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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

The Jets had a period in the late aughts and early teens where they were legitimately competitive.  

 

 They haven't made the playoffs in almost 10 years.  They had a decent three year run basically before that.

 

41 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Sean Taylor and Trent Williams and London Fletcher and Champ Bailey and Clinton Portis and Chris Samuels, etc.  

 

Bailey was eons ago.  in the late 1990s.  I am not counting that Casserly era.  I don't know if I'd call Samuels elite but that was also eons go. If we got to go that far back it somewhat makes my point.   

 

Trent and Sean yes.   Clinton IMO wasn't elite, he was really good and from a Redskins perspective that makes him elite perhaps on our terms but he wouldn't count since we didn't draft him.  Ditto London Fletcher.   And they both actually help my point.  My point is drafting.  Fletcher was just as good here -- arguably even better than he was in other places in his career.  Portis arguably was a half a peg worse here than Denver but still he was really good there and really good here.  Great talent can succeed here.  My point is we've been bad at finding great talent.  And it's not that hard to piece why.

 

41 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

RGIII and Alfred Morris come in here and are actually better initially than the likes of Russell Wilson and Andrew Luck until they fall through the cracks of a totally dysfunctional organization and have their careers dissolve.  

 

I don't think though Alfred Morris was an elite talent.  You can more easily argue that Shanny's RB friendly system got the best out of him.  He didn't really succeed here or elsewhere once Shanny was gone.  You wouldn't find a bigger RG3 fan on the board than me, I was relentless pushing him and taking shots at Shanny.  But I do think in retrospect he had some of his own culpability in his own demise. 

 

41 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Also very few players who have their early career wasted/stunted by their first team end up being successful with their future teams, much less go on to be dominant players.  The league cycles through talent at a brutal rate and the first years of a player's professional career are critical and very formative.  It's hard to start from scratch all over again when you don't have the very basic level of job security that comes from being a recent draft pick in a rookie deal.

 

I get your point and I do agree with it.  My only difference is I think it's a variable in these players performance.  But I don't think its the be all and end all.  I think their #1 problem in lacking great talent is they haven't drafted great talent.  And intangibles is a key part of drafting.  Terry McLaurin came to a crap storm and looked great regardless. He might end up being one of the exceptions as to adding great players.  A great player IMO can indeed play well for a bad team.  Beckham was a monster in NY in spite of them mostly being a horrible team when he was there.  Jamal Adams is one of the best safeties in the league playing for then a terrible team. Just about all the bad teams have examples like that.  

 

We read about Adrian Peterson and know the dude now pretty well now. It's not hard to piece together why he became a Hall of Fame player.   Laron Landry ultimately came off like a knucklehead.   Knowing Peterson's intangibles, I just don't buy if we drafted for example Peterson instead of Landry he wouldn't find elite status here and or Landry would have been a stud elsewhere.   I can use that same example with other players we skipped. 

 

I made this comment on a different thread once when my wife (a Giants fan) said to me non sarcastically it was weird for her to see Adrian Peterson in a Redskins uniform.  The dude is a big time national name.  You don't see dudes like that on the Redskins.   I thought about it and she was right.  You turn on an NFL show and when they talk players its rarely about a Redskin player.  And yep even recent loser teams like the Giants have gotten their share of attention because of Beckham and now Barkley.

 

It's changing now some because of some interest in Haskins and Chase Young is a mega name.  But you may or may not recall but I was whining on the draft thread last season when for a spell the Giants were poised to get the #2 pick and i said it would make all the sense in the world, sadly, that the Giants and not us would land Chase.  Because this team doesn't really do the NFL star scene and the Giants have had theirs. 

 

And don't get me wrong,  I am optimistic that this is about to change.  But my point is I put the lack of elite players in this organization under Dan to be more on the people drafting than the coaches.  We've had some good coaches and bad coaches.   But the drafting has been "meh" arguably until recently. 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Voice_of_Reason

Voice_of_Reason

Posted
Posted

@Skinsinparadise and @stevemcqueen1, my suggestion is we take this debate to another thread.  I went around and around in circles on this topic with a few posters early in the off-season.  Even created a thread for GM or Coach first, and we had a real lively debate going.  If we want to continue this line of conversation, maybe move into that thread (or any other) so this one can get back to worrying if the sign Young wasn't running with the #1's on the first day of training camp is yet another sign of the apocalypse.  

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Vanguard

Vanguard

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Sean T didn't work with the 1s right away either. Then after the first preseason game he was with the starters for good. Its really not a big deal at all.


True.  But I wish we had at least one preseason game this year.  I don’t think one would have been a bad idea.  Maybe even the players would have been all for it?

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Anselmheifer

Anselmheifer

Posted
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2 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Aren't hip flexors the type of injury that can vary greatly in degree of severity ?


Yes. And Terry was nursing a hamstring last preseason and was fine. And Chase has no history of durability issues. 
 

But we are still the Washington Football Team. 

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:


Yes. And Terry was nursing a hamstring last preseason and was fine. And Chase has no history of durability issues. 
 

But we are still the Washington Football Team. 

 

lol, it has crossed my mind that it would be just our luck that we land an elite talent and he subsequently becomes injury prone.  Hopefully the curse is over. 😀

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 8/21/2020 at 4:48 AM, Koolblue13 said:

Samuels was absolutely elite. **** you Sip and your negativity. :ols:

 

He was very good.  Elite?  But even if so, doesn't matter.  We are going back to Casserly?    Been lots of water on the bridge since then.  Not talking about the 1990s.  But yeah even going back to that era, we weren't hot at drafting.    But was talking the last 20 years. 

 

My point was I don't think it was Norv then Marty then Gibbs then Shanny, etc's fault that we haven't had elite players the same way as other teams.  IMO it's been on primarily Scott Campbell, Vinny, Bruce, Shanny or name that dude in charge of drafting IMO.  Thankfully, Clinton Portis talked Gibbs and Vinny into drafting Sean Taylor over Winslow when they were supposedly leaning Winslow.  Those stories about Redskins scouts pushing Jordy Nelson but Dan overriding them with Malcolm Kelly -- that's on drafting IMO not as much coaching.  

 

I think my thought if anything is slightly more optimistic than @stevemcqueen1 who is one of the posters I respect the most on this board.  His analysis is some of my favorite here of all time.  Just like Darrellgreenie back in the day who i miss.   So I respect his opinion always even if I don't always though I often agree with him.  My optimism is I think we are escaping the dungeon now with Kyle in charge.   

 

I agree with him that the culture here and coaching hasn't led to foster the best player development.  I just depart some from him on this by saying its been the #1 top problem specific to finding elite talent. Also I've observed some perpetual bad teams have struck gold with some elite talent.  I think it's been a Redskins problem more than perhaps any team.   To me the culture-coaching issue is the Robin to the Batman.  The Batman to me is bad drafting.  Both points I think are relevant but one to me more so than another.  We have a lot of different coaches here some with quite the pedigree.  We've on the other hand never really had an elite draft picker. 

 

And my sunshine here is i think Kyle Smith is potentially that dude.  I think McLaurin might end up a superstar and I think Chase is almost a given to be a super star.

 

So bringing this back on point, I think Chase is going to break the mold.  Superstar.  And that's somewhat unfamiliar terrain for us Redskins fans and it should be fun to watch.  We deserve watching some elite talent for a change.    

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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