2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[mistertim]

28 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

It was bombs away against the pass defense in the playoffs. Seattles 2013 and Denver's 2015 defenses were top flight defenses at defending the pass. Defenses are changing and defending the pass is more important than stopping the run.

 

The pass defense isn't nearly as good as the statistics indicate and the rushing defense got hurt because we played Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Jalen Hurts, and Russell Wilson. They all shredded our defense with their legs. 

 

I completely disagree with your take that we need extra help stopping the run. We did not face many good throwers last year and not identifying the pass defense as a potential weakness is just crazy to me. 

 

Teddy Bridgewater

Andy Dalton x2 and Dinucci or whatever his name is.

Wentz

Hurts

Daniel Jones x2

Lamar Jackson

Goff (who still went for 300 yards)

Dead arm Ben Roethisburger

Ryan Finley (I remember Burrow killing us before Finley came in)

 

Wow impressive group. One could argue the only elite passer we faced all of last season was Russell Wilson. No wonder why we were the #2 pass defense.

 

Ill say we need a LBer who is much better at run support than Bostic, but I'm prioritizing one that can defend the pass every single time. 

 

So the rushing and passing statistics both just happen to be skewed in a way that supports your position?

 

And one of my main points was that neither Allen nor Payne are "elite" against the run.

 

Yes those QBs gashed us when running, but we were hardly the only team they did that to. In fact, Jackson ran for many less yards vs us than against most of their other opponents. Murray ran for the same number or more yards vs at least 6 or 7 other teams. 

 

Our run defense was ok but not great. And it wasn't just QBs. We got gashed up the middle plenty of times. Part of that is on the DL and part is on the LBs not filling gaps fast enough.

[Burgundy Yoda]

36 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

Ok. I’m not discounting everyone. People that look like they run a 4.4 on the field, I’m believing. Jamin doesn’t look as fast as Parsons in one snap of either of their highlight videos. He just doesn’t move the same. Parsons looks like a legit 4.39 and Jamin looks like a 4.5 or 4.55 on the field. And that’s still good. But, I don’t look at JD’s pro day and think he’s the same athlete Parsons is. 

I didn't see a lot of sideline to sideline movement in Micah Parsons videos if we're being honest. It seems like 70 to 80 percent of the plays were rushes at the QB and I think that makes it easy on a player to play faster. The numbers speak for themselves and Jamin is incredibly athletic, even more-so than I thought the first time I watched him. 

 

I saw Jamin Davis run stride for stride with Kyle Pitts in coverage and that was enough for me. 

[Burgundy Yoda]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

So the rushing and passing statistics both just happen to be skewed in a way that supports your position?

 

And one of my main points was that neither Allen nor Payne are "elite" against the run.

 

Yes those QBs gashed us when running, but we were hardly the only team they did that to. In fact, Jackson ran for many less yards vs us than against most of their other opponents. Murray ran for the same number or more yards vs at least 6 or 7 other teams. 

 

Our run defense was ok but not great. And it wasn't just QBs. We got gashed up the middle plenty of times. Part of that is on the DL and part is on the LBs not filling gaps fast enough.

Explain to me how you think I'm trying skew things in my favor? Can we not admit that we played some garbage QBs this year? We aren't going to get gift-wrapped backup QBs next year, we're playing Mahomes, Rodgers, Herbert, Dak x2, Tom Brady, Josh Allen, and Russell Wilson again. 

 

 

I don't see how you can lead this category and then be considered average at run defense, but that's just my opinion. These guys are amongst the lead leaders at tackles for their positions. 

 

4-2-5 defenses are also a little more prone to get gashed in the run game. You have one less LBer out there and a CB or S to replace him. I just don't think we're as great against the pass as the numbers indicate, there's a lot of things that went in our favor to get that #2 rated pass defense. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:

Ok. I’m not discounting everyone. People that look like they run a 4.4 on the field, I’m believing. Jamin doesn’t look as fast as Parsons in one snap of either of their highlight videos. He just doesn’t move the same. Parsons looks like a legit 4.39 and Jamin looks like a 4.5 or 4.55 on the field. And that’s still good. But, I don’t look at JD’s pro day and think he’s the same athlete Parsons is. 

