2020 Training Camp Discussion Thread

[Long Time Fan]

28 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I've said this a million times but if Gibson is having issues getting down all the things he's expected to do, why the hell not play him at WR where we are thin, let him get up to speed with the NFL and get used to the difference between there and Memphis and keep 3 other RB as well. It's simply baffling to me why they're so hellbent on expecting so much from him in terms of complexity. Learn to run routes and pick up blocks and learn how to be an NFL player before you decide to mold him into a gadget. 

My guess is the success of Christian McCaffrey has something to do with it.  McCaffrey had 116 receptions last year.  That's more than double what Terry McLaurin had last year and you have to go back to 2013 and Pierre Garcon to find any receiver, tight end, or running back that had even close to that many receptions in a single season for us.  And last year wasn't an anomaly for McCaffrey, he had over 100 receptions in 2018 and 80 in 2017.  But at the same time McCaffrey is still a threat as a running back too - arguably one of the best in the league right now.  I'm not saying they expect Gibson to be as good as Christian McCaffrey but having a player who can both play running back and be a legitimate threat as a receiver makes your offense far less predictable which has been one of our biggest problems on offense the past few years.  Yes they are throwing a lot at Gibson right now but my guess is that they see him as someone that they can use in a lot of different and creative ways.  Which would also explain why they drafted him higher than most people expected.  In the end I think the learning curve will be worth it.  

[wit33]

46 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Is there any, and I mean ANY, fear at all for putting Alex Smith on the PS?

 

Nobody is touching that contract, and if they do it would be doing us a favor. (Oh, noes, we are suddenly flush with millions in free cap space. The humanity!) While I do believe his veteran presence would be immensely beneficial this season, we could use him to save a roster spot. Best of both worlds.

Would certainly be a case of the team taking on most the cap hit in a deal. I don’t see it happening, just from transition of life thing for his family at this time. The team will keep him and wish him the best next year in his endeavors. 
 

36 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I've said this a million times but if Gibson is having issues getting down all the things he's expected to do, why the hell not play him at WR where we are thin, let him get up to speed with the NFL and get used to the difference between there and Memphis and keep 3 other RB as well. It's simply baffling to me why they're so hellbent on expecting so much from him in terms of complexity. Learn to run routes and pick up blocks and learn how to be an NFL player before you decide to mold him into a gadget. 

 

The “pie of truth” has many slices, but I’m sure it’s a bit of coach speak to make sure Gibson remains locked in his book. You’d also have to think the game day script will be limited to what Gibson is comfortable and confident in doing, but the staff appears to want him to be ready to handle a lot in the future. 

[mistertim]

Man I really hope they're not putting any sort of McCaffrey expectations on Gibson. Not that he doesn't have the talent (he and McCaffrey are both very gifted athletes, though Gibson is bigger and has a faster top gear) but as others have noted he's super raw. He was a JUCO transfer (something I'd completely forgotten about until it was mentioned here) who really only had one year of production in a big college program. I'd be pretty surprised if his head wasn't spinning right now.

 

Personally, I'd prefer them to just have him start out with simple things as opposed to throwing the kitchen sink at him, but I guess we'll see if that approach works or not. Right now he's a guy who I'd do whatever I could to get the ball in his hands and let him make plays and learn the nuances of the position(s) as he goes. But there's a reason I'm not an NFL coach so my opinion probably doesn't carry much weight compared to Rivera and Turner. 

[PartyPosse]

24 minutes ago, Long Time Fan said:

My guess is the success of Christian McCaffrey has something to do with it.  McCaffrey had 116 receptions last year.  That's more than double what Terry McLaurin had last year and you have to go back to 2013 and Pierre Garcon to find any receiver, tight end, or running back that had even close to that many receptions in a single season for us.  And last year wasn't an anomaly for McCaffrey, he had over 100 receptions in 2018 and 80 in 2017.  But at the same time McCaffrey is still a threat as a running back too - arguably one of the best in the league right now.  I'm not saying they expect Gibson to be as good as Christian McCaffrey but having a player who can both play running back and be a legitimate threat as a receiver makes your offense far less predictable which has been one of our biggest problems on offense the past few years.  Yes they are throwing a lot at Gibson right now but my guess is that they see him as someone that they can use in a lot of different and creative ways.  Which would also explain why they drafted him higher than most people expected.  In the end I think the learning curve will be worth it.  

