Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[Skinsinparadise]

Logan Paulsen on Heinicke on Keim's podcast.

 

A.  His fear about him was what happened on Sunday as far as picks.  He mentioned in another podcast he saw Heinicke up close, either on the same team or against, I don't recall and he saw picks from him, he referred to that back on that podcast as a concern.  If I recall that podcast was in the summer.  Back to today, he said he could have had picks in the other games but lucked out.

 

B.  He thinks Heinicke though could learn from those experiences and will improve as to avoiding throwing the ball in harms way.

 

C.  He said he's heard from others in that building that Heinicke is smart and works hard

 

D.  He said defenses are very good at learning what a QB doesn't do well and box that weakness successfully

 

E.  He wants to see how the chess game unfolds between Heinicke and opposing defenses adjusting to him.  For that reason he wants a bigger sample to judge him.

 

Lol, maybe its the wrong game to showcase because Alabama's defense is really good and maybe he has a meltdown game but for those Heinicke fans here who have some time to watch college football this weekend, I'd be curious what you guys think of Corral?  Corral reminds me of a more gifted Heinicke.    He plays with his kind of moxie and stylistically he reminds me of Heinicke.  But he's a bigger dude, stronger arm and I think even slightly faster too. 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[ThomasRoane]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Agreed on this point, that the only way I see Taylor being successful enough to be considered a legit starter in the league is via a stout running game that opens up PA opportunities regularly.  That said, I'm not sure Turner committing to running it for the sake of running it, means that we will be successful doing it.  How many offenses in this day and age are run dominant and actually dominate regularly with that approach?  Outside of the Titans who have Derrick Henry, who else is really doing this? 

 

When I coached, by the 3rd game I had a good handle of what I had on hand and what could work vs our opponents.  That requires some serious self-reflection and self-examination.  You have to be honest about what you have and what you don't have.  It's less about what the league is doing as a whole and more about the WFT offense maximizing its assets and minimizing its liabilities.  

 

Here is why I think a power/play-action attack is what the WFT needs now to salvage the season.

 

1)  The defense is a mess.  They're not trustworthy enough to keep the team in the game.  They've been scouted and exploited and have yet to plug the holes.  That will most likely continue to be the case with the lineup of top notch QB's still to be faced on the schedule.  Best way to help them out is to minimize how much time you keep them on the field.  It's gut wrenching to say that with all the draft capitol that has been spent there but here we are. 

2)  The QB is not quite tall enough and doesn't have the arm strength to drop back and throw the ball 40 times a game.  He is however, mobile, smart, gutsy, and is not afraid to take shots if needed.  (See also #3)  TH in the play action or boot game could be a menace to a defense.  (Look at the 49ers and the Packers; even the Ravens to some extent) 

3) Even if TH had a gun and was 6'2"+ who can you say without a doubt that you can count on as receivers?  There's #17.  Logan Thomas is trustworthy.  Brown, Sims, and Humphries have all had drops and if you watch the all 22 they're getting open but it's not early in the route.  Until Samuels can play more than 2 games in a row you can't count on winning thru the air.  No matter how good the route concepts are the receiver has to win early and make the catch. 

4) You have questions at LG, LT, and RT.  They're not bad.  But the best way to help an Oline that is learning to play together is on the ground.  Ask any ex lineman on Offense what they love most?  Dropping in a pass set or getting off the ball and driving a defender into the dirt?  They'll almost always choose run blocking.  They seem to be holding up now in pass coverage and part of that is because A. teams don't want TH to scramble and B. besides #17 they feel like they can cover the rest of our receivers and make TH hold the ball or make a mistake.  (Which has been happening)

5) As far as talent goes, you have a top 5 RB who can play every down in The Gibson.  He wants to carry the load and should be given the chance.  There's no reason he shouldn't get the ball 20+ times a game.  McKissic and Patterson can give him a blow and aren't bad options either.

 

Don't know if this could work beyond this year.  They don't have that luxury.  The WFT needs to find a way to beat ATL this week.  Then find a way to compete with teams that are playing much better now than they are.  If Turner continues to just stubbornly stick to his system he's going to be disappointed.  Everyone will blame the QB.  They'll make a change.  The result will be the same. 