 

I guess I am becoming the Jamin Davis guy here.   At the monent he's not my top want at 19 but if they took him there I'd dig it.  The criticisms here have made me rewatch him a couple of times today and is making my man crush grow even bigger as I keep noticing more things.  For example, I love how he wraps up as a tackler.   Doesn't surprise me that PFF rates him as the best run defender among this crop. 

 

So you think Jamin Davis is tick slower than Cole Holcomb?  That's what he'd be if your take on his speed is right.

 

I used to run track. I am not bad at judging at speed, I am not always right though.  It's hard with Jamin because he's not always going full speed.  I think the thing he needs to work on is to do quicker a job of diagnosing but that should come in time I think.  He's been a starter for one year.   To my eyes you can see his speed best when he's going full steam after the QB.  And IMO to my eyes, he's not a 4.5-4.55 guy.  He looks to me to have legitmate 4.4 speed.   Is it 4.3 and change which he supposedly pulled off on his 2nd run?  Hard to say.  I'd guess his first time is more representative.  But he looks plenty fast enough. 

 

Jamin has the perfect ingredients to be fast.  Long legs with a torso that isn't that big and is lanky.  And then you add freakish agility/explosiveness (horizontal-vertical) should help give him a quick get off which helps your timed speed especially in the 40. 

 

But lets play with your premise that his speed is just good but nothing special for that spot.   Even with that premise, keep in mind, his vertical-broad jump numbers are insane.  Those speak to lower body strength and explosiveness which are arguably as important as 40 time for a linebacker.  Linebackers are rarely running 40s during a game.  I do think you are wrong about his speed.  But even if i am wrong and you are right about it -- it doesn't discount his freak explosiveness which he as far as measurables go and on that front beats Parsons. 

 

Just look at the dude in the picture below.  And think about his vertical-horizontal numbers which are crazy good -- you think Cole is a tick faster than him?

 

 

 

 

[actorguy1]

 

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

Daron Payne and Johnathan Allen are the most Slept on, Under appreciated, and Disrespected Skins...imo.  People act like its Montez and Chase and that's it, but their buddy's inside make life easier for them, do the dirty work no one appreciates and carry water for the rest of the team... Not to mention make a ton of plays too.

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Read a lot today about SF in the mix of things, if I am guessing right now, I'd say its Lance.  But if I had to pick a #2 possibility after him it would be Mac Jones.  Almost no smoke that Justin Fields is on their radar.    Doesn't mean Fields isn't in play.  But purely based on reading gossip it seems to be mostly that its either Lance or Mac to SF. 

 

I've seen on twitter today some (inlcuding Orlovsky) beating Fields up for having work ethic issues.  Read a rumor on that front months ago which I posted here.  Don't know if its true or not.  Fields is having an odd week as far as the rumorville.  Seems to be a combination of people raving about his freakish ability on display at his pro day coupled with leaks that he's a polarizing evaulation for teams with a wide variance from team to team.

 

So yeah if SF ends up going with Mac, then I'll end up wrong on that as to my initial guess.  My thought then had nothing to do with hearing any rumors or insider type gossip from reporters -- its that Mac seems like an odd player to give an RG3 type haul to go up and get.   But I admit I don't rule it out now.  When they made the trade I thought no way its Mac. 

[DCtoSC_SKINS_LIFER]

7 hours ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

Just did what I THOUGHT was a pretty realistic mock draft, and it sucks for us haha.

 

1. Jags - Lawrence

2. Jets - Wilson

3. 49ers - Fields

4. Falcons - Pitts

5. Bengals - Sewell

6. Dolphins - Chase

7. *NE - Lance

8. Panthers - Mac Jones

9. Denver - Slater

10. *Colts - Darrisaw

11. Giants - Waddle

12. Eagles - Smith

13. Chargers - Vera-Tucker

14. Vikings - Phillips

15. Lions - Parsons

16. Cards - Surtain

17. Raidahs - JOK

18. Dolphins - Paye

19. ________

 

Guess you go BPA there and take Farley, which would be a huge long-term boost to our secondary. And probably the smart move, albeit unecessary and not an immediate *need* ... I guess it doesn't "Suck" but I have gotten to a point where anyone but Darrisaw at #19 isn't a great BPA + Fit.

 

And the problem is, there isn't an obvious option at #19 that others might want to trade up for. Trading down is an easy concept in theory, not in reality.

