FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Voice_of_Reason]

^^ that isn’t so good, right?

The ^^ doesn’t actually really work over page changes.

 

So I’ll be sarcastic more directly: @Skinsinparadise, you’re saying that’s a problem?

 

[CTskin]

2 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:So you don’t expect anything better than being the worst starter in the league by a lot of different measures? 
 

That bar is so low and completely unreasonable 

 

I mean outside of the first point, doesn’t all that stuff apply to Minshew, Burrow, Herbert, and Jones (and Im not gonna use him in this example but hell, how many games did Kyler Murray play in college?) None of them are All Pros but they are performing like normal young QBs. Lots of ups and downs from week to week. Except their ups are way higher. 
 

Terry McLaurin would be the best pass catcher on each of those teams with maybe a case being made for Keenan Allen in LA.

Okay it’s easy to state these “measurables” after an absolutely disastrous game. I’m sure you were singing a different tune after the eagles game. the recency bias is strong here.

 

kyler and burrow were #1 overall picks, Herbert was also up there, top 5 pick I believe? They weren’t in the same category as Haskins coming out. Jones is doing the same thing Haskins is doing. Minshew is the anomaly, whose success to this day has people duMbfounded.

 

Deandre Hopkins probably wouldn’t appreciate that last statement. I’d also say as a whole, every one of those teams has a much better wr Corp... part of our problem is that all we have is McClaurin and our opponents know this.

 

again, I’m not a fan of Haskins (obviously would love to see him succeed for the team), but how can people/you completely disregard the reality of his situation? I truly don’t like taking this stance, but I don’t see any qb having success here in our current state.

[SonnySideUp]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

Nope. Just haven't seen enough. At this time last year Kyle Allen was the best QB in football. 

Is Kyle Allen underrated? He can't be a worse choice than DH. From October, 2019:

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2857471-ranking-the-nfls-top-10-quarterbacks-under-25?share=email

>>5. Kyle Allen, Carolina Panthers

Though he doesn't possess the star power of Minshew, Carolina Panthers quarterback Kyle Allen has quietly been one of the best young quarterbacks in the league dating back to last season. He's gone 4-0 as a starter in relief of Cam Newton, and not just because he has a quality team around him.

 

Allen is accurate and decisive with his throws, and he has enough mobility to make even premier pass-rushers like J.J. Watt look a little silly.

 

Though he may not become the new face of the Panthers franchise, Allen has shown all the tools needed to be a future franchise quarterback. Through three games this season, he's thrown for 674 yards with five touchdowns and zero interceptions. For his four starts, he has an impressive passer rating of 108.8.

 

The reality is that Carolina isn't going to rush Newton back from his foot injury, largely because they have a winning quarterback in Allen.<<

[Darrell Green Fan]

59 minutes ago, KDawg said:

So... Haskins needs more time to develop, but we already know who and what Kyle Allen is. 
 

The future isn’t Kyle Allen, but could be Haskins.

 

Full disclosure... I don’t think either guy is THE guy. But what makes them different? Draft position? College pedigree? 
 

I think both could benefit from some development time.

Yeah I pointed out the hypocrisy earlier about the experience of the two players.

 

This whole thing reminds me of Schuler and Frerotte.  Schuler got every opportunity, as he should have, but eventually draft position was replaced by the actual performance of the 2 in determining who would play. Now like Frerotte  I don't see Allen as a long-term answer but the similarities are there.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

 

Essentially, I think Haskins aggressive mentality (see air yard avg and penchant for tight window throws) is at odds with the newness of the system,

 

 

The first category is completions/air yards combination in other words successfully relying on air yards versus YAC.  the 2nd category is attempts-air yards.  He's not been hot at air yards.  And as for attempts -- its been pedestrian compared to the rest of the league.   He's not been much of a gunslinger.  But i do think he's pressing so I agree with that part of your point. 

 

 

[KDawg]

Just now, Darrell Green Fan said:

Yeah I pointed out the hypocrisy earlier about the experience of the two players.