 

Or, they can get physical and be the attackers; maybe that would rub off on the defense.  Punish the opposing defense with some 2 and 3 TE formations (all three TEs can block and catch).  You may not see results early but it will get to them as the game goes on.  Of course, you have your shot plays off your best runs.  Some RPOs, counters and traps off your power runs.  Find a few route concepts you can count on (mostly involving #17) and get to them with different looks, shifts, and formations.  TH would be deadly on the edge in the boot game.  The boot pass can be deadly.  You fake one way, boot opposite and have receivers flooding that zone.  Give TH a high low read with 3 receivers crossing the formation.  He can throw it or run out of bounds.  He's got the wheels to defeat DEs and if the DBs come up then they leave their zones.  First, you have to make the defense respect the run.  That is not happening right now.  

 

Coach what you have on hand.  Not what you wish you had.  That's how you turn things around when your team is struggling.  

 

McLaurin Gets it...

Quote

 

But as talented as McLaurin is, he won't be deployed on that side of the ball anytime soon. However, the pass catcher does feel like he, plus the rest of his offensive brethren, can contribute to the defense's cause.

 

"You've just got to continue to support those guys," McLaurin said. "We've got to put them in better situations and make sure they're not on the field too many times for too long. We've got to take care of the ball, get first downs, allow our special teams to put their offense in backed-up situations and things like that."

 

Source:  Terry McLaurin wants Washington's offense to help the defense 'turn it around' | RSN (nbcsports.com)

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[Malapropismic Depository]

39 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Logan Paulsen on Heinicke on Keim's podcast.

 

A.  His fear about him was what happened on Sunday as far as picks.  He mentioned in another podcast he saw Heinicke up close, either on the same team or against, I don't recall and he saw picks from him, he referred to that back on that podcast as a concern.  If I recall that podcast was in the summer.  Back to today, he said he could have had picks in the other games but lucked out.

 

B.  He thinks Heinicke though could learn from those experiences and will improve as to avoiding throwing the ball in harms way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I want to add to this, and remind everyone, that when Cousins first started out as a Starter, he was very bad at turning the ball over and throwing picks.

Fans here called him a Turnover Machine.

I'm not saying he's going to turn into Kirk Cousins Good, but the fact is that young quarterbacks CAN absolutely overcome issues with throwing picks. It's not an incurable condition. And just like Defenses can make adjustments for new QB's weaknesses or strengths, it works the other way around too - QB' can continually adjust to Defenses. Or at least they have the potential to do so.

[ThomasRoane]

4 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

And just like Defenses can make adjustments for new QB's weaknesses or strengths, it works the other way around too - QB' can continually adjust to Defenses. Or at least they have the potential to do so.

 

The good ones can make that adjustment.  If TH can avoid the TOs then he's a good one.  (Not saying great so don't freak out)  But he would have a career in the NFL.  Even if as a journeyman backup with the potential to be a winning starter with the right gameplan.  

[Skinsinparadise]

37 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

 

I want to add to this, and remind everyone, that when Cousins first started out as a Starter, he was very bad at turning the ball over and throwing picks.

Fans here called him a Turnover Machine.

I'm not saying he's going to turn into Kirk Cousins Good, but the fact is that young quarterbacks CAN absolutely overcome issues with throwing picks. It's not an incurable condition. And just like Defenses can make adjustments for new QB's weaknesses or strengths, it works the other way around too - QB' can continually adjust to Defenses. Or at least they have the potential to do so.

 

Sure.  And Paulsen said the same as I put in my post.  His take is simply the verdict isn't in one way or another. 

 

You can have turnover issues and conquer them. 

You can have a defense adjust successfully to a new QB and conversely that QB can adjust back.

 

In short, the movie can go in different directions so let it play out.  Don't get too high, don't get too low.  

 

Heinicke could end up another in the sea of QBs who teased in a short samples and ended up just being a guy.   Heck Colt McCoy at one time was considered the answer in Cleveland.  Sanchez with the Jets.  Minshew was all the rage for a time.  Foles.  Plenty of others like that.   It was a fun story for a stint and then it came crashing down.  We've had our fill of that here, too.  

 

Or, he could end up one of those stories of QBs that came out of the blue and succeeded.  Kurt Warner.  Tony Romo.  Brad Johnson.

 

For me, I wouldn't bet my mortgage either way.  If I had to bet, I would lean in favor as to his play but i am a bit of a pessimist as to his durability.  I tend to be a sucker for every young QB on a temporary basis when they tease some ability, even with QBs that I expressed on the aggregate that I don't think have it.  I am actually like that with all of our players.  I am more of an optimistic than a pessimist when it comes to our young players generally. I think they all deserve rope and a chance to showcase what they got. 

 

But my feelings have been crushed too many times to buy into any QB based on a short sample -- that party has crashed everytime here, its not a new narrative and I've seen enough of it crash elsewhere around the league too that its made me a skeptic just like Paulsen about fully buying in to a QB without a deeper sample size.