Wouldn’t Horn have to be a strong BPA candidate in this scenario?

[sportsnut]

1 hour ago, DCtoSC_SKINS_LIFER said:

Wouldn’t Horn have to be a strong BPA candidate in this scenario?

Collins, Moerig, Jenkins, Cosmi, Horn, Farley.  I’d be happy with any of them.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Man, Zaven is a big mother****er.

[illone]

6 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Man, Zaven is a big mother****er.

he reminds me alot of montez burfict without the penalties. 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Yeah, I don't follow the draft as intently as I used to but I saw enough talk about him on here recently that I figured I should go check him out in case that actually is who we end up with. Just watched some highlights. That dude is a tank.

[RWJ]

2 hours ago, actorguy1 said:

 

Guess Kyle really likes Mac Jones much more than I do, IF PFN is connected and knows something we don't.  Maybe not.  LOL.  I've stated from the beginning though he is the real deal.  His play like everyone else's will do the talking. 

[IrepDC]

I am starting to see more mocks where Parsons falls to our pick at 19. I am seeing a few that have us selecting him. I don't buy the argument that his mistakes at 17/18 years old disqualify him from an opportunity. I watched his pro day and his comments about the character concerns. He honestly wasn't very polished in his responses and could have rubbed some over analytical types the wrong way, but I liked his honesty. He seems like a guy who would follow the lead of Jonathan Allen and Chase Young as far as how we do business around here. Rivera and Del Rio, two bad ass coaches who are former top linebackers, on top of that give me more reason to feel comfortable with taking him.

 

One thing I don't think people realize about this process is that some of the scouting going on is based on players being a future opponent. I've seen our division rivals with the LBs, for example, but that may be in preparation for us drafting one. I've heard many coaches talk about going to a pro day because they know they'll see a guy in their division or in the playoffs.

 

There is also absolutely some deception about who teams see. Every year there are players drafted by teams who had no direct contact with them. Teams do try to figure out where other teams have players rated so sometimes there is a bit of deception in the process. The extent teams go to in that deception varies, but some are very tricky.

 

Even with a player like Parsons, some teams play up their concerns in hopes that a player falls. Sometimes a player drops for real reasons, but then there's also a Randy Moss type situation every few years. I think Parsons will possibly be that guy this year. Rivera and Del Rio turn him into a beast if it happens. 

 

I am disappointed to see Jamin Davis rising so high as my greedy plan was to draft Parsons/Collins and Davis 1 and 2. We could go offense the rest of the draft at that point, but Davis has risen out of our 2md pick range this week. Maybe Parsons and Barnes from Purdue in the 3rd. We need 2 LBs to really take the defense up to the next level.

 

Zaven is still my safe fall back pick if Parsons doesn't make it to 19. He is starting to fall under the radar with all the flashy combine numbers, but he's a football player, and that too often gets overlooked during all these workouts. I was settled on Collins, but I have a growing suspicion the league will get cute and let Parsons fall to us. We have a top 3 defense the next 3 years if that happens.

[London Kev]

8 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Jamin Davis was timed at 4.41 for a 30-yard dash! That translates to 5.88 for the full 40-yards. He's a lot slower than he looks 

[KDawg]

I gotta laugh when it’s obvious the media is pushing an agenda. Here is an actual quote from Diana Russini on KJZ this AM:

 

On Fields, “He holds the ball a little after his first read.”

 

No ****. 

[mistertim]

10 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Explain to me how you think I'm trying skew things in my favor? Can we not admit that we played some garbage QBs this year? We aren't going to get gift-wrapped backup QBs next year, we're playing Mahomes, Rodgers, Herbert, Dak x2, Tom Brady, Josh Allen, and Russell Wilson again. 

 

 

I don't see how you can lead this category and then be considered average at run defense, but that's just my opinion. These guys are amongst the lead leaders at tackles for their positions. 

 

4-2-5 defenses are also a little more prone to get gashed in the run game. You have one less LBer out there and a CB or S to replace him. I just don't think we're as great against the pass as the numbers indicate, there's a lot of things that went in our favor to get that #2 rated pass defense. 