Gibson had a grand total of 33 carries in two years at Memphis so he's still learning the RB position in addition to everything else. By comparison CMC had over 600 carries over three years.

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Man I really hope they're not putting any sort of McCaffrey expectations on Gibson. Not that he doesn't have the talent (he and McCaffrey are both very gifted athletes, though Gibson is bigger and has a faster top gear) but as others have noted he's super raw. He was a JUCO transfer (something I'd completely forgotten about until it was mentioned here) who really only had one year of production in a big college program. I'd be pretty surprised if his head wasn't spinning right now.

 

Personally, I'd prefer them to just have him start out with simple things as opposed to throwing the kitchen sink at him, but I guess we'll see if that approach works or not. Right now he's a guy who I'd do whatever I could to get the ball in his hands and let him make plays and learn the nuances of the position(s) as he goes. But there's a reason I'm not an NFL coach so my opinion probably doesn't carry much weight compared to Rivera and Turner. 

The more I'm seeing how they're treating this upcoming season the more I realize the coaching staff has no sort of expectation in terms of success and to an extent I get it. I expect a lot of drops and fumbles from AG if that's how they want to use him but in the long run it'll help him grow. 

[Long Time Fan]

5 minutes ago, wit33 said:

The “pie of truth” has many slices, but I’m sure it’s a bit of coach speak to make sure Gibson remains locked in his book. You’d also have to think the game day script will be limited to what Gibson is comfortable and confident in doing, but the staff appears to want him to be ready to handle a lot in the future. 

Definitely agree with this.  I don't know exactly what they have planned for Gibson but I think on game day they will limit what they ask of him based on how much he has picked up.  But I can also see them pushing him during practice in the hope that he retains more of the playbook sooner.

[carex]

1 hour ago, FootballZombie said:

Is there any, and I mean ANY, fear at all for putting Alex Smith on the PS?

 

Nobody is touching that contract, and if they do it would be doing us a favor. (Oh, noes, we are suddenly flush with millions in free cap space. The humanity!) While I do believe his veteran presence would be immensely beneficial this season, we could use him to save a roster spot. Best of both worlds.

 

It would allow us to keep an extra WR or LB.

 

If he ever gets to the point where he is fully participating, it is hard to see him on PUP.

 

Would there be financial implications if we cut him but assign him to the PS? I'm not sure.

 

 

Just putting a thought in peoples heads. It makes your Brains more delicious. Like sprinkles. Yum.  

Yes, his current contract would end, all the dead money would accelerate to the cap and his practice squad contract would be a totally new thing

[volsmet]

5 hours ago, Long Time Fan said:

Only real surprise here is Foster potentially on the chopping block.  At this point I will give Rivera and Del Rio the benefit of the doubt if they send Reuben packing.  But personally I would love to give him some more time to bounce back from his injury during the season.  Alternatively, if he doesn't make the final roster - I would take that to mean that they see more long term potential in some of the other LBers.  

Riveras favorite player tore his knee more than once, Davis is the perfect mentor for Reuben.

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, carex said:

Yes, his current contract would end, all the dead money would accelerate to the cap and his practice squad contract would be a totally new thing

 

I also feel like trying the PS thing would be sort of a ****ty thing to do to Alex after all he went through to get back. I realize at the end of the day it's a business and I'm sure Alex realizes that, but I'd think that if we believe he's healthy enough to potentially play he should at least be given the respect to be on the active roster...even if he doesn't necessarily suit up on game day. Maybe that's just me being sentimental though. Could be that he couldn't care less as long as he gets paid, but I don't get the feeling he's really that kind of dude. 

[Long Time Fan]

13 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Gibson had a grand total of 33 carries in two years at Memphis so he's still learning the RB position in addition to everything else. By comparison CMC had over 600 carries over three years.

Fair enough and like others have said, I don't know which is the best approach - bringing him along slower or throwing the kitchen sink at him and expecting him to learn the nuances of the running back position and route running at the same time.  But to be able to use him in a similar way as CMC he needs to develop all of the above.  That's my personal guess as to why they are currently throwing so much at him.  They've seen it work in the past and view him as a player with the potential to play a similar role - even if it is a scaled down version.    