 

I suspect Heinicke will have a good game this Sunday and the arrow will be pointing up.  If so that's cool.  But I'll still want to see give or take 6 games of him before landing hard on a take.   But I do like the short sample thus far. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

18 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Taylor is going to break some of yalls hearts when it comes contract time.  The market is not fair, and jus because some of ua want to be modest doesn't mean another QB hungry team will.

 

If Heinicke ends up being a decent but not great or elite QB I guess the question then is whether or not we want to be the team that overpays for a middle of the road guy. 

 

It's a tough situation because you don't necessarily want to give up the guy you basically developed (even though he'll already be 29 next season), but at the same time you probably don't want to invest that much of your cap in a guy who's not going to be able to put the team on his back and will likely require a great team around him to be successful.

 

Though it also would depend on exactly how much "overpaying" is in that situation, and whether or not other teams think he's worth it. I keep thinking that eventually teams will sour on the "overpaying for a good but not great QB" thing, but it doesn't seem to happen. Vikings paid an arm and a leg for Cousins because they thought he would take them over the top, and they ended up with nothing but wasted cap space.

[Skinsinparadise]

Not sure where this goes but this rumor is spreading today on twitter.  Personally i doubt it.  I recall Hoffman said years back talking to scouts he knew with the team they weren't high on Tua.   And another beat guy said something similar, i am forgetting whom.   Though granted this is a new FO to some extent. 

 

 

 

[Cooleyfan1993]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Not sure where this goes but this rumor is spreading today on twitter.  Personally i doubt it.  I recall Hoffman said years back talking to scouts he knew with the team they weren't high on Tua.   And another beat guy said something similar, i am forgetting whom.   Though granted this is a new FO to some extent. 

 

 

 

Funny, i just shared that tweet in the ATN random thot thread a couple minutes ago too. 
 

i dont see it happening either, but who knows🤷🏻‍♂️ Especially if we lose to Atlanta on Sunday 

[88Comrade2000]

If we got Tua; who would get cut? Fitzy, Taylor or Kyle?

[Warhead36]

This might sound crazy but I'm not even sure I'd want Tua even for a 2nd. He's been mostly really bad. The Fins offense actually looked better with Brissett last week for the whole game and even last year Tua was being benched for Fitz late in close games.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I haven’t watched him play much and I’ve heard nothing good.  But for whatever reason, it’s appealing to me.  I’m blaming it on my WFT ptsd.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

54 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

This might sound crazy but I'm not even sure I'd want Tua even for a 2nd. He's been mostly really bad. The Fins offense actually looked better with Brissett last week for the whole game and even last year Tua was being benched for Fitz late in close games.

 

You don't sound crazy.  I think that's a normal take.  Or we're both crazy.

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Rdskns2000 said:

If we got Tua; who would get cut? Fitzy, Taylor or Kyle?

 

Fitz is on IR. We would cut a non QB.

 

But I would take that rumor with a huge pinch of salt.

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

This might sound crazy but I'm not even sure I'd want Tua even for a 2nd. He's been mostly really bad. The Fins offense actually looked better with Brissett last week for the whole game and even last year Tua was being benched for Fitz late in close games.

 

It's not crazy. He's looked so so at best in his appearances so far - and if Miami are really prepared to cut bait and move him at a discount this early that tells you something.

[Capsman]

So Tua will go to "Quarterback U" Washington as a relative reclamation project?  🤣

[Koolblue13]

15 minutes ago, Capsman said:

So Tua will go to "Quarterback U" Washington as a relative reclamation project?  🤣

It's better than the jets? Maybe?

[CobraCommander]

Tua is not that dude. And even if he is we are not that team to help him in any way.

 

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

24 minutes ago, Florgon79 said:

Tua is not that dude. And even if he is we are not that team to help him in any way.

 

 

 

And to think, people wanted to "Tank for Tua"

 

30 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

It's better than the jets?

 

 

I read this, to the tune of...

 

[CapsSkins]

First of all, why wouldn't the Texans want Tua as part of the Watson return?

 

And if they don't want him, and Miami doesn't want him, why should we give up a 2nd round pick?

 

Makes no sense IMO.

[ThomasRoane]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Not sure where this goes but this rumor is spreading today on twitter.  Personally i doubt it.  I recall Hoffman said years back talking to scouts he knew with the team they weren't high on Tua.   And another beat guy said something similar, i am forgetting whom.   Though granted this is a new FO to some extent. 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like a classic Snyder move.  A move of such genius.  Only Dan would think of trading a potential starter for a damaged QB who couldn't really beat out the aging veteran we have on IR.  