 

This whole thing reminds me of Schuler and Frerotte.  Schuler got every opportunity, as he should have, but eventually draft position was replaced by the actual performance of the 2 in determining who would play. Now like Frerotte  I don't see Allen as a long-term answer but the similarities are there.

 

I'm not arguing that I'd even like to see Allen... or that I wouldn't.

 

Just trying to understand why people believe Haskins deserves the opportunity, despite poor play, but Allen who had a better year last year all things considered... Doesn't need any reps because we know who he is. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

4 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Okay it’s easy to state these “measurables” after an absolutely disastrous game. I’m sure you were singing a different tune after the eagles game. the recency bias is strong here.

 

kyler and burrow were #1 overall picks, Herbert was also up there, top 5 pick I believe? They weren’t in the same category as Haskins coming out. Jones is doing the same thing Haskins is doing. Minshew is the anomaly, whose success to this day has people duMbfounded.

 

Deandre Hopkins probably wouldn’t appreciate that last statement. I’d also say as a whole, every one of those teams has a much better wr Corp... part of our problem is that all we have is McClaurin and our opponents know this.

 

again, I’m not a fan of Haskins (obviously would love to see him succeed for the team), but how can people/you completely disregard the reality of his situation? I truly don’t like taking this stance, but I don’t see any qb having success here in our current state.

 

There is no question Haskins lacks weapons.but the concern for a lot of us is Haskins just doesn't look like an NFL quarterback in any way whatsoever. Even when he had time and receivers open he flat out and missed them and that just can't happen. He looks stiff, his pocket presence is horrible and I'm not sure that can be learned as it's more of an instinct.  He has no touch and there's just a whole lot of problems that you can't just pin on the lack of support

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

I'm not arguing that I'd even like to see Allen... or that I wouldn't.

 

Just trying to understand why people believe Haskins deserves the opportunity, despite poor play, but Allen who had a better year last year all things considered... Doesn't need any reps because we know who he is. 

 

I agree with the general point about Allen.   His sample size isn't large.  So if you are preaching patience with Haskins before coming up with conclusions the same point would apply to Allen. 

[clskinsfan]

I dont think we really have a choice for this season. We need to ride Haskins and see if he can come out of it. We have a 1st rounder invested in him. He kind of reminds me of the Cardinals and Josh Rosen. It is his ball to either feast or famine. 

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

^^ that isn’t so good, right?

The ^^ doesn’t actually really work over page changes.

 

So I’ll be sarcastic more directly: @Skinsinparadise, you’re saying that’s a problem?

 

 

 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

25 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Okay it’s easy to state these “measurables” after an absolutely disastrous game. I’m sure you were singing a different tune after the eagles game. the recency bias is strong here.

 

kyler and burrow were #1 overall picks, Herbert was also up there, top 5 pick I believe? They weren’t in the same category as Haskins coming out. Jones is doing the same thing Haskins is doing. Minshew is the anomaly, whose success to this day has people duMbfounded.

 

Deandre Hopkins probably wouldn’t appreciate that last statement. I’d also say as a whole, every one of those teams has a much better wr Corp... part of our problem is that all we have is McClaurin and our opponents know this.

 

again, I’m not a fan of Haskins (obviously would love to see him succeed for the team), but how can people/you completely disregard the reality of his situation? I truly don’t like taking this stance, but I don’t see any qb having success here in our current state.

first off, I’ve been critical of Dwayne pretty much since he’s been here because he’s played so poorly. He wasn’t good in the Philly game. That win was courtesy of the defense. I was excited when they drafted him and even tried to look past the fact that Snyder overruled everyone else to pick him. 
 

Please point out who is disregarding the reality of his situation. The point is that he isn’t the only young QB in a bad spot. He was a 1st round QB. That comes with expectations. If he can’t be held to at least Herbert’s standard (and iirc, Herbert was not a popular prospect in the lead up to the draft and in fact, Haskins was held in higher regard the year before), then that alone tells you that picking Dwayne was a mistake. Herbert came from freaking Oregon. 
 