[PartyPosse]

4 minutes ago, Long Time Fan said:

Fair enough and like others have said, I don't know which is the best approach - bringing him along slower or throwing the kitchen sink at him and expecting him to learn the nuances of the running back position and route running at the same time.  But to be able to use him in a similar way as CMC he needs to develop all of the above.  That's my personal guess as to why they are currently throwing so much at him.  They've seen it work in the past and view him as a player with the potential to play a similar role - even if it is a scaled down version.    

And any other year i'd be fine but with no exhibition games and a much more limited offseason, it's asking a lot when there's a ton of other players that need the same focus. 

[carex]

PS has been expanded to 16 with six spots for guys with any experience and you can bring two guys up the main roster each week, each individual allowed to be called up twice.  I have to expect a lot of the people who are cut are going right to the PS with COVID going on

[FootballZombie]

26 minutes ago, carex said:

Yes, his current contract would end, all the dead money would accelerate to the cap and his practice squad contract would be a totally new thing

 

Oof. If that is how it works, nix that whole Smith to PS thing.

 

I didn’t know it works like that. Do rookies that are placed on PS lose their rookie contract and get a new one? Rookie deals are valuable and span several years. Shame to drop that. It would be like throwing away perfectly good brain.

[carex]

52 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Oof. If that is how it works, nix that whole Smith to PS thing.

 

 

 

I didn’t know it works like that. Do rookies that are placed on PS lose their rookie contract and get a new one? Rookie deals are valuable and span several years. Shame to drop that. It would be like throwing away perfectly good brain.

 

 

yep, you have to be cut before going onto a practice squad, excepting some new roster rules for people on the practice squad this season coming up and going down at game time.  But they'd have to be cut out of training camp to go onto it

[mistertim]

I think the only thing they could realistically do with Alex besides putting him on the active roster would be to IR him. But that would require the team doctors to conclude that he's not physically capable of playing which would contradict Alex's doctors as well as their own opinions on him playing in TC. It would be super shady IMO and he could probably file a grievance.

 

Just put him on the active roster and not activate him on game day. He gets to fulfill his comeback story and get another year of big pay. Then in 2021 we have an out on his contract that will only result in $10.8 million in dead cap as opposed to $32+ million if we tried to cut him today. 

[Stefanskins]

11 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

Thanks? Lol..glad to see your still around 

Like bad luggage! No need to thank me it was said with genuine affection Tater!

HTTR!

[Jericho]

10 hours ago, mistertim said:

The McKissic lovefest that seems to be occurring at TC is interesting to me considering how more or less irrelevant he's been so far in his career. 4 years on 2 teams with a total of 402 rushing yards and 1 rushing TD. His pass catching was a bit better at 515 total receiving yards and 3 receiving TDs.

 

Maybe he just didn't find the right team yet? Or maybe our other RBs are just that bad? Or maybe he's just not that great? It seems like it happens often (though it's certainly not exclusive to our team)...a guy who did very little on other teams comes in and we somehow think he'll suddenly turn into something that he never showed before. 

 

Who knows, maybe we'll just get really lucky this time. At least I have more faith in the evaluation abilities of Rivera and Turner vs Bruce and Jay "I love me some Samaje and Ryan Grant" Gruden.

 

I think McKissic is the only viable option as a third down back. Barber and Peterson have shown they're not good at it. Gibson might develop there, but didn't play RB in college and is probably a mess in pass protection at this point. Love was never much of a receiver in college. Guice was actually decent at it, but we know how that turned out. McKissic isn't much of an actual runner, but as a receiver he's good. But it's a niche role and I think you'd need the right team for that to really work until you prove yourself. In this case, McKissic found a team that needed him.

 

As an aside, I can't fathom the team would consider cutting Love. Rolling with just 3 RBs seems crazy, particularly when Gibson isn't much of one at this point and McKissic is basically a receiver himself. Both Gibson and McKissic can take a few carries here and there, but are not really bell cow types. That means its Peterson or bust. And hanging your entire hopes on a 35 year old RB seems like a bad plan. At least have a back-up.

