting Ojeda in that seat for WV, someone genuinely representing WV's interests and showing their true nature- tough, honest, no frills/no BS kinda country boy, WV proud instead of that sack o'suet Manchin

 

Yes, I'm a dreamer

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

[Renegade7]

I agree, he needs to be primaried at minimum.

 

Your tent is too big if you're allowing conservatives to come in and wreck your liberal agenda. 

 

Love this picture, it speaks to me...

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Renegade7

[Cooked Crack]

There's no point in primarying Manchin. He's just going to crush whoever runs against him. He got 70% the last time someone tried. He's far more likely to lose to a republican than any democrat. He sucks but that's what West Virginians want apparently.

There's no point in primarying Manchin. He's just going to crush whoever runs against him. He got 70% the last time someone tried. He's far more likely to lose to a republican than any democrat. He sucks but that's what West Virginians want apparently.

[LD0506]

15 minutes ago, Cooked Crack said:

There's no point in primarying Manchin. He's just going to crush whoever runs against him. He got 70% the last time someone tried. He's far more likely to lose to a republican than any democrat. He sucks but that's what West Virginians want apparently.

There's no point in primarying Manchin. He's just going to crush whoever runs against him. He got 70% the last time someone tried. He's far more likely to lose to a republican than any democrat. He sucks but that's what West Virginians want apparently.

Pffft, I don't buy that one bit.

He's not what West Virginians want, he's want the WV political machine wants.

It kinda pisses me off that once again WV is the target of dismissive, abusive commentary when it is full of utterly great people, funny, savvy, cute, caring, great cookin people that have never had one syllable of say in what happens there. It has never been about what West Virginians want.

In most of the ostensibly "red" areas there are tons of people that are kind, noble, caring and intelligent that are held captive by a system that allows the abusers to stay in power.

 

**** Manchin

I'm kinda tired of the mercantile politics that assume" We can't win there so there's no point in even trying", find your best candidate, back them without reservation, run a race, don't just amble along for show. If nothing else force the owned to spend their ill-booten gotty on defending the seat.

 

Stop playing politics like it's Monopoly, actually stand for something.

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, LD0506 said:

Pffft, I don't buy that one bit.

He's not what West Virginians want, he's want the WV political machine wants.

It kinda pisses me off that once again WV is the target of dismissive, abusive commentary when it is full of utterly great people, funny, savvy, cute, caring, great cookin people that have never had one syllable of say in what happens there. It has never been about what West Virginians want.

In most of the ostensibly "red" areas there are tons of people that are kind, noble, caring and intelligent that are held captive by a system that allows the abusers to stay in power.

 

**** Manchin

I'm kinda tired of the mercantile politics that assume" We can't win there so there's no point in even trying", find your best candidate, back them without reservation, run a race, don't just amble along for show. If nothing else force the owned to spend their ill-booten gotty on defending the seat.

 

Stop playing politics like it's Monopoly, actually stand for something.

West Virginia earned every word said about it and I say that since I grew up in Beckley and my parents still live there.

[China]

Ilhan Omar Buries Manchin on MSNBC: His Excuses Are ‘Complete Bullsh*t’

 

Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-MN) condemned Sen. Joe Manchin (D-WV) for announcing he will not support the Build Back Better bill.

 

Appearing on MSNBC’s Velshi Sunday, the Minnesota Democrat ripped Manchin — accusing him of using phony reasoning to explain his position.

 

“We all knew that Senator Manchin couldn’t be trusted,” Omar said. “The excuses that he just made, I think, are complete bull****.”

 

Omar went on to list a number of the $1.75 billion bill’s initiatives, including child tax credits and elderly care funding, and argued that Manchin was turning his back on his consituents.

 

“It is really disheartening to hear him say that he has been trying to get there for the people of West Virginia, because that’s a complete lie,” Omar said. She added, “There are just so many things that the people of West Virginia desperately need. And we know that he is not working on behalf of their interests. And I really am completely disappointed and disgusted by his reasoning.”

 

Click on the link for the article

 

I think this comment would be better if it came from the president.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

11 hours ago, Fresh8686 said:

What good national policies? And which one in particular is so good that you would take that in return for no longer being a democratic country that could claim having non-violent transfers of power? To have your democracy downgraded as a country and for the top experts on authoritarianism to be ringing alarm bells at our country’s descent? 

 

Which one is worth having a losing president performing a failed coup? Which one is worth minimizing these actions as “antics” and voting for this failure of a human again?

 

I have yet to see a republican properly explain how supporting trump doesn’t make them either an ignorant mark or a traitor. 

he already gave the answer, he values money over all of that.
 

screw everyone else and the future of the country, he’s getting his and doesn’t have to worry about those less fortunate 

[China]

Statement from Press Secretary Jen Psaki

 

Senator Manchin’s comments this morning on FOX are at odds with his discussions this week with the President, with White House staff, and with his own public utterances. Weeks ago, Senator Manchin committed to the President, at his home in Wilmington, to support the Build Back Better framework that the President then subsequently announced. Senator Manchin pledged repeatedly to negotiate on finalizing that framework “in good faith.”