Edited September 30, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[mistertim]

Why would we give up a high draft pick for Tua? He's looked no better than our cheap UDFA for the most part and he has an even worse injury history. That would be a pretty dumb move. 

[zCommander]

Taylor Heinicke: Game manager is fine with me

Josh Alpe

14 hours ago

 

Washington head coach Ron Rivera shared one of his goals for quarterback Taylor Heinicke earlier this week.

“I have no problem with it,” Heinicke said, via Nicki Jhabvala of the Washington Post. “That’s what every quarterback should be — game manager. You take what’s there, take what’s given, and you move the ball down the field. That’s something I want to do; that’s something I want to be, but at the same time I know there’s also other aspects of my game that can help, whether it’s on my feet or whatnot. ‘Game manager’ is fine with me. Just keep moving the chains, get the ball in those guys’ hands and score some points.”In the wake of Heinicke’s two interceptions in last Sunday’s loss to the Bills, Rivera said that he wants the quarterback to “do things in more of a game-manager way” because “bad things seem to happen” when Heinicke tries to force things. Some quarterbacks have bristled at the game manager label over the years, but Heinicke said on Wednesday that he’s happy to wear it.

 

Heinicke’s riskier plays have sparked the offense at times, but he said “the biggest thing is just sticking to the game plan” and not going off script when the opportunity presents itself. He’ll test that approach out in Atlanta this weekend.

[skinny21]

With the caveat that my football knowledge is fairly rudimentary…

 

I mentioned before that the one problem with pushing for Heinicke to be more of a game manager* is that the way the D is playing kind of works against this (IMO).  With that said, improving that part of his game could really pay dividends.  I say this because if I’m a D coordinator, I’m looking to keep Taylor in the pocket and to play a zone D that can keep their eyes on him - both to limit any runs, and to look for the forced/floating balls they can pick off.  I’d shade coverage toward Terry and Logan.  I think this suits Gibson and McKissick.  Also suits Sims I think (and Harmon, but he’s a nonfactor at this point) removing the need to get off man coverage and giving Heinicke a big target in the soft spots between zones.  Samuel getting into the lineup and producing will make life tougher on the safeties too.

 

Ironic comparisons, but ideally I’d like to see Heinicke play like a more conservative Fitzpatrick (with better wheels) or a more aggressive Alex Smith.

 

*game manager has different connotations of course, I’m using in the context of playing more conservatively - taking the dump offs, throwing the ball away, etc.  

 

Side note - with the defense scheme I mentioned above, I’d like to see Reyes get in the game.  With his athleticism, I think he and our backs would put significant stress on linebackers in the short zones… assuming he can catch the ball.

[Skinsinparadise]

Forgetting the Kirk hate, this is not bad for Heinicke. 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, mistertim said:

Why would we give up a high draft pick for Tua? He's looked no better than our cheap UDFA for the most part and he has an even worse injury history. That would be a pretty dumb move. 

 

Yeah I've watched my share of Tua games, he's underwhelmed thus far.  And considering I've heard two different beat guys say they weren't high on Tua before the draft, I seriously doubt that rumor. 

[wit33]

Going into stratosphere of speculation and above my football prowess, but worry a false belief system is going to take over Heineke- his scrambling and play making is an issue and must be fixed. He must fight the external forces and stay true to what he feels makes him special.
 

My belief is the interceptions were a result of him trying to remain in the pocket and be what his coaches want him to be. His legs are a check down in his world. We will not be able to find or locate the check down due to his size. 
 

Thought Ron would be a bit more open and even publicly back Heineke more in this regard, but it seems they have a clear idea of what they want from him. 
 

Free Heineke, RPOs, ROs, and a few QB runs should be featured. Guarantee these things will wake him up and get him and teammates hyped. Either he learns to protect himself or he doesn’t. Allen is waiting and ready. 
 

Win the division by any means necessary. 

 

 

[mistertim]

I don't really have a problem with a "game manager" QB, necessarily. But in this day and age of the NFL you're only going to go far with that kind of QB if you have an excellent supporting cast with a great running game, and a really good defense. And all of those are nebulous at best when it comes to WFT.

 

KC managed to get into the playoffs multiple times with the ultimate game manager Alex Smith at the helm, a really good supporting cast and stout defense. But it wasn't until they got a different maker at QB that they took the next step and became a dominant force.

 

So I'm fine with a game manager for now. But IMO if you have a game manager QB that means you should still be looking for an upgrade, just like KC did even though they were already a perennial playoff team.

Edited October 1, 2021 by mistertim