[Malapropismic Depository]

13 hours ago, volsmet said:

 The Athletic's Ben Standig reports RB Bryce Love would not make the team if Washington decides to keep just three running backs headed into the season.

•  

 

 

Yea...and Matt Ioannidis will be cut from the team - IF they decide to keep only 4 defensive linemen. 😀

[Jericho]

43 minutes ago, mistertim said:

I think the only thing they could realistically do with Alex besides putting him on the active roster would be to IR him. But that would require the team doctors to conclude that he's not physically capable of playing which would contradict Alex's doctors as well as their own opinions on him playing in TC. It would be super shady IMO and he could probably file a grievance.

 

Just put him on the active roster and not activate him on game day. He gets to fulfill his comeback story and get another year of big pay. Then in 2021 we have an out on his contract that will only result in $10.8 million in dead cap as opposed to $32+ million if we tried to cut him today. 

 

It's the same problem with Reuben Foster. There's talk of IRing him, but he needs an actual injury to do that. I think you're basically stuck with both unless you just want to move on. In Smith's case, as you stated the cap hit is enormous to make any other option impossible. I suppose with Foster he may pass through waivers and sign on the practice squad. But even that's risky.

[volsmet]

25 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Yea...and Matt Ioannidis will be cut from the team - IF they decide to keep only 4 defensive linemen. 😀

I think it’s only somewhat noteworthy because it indicates where Love is physically. 
 

[mistertim]

38 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

I think McKissic is the only viable option as a third down back. Barber and Peterson have shown they're not good at it. Gibson might develop there, but didn't play RB in college and is probably a mess in pass protection at this point. Love was never much of a receiver in college. Guice was actually decent at it, but we know how that turned out. McKissic isn't much of an actual runner, but as a receiver he's good. But it's a niche role and I think you'd need the right team for that to really work until you prove yourself. In this case, McKissic found a team that needed him.

 

As an aside, I can't fathom the team would consider cutting Love. Rolling with just 3 RBs seems crazy, particularly when Gibson isn't much of one at this point and McKissic is basically a receiver himself. Both Gibson and McKissic can take a few carries here and there, but are not really bell cow types. That means its Peterson or bust. And hanging your entire hopes on a 35 year old RB seems like a bad plan. At least have a back-up.

 

Yeah assuming that AP will still have the necessary juice is a bit risky. But as you mentioned we don't really have any other bell cow kind of backs now that Guice is a goner. Maybe we'll get lucky and Love will move into the role as he gets his legs back under him.

 

I guess we could always try to sign Beast Mode if it came down to it. He's a year younger than AP. 

[justice98]

12 hours ago, mistertim said:

The McKissic lovefest that seems to be occurring at TC is interesting to me considering how more or less irrelevant he's been so far in his career. 4 years on 2 teams with a total of 402 rushing yards and 1 rushing TD. His pass catching was a bit better at 515 total receiving yards and 3 receiving TDs.

 

Maybe he just didn't find the right team yet? Or maybe our other RBs are just that bad? Or maybe he's just not that great? It seems like it happens often (though it's certainly not exclusive to our team)...a guy who did very little on other teams comes in and we somehow think he'll suddenly turn into something that he never showed before. 

 

Who knows, maybe we'll just get really lucky this time. At least I have more faith in the evaluation abilities of Rivera and Turner vs Bruce and Jay "I love me some Samaje and Ryan Grant" Gruden.

 

He seems like a poor man's Chris Thompson.  His two seasons where he got to play,  he put up numbers in the low CT neighborhood. CT was a little better, but not a lot better.  I think he can approximate CT fairly well.

[Dark Acre]

If this team cuts Love, it'll certainly never play in Virginia.

[Riggo#44]

20 hours ago, mistertim said:

The McKissic lovefest that seems to be occurring at TC is interesting to me considering how more or less irrelevant he's been so far in his career. 4 years on 2 teams with a total of 402 rushing yards and 1 rushing TD. His pass catching was a bit better at 515 total receiving yards and 3 receiving TDs.

Raheem Mostert had 40 total carries for 5 different teams over 3 years, before blowing up for the 9ers last year, with 770 yards, 8 TDs and a 5.6 YPC. So it's not unheard of for a back to just find a groove with the right team.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[carex]

who's our number 2 center