 

Our pass defense may have been a bit overrated because of playing some mediocre passers, I'll grant that. But I don't think our run defense was necessarily much better than its ranking. Those QBs who ran against us ran for a bunch of yards against many other opponents as well. And perhaps Payne and Allen just work well together, because individually neither of them is elite. They had the most stops but they didn't grade out as great against the run according to the same source as above. Payne was good and was ranked 18th out of interior DL vs the run. Allen was pretty meh and was in the 50s. Neither is elite.

 

I'm not saying I don't care about coverage for a LB. I do and I want a guy who can cover, as we've been pretty substandard when it comes to defending shallow routes where LBs are covering. Tom Brady basically said it himself and that's how they attacked us. But overall our run defense wasn't great and we need a guy who can also go downhill and fill gaps in the run game. Hopefully we'll be able to pick a guy at 19 who fits both of those things and is a true 3 down backer.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 hours ago, RWJ said:

Guess Kyle really likes Mac Jones much more than I do, IF PFN is connected and knows something we don't.  Maybe not.  LOL.  I've stated from the beginning though he is the real deal.  His play like everyone else's will do the talking. 

 

Rapoport who spent some time talking to Kyle doesn't seem to think they take Mac or at least didn't the other day maybe its changed since.  And he's not the only one.  so I wouldn't take any rumor right now as gospel one way or another.  All I am saying is I don't rule out Mac as having a chance go at #3.

 

If he does end up going it doesn't validate that he's a stud.  QBs go high all the time in the draft that end up busts.  The movie has to play out.  

[RWJ]

23 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Rapoport who spent some time talking to Kyle doesn't seem to think they take Mac or at least didn't the other day maybe its changed since.  And he's not the only one.  so I wouldn't take any rumor right now as gospel one way or another.  All I am saying is I don't rule out Mac as having a chance go at #3.

 

If he does end up going it doesn't validate that he's a stud.  QBs go high all the time in the draft that end up busts.  The movie has to play out.  

Agreed on the movie play out and yes, look at Darnold however there was much more hype about him.

[Skinsinparadise]

Kyle Trask's numbers below.   Jones ran a 4.68.  Trask ran a 5.10.    Sounds about right.  I am with Chris Sims who said while neither is mobile -- Jones is distinctly the better athlete and can move more than Trask.

 

Trask's speed I think would make him the slowest QB among the starters in the league aside from Brady unless i am forgetting one?

 

 

 

[Koolblue13]

14 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

So elite in every category but one which he was good at and size

 

 

 

I'm not even sure what those are, but what world is 6'3" 241 not great for a TE?

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Agreed on the movie play out and yes, look at Darnold however there was much more hype about him.

 

I'd take Mac over Darnold by a mile.  I've probably put more pro propaganda on this thread on Mac than anyone.  And I did it before it was cool during the college season.  I like Mac.  I just I am not 100% sold like a few here on including yourself.  I have more uncertainty about him.

 

But I have been the bandleader on him being better than Trask.  And the only reason I compare is that is who he usually is compared to among the media.  And I think the comparison helps bring home that he brings a bit more than the stereotypical old school pocket QB type.

 

I see Mac as having a chance and if I had to bet on him, i'd bet in favor.  If I had to bet on Trask, i'd bet against. 

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'm not even sure what those are, but what world is 6'3" 241 not great for a TE?

 

You got me, its odd that they are using height and weight to nullify otherwise really good scores across the board otherwise.  It would be one thing if he was 6 foot and 220 pounds.  But his height and weight to me are fine

[RWJ]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Kyle Trask's numbers below.   Jones ran a 4.68.  Trask ran a 5.10.    Sounds about right.  I am with Chris Sims who said while neither is mobile -- Jones is distinctly the better athlete and can move more than Trask.

 

Trask's speed I think would make him the slowest QB among the starters in the league aside from Brady unless i am forgetting one?

 

 

 

Agree but what is interesting to me is who they will draft as their franchise QB.  Keim speculates 2nd round.  Maybe it's the first round.  Not too impressed with Trask or Mills with a 2nd or 3rd for that matter.

[Koolblue13]

9 hours ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

Daron Payne and Johnathan Allen are the most Slept on, Under appreciated, and Disrespected Skins...imo.  People act like its Montez and Chase and that's it, but their buddy's inside make life easier for them, do the dirty work no one appreciates and carry water for the rest of the team... Not to mention make a ton of plays too.

 

 

 

[Est.1974]

Where does Kendall Fuller spend most of his reps, outside or slot ?