 

On Tuesday of this week, Senator Manchin came to the White House and submitted—to the President, in person, directly—a written outline for a Build Back Better bill that was the same size and scope as the President’s framework, and covered many of the same priorities. While that framework was missing key priorities, we believed it could lead to a compromise acceptable to all. Senator Manchin promised to continue conversations in the days ahead, and to work with us to reach that common ground. If his comments on FOX and written statement indicate an end to that effort, they represent a sudden and inexplicable reversal in his position, and a breach of his commitments to the President and the Senator’s colleagues in the House and Senate.

 

Click on the link for the rest

 

 

[goskins10]

10 minutes ago, China said:

Ilhan Omar Buries Manchin on MSNBC: His Excuses Are ‘Complete Bullsh*t’

 

Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-MN) condemned Sen. Joe Manchin (D-WV) for announcing he will not support the Build Back Better bill.

 

Appearing on MSNBC’s Velshi Sunday, the Minnesota Democrat ripped Manchin — accusing him of using phony reasoning to explain his position.

 

“We all knew that Senator Manchin couldn’t be trusted,” Omar said. “The excuses that he just made, I think, are complete bull****.”

 

Omar went on to list a number of the $1.75 billion bill’s initiatives, including child tax credits and elderly care funding, and argued that Manchin was turning his back on his consituents.

 

“It is really disheartening to hear him say that he has been trying to get there for the people of West Virginia, because that’s a complete lie,” Omar said. She added, “There are just so many things that the people of West Virginia desperately need. And we know that he is not working on behalf of their interests. And I really am completely disappointed and disgusted by his reasoning.”

 

Click on the link for the article

 

I think this comment would be better if it came from the president.

 

100% spot on.  It’s time he become presidential.   You don’t have to mean spirited to be forceful and apply pressure. 

[Llevron]

Its too late but its good to see them light his ass on fire in the media. 

 

I think smart politics is make him the bad guy here. Burn his politics to the ground. Force him to be the Republican if thats what he wants.....publicly. 

 

But give him a way out privately. Which is voting rights. Tell him he can be the hero there and reform his image. And then if it works primary his ass every chance you get until it works. 

 

[tshile]

17 hours ago, bearrock said:

 

 

I would hope that Americans consider more than the impact to their wallets in evaluating policies.

Going to ignore the context this was involved in and pull it out to be on topic with the thread:

 

yes. This is how most people behave in my experience. And I think it’s a major part of why our system is in its current state. 
 

there are exceptions. I don’t want to pretend there are not. There are people who are doing well enough in life and find themselves in a position or choosing to support something that’s better for the country (or their state or their county) but is bad for them personally in terms of immediate/basic sense. 
 

we can ignore the idea that maybe I pay more on taxes but it improves the place I live so net/net i benefit. I’m talking very simple analysis - my taxes go up and I’m not a recipient of the benefit.

 

The number of times a persons argument is based on this idea that so and so was good/bad for my wallet, is insane. 
 

the easiest example is the latest gop tax policy and change. Just the high notes:

- gonna pay for itself, but depends on >4% gdp grown annually, and no respectable economist this is possible/reasonable. 
 

- in order to make it pass their rules, they left the business cut permanent and made the people cut expire in 7 years… with a “we won’t let it expire we promise” garbage explanation (since we struggle with such basic analysis I won’t get into, but will mention, that it seems obvious the play is to use the expiration as political fodder. Don’t vote for Dems, they’ll let it expire. Even if letting it expire is the only way to deal with how bad this policy is for our debt)

 

So yeah.  My family got a huge return on this.  But it expires. And it’s bad for the country. And it ultimately means services are cut. 
 

but explain this to them and they look at you like a second head just grew out of your neck. 
 

public vs charter schools - same problem. 
 

these are the same people that scream hyper inflation but never seem to k ow what they’re actually talking about; and as far as I can tell they’ve been wrong every single time while I’ve been alive (going on 37 years now)

 

this is how people determine things.

 

we see it elsewhere - the number of people who think student loan debt should be forgiven, who either have or had student loan debt so they are personally tied to the issue, but don’t seem to be for (or even aware of) how other people have struggled or are affected by the high cost of education) is shocking to me. Start taking to them about the rest of it and it’s clear they’ve never considered any of it. They’re not for tackling the cost of education - they’re for doing something about a very specific problem they have (or had) and that’s the extent of their ‘concern’

 

yeah. People are selfish. People have a hard time seeing, understanding, or caring about problems others have that they don’t. And they all want you to support them - but don’t give two ****s about supporting you. 
 

for me, personally, as someone who’s just above the line where basically you’re paying for things others can have and not receiving much of anything yourself, it’s frustrating. I find myself bouncing between the moralistic virtues of supporting these things because it’s better for others, and saying **** off you don’t care about my problems why should I care about yours?

 

Anyways. Don’t want to debate the examples - we have other threads for them. Just recent ones I remembered. 
 

In my experience it’s very difficult to get people to understand something that has no impact on them; getting them to support it is even harder. And that’s not a uniquely Republican thing. 
 

this is what makes it so hard for democrats. They push policies that are for helping people - and they struggle to get buy it from the people it doesn’t directly help. Republicans, meanwhile, seem to be able to do whatever they want as long as they occasionally throw a bone about tax cuts to the people - even if the economics of the tax cut are bad, if they see a tax cut that’s all they care about. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by tshile