Last point: do you think we have to ignore all his negative statistics because his situation is bad? In that case, how are we supposed to evaluate his development as fans? All we get to see are the games. Ron Rivera came out and essentially said the excuses can only go but so far. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

I dont think we really have a choice for this season. We need to ride Haskins and see if he can come out of it. We have a 1st rounder invested in him. He kind of reminds me of the Cardinals and Josh Rosen. It is his ball to either feast or famine. 

And Ron has said as much.  This is a learning and developmental year. 

 

(This next statement won't surprise anybody who knows my posting history.  It's very on brand, if you will.) I blame Gruden a lot for essentially ignoring Haskins and setting him back by basically an entire off-season last year.  (I blame Bruce/Dan for putting Jay in that position too.  It's not one stop shopping for suckitutude).  Regardless, Haskins first was ignored, then put in before he was ready, and Keim believes and has stated on the record Jay put Haskins in the game against New York because he thought he was getting fired after that game and he wanted to show everybody how far Haskins was from being ready.  Keim is not one to throw things like that around lightly, and he's also not one to really stir the pot like that unless he really believes it.  And I'm not entirely sure even _I_ believe it, but at the very least, I think you can safely say Haskins was not ready for the Giants game and there was no good outcome for him in that situation.  

 

So Haskins was ignored, not really developed, then put into a position to fail. Then when Callahan took over, he actually said in his intro presser, Haskins might not be ready at all that year. I'm guessing that's based on what Callahan had seen of Haskins to that point.  Well, he got himself somewhat ready towards the end of the year, and had a pretty good 6 quarters towards the end of the year. 

 

Then Ron gets hired.  Ron, because he wasn't born yesterday on the back of a turnip truck, probably saw some things he liked in Haskins and also knew without a question he hadn't been well prepared for the situation he was in.  So he said he wanted to see what he could do with better coaching.  And he brought in 2 guys to work with Haskins who have successfully worked with a number of young QBs.  

 

Then COVID hit and shut down the off-season program.

 

And now here we are.  Haskins might not have regressed, but he certainly hasn't progressed.  Ron wants to be 100% sure Haskins isn't the guy.  He's going to give him every opportunity to develop, learn and grow.  Because QBs don't develop by sitting on the bench holding a clipboard.  They develop by playing.

 

But at some point, Ron is going to come to a decision:  Yes, Haskins got it and is the guy for the next 4-5 years minimum, or no, it's time to go shopping.  

 

My guess is that time is at least the bye week.  If, at the midway point, we're still seeing the same stuff, then I wouldn't be shocked after the bye for them to give up on Haskins and see if Kyle Allen is the guy. 

 

I'm very much in doubt at this point. I'll tell you what, to me, is the most troubling: He has back mechanics.  You know who else had a golden arm and bad mechanics? Jeff George.  You know what George never fixed?  His mechanics.  And he never really materialized into anything resembling a good QB except for 1 year in Minnesota when he just threw bombs to a very young Randy Moss.  If you don't get your mechanics squared away, you don't step up in the pocket, you don't do the little things with your feet, nothing else matters.  You'll be late, inaccurate and inconsistent.  

 

So, unless Haskins can really start to put it together from a mechanics perspective, and do it quickly, I think he's going to be in real trouble.  But we'll see.  And we'll see for the next 5 weeks at least.

 

I will say, it's somewhat unfair to the rest of the team.  If pre-injury (I have no idea about post injury) Alex Smith was the QB of this team, they would be at worst 2-1, and possibly 3-0.  If the defense got any help from the offense, it really could be spectacular.  And there is enough talent on offense, barely, but enough, that a good QB could make something of it.  Not the greatest show on turf.  But enough to be respectable.  

[dyst]

We are always a step behind in everything. Cardinals managed to get a second for Rosen. Even if we follow in their footstep, I doubt we’ll even get a 7th for Haskins. Sucks man.

[wit33]

53 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Talent in what way? Is talent a purely physical item? Or can it be mental?

 

 

I mean, I could understand where you’re going with it from a mental standpoint, but Kyle Allen threw 16 interceptions in 12 games last year with a solid supporting cast. Many of those came in what looked like a breakdown mentally over the course of a few games. 
 

Maybe he’s the rare exception. I do think he could provide a spark, he’s definitely a much more skilled runner and playmaker. 
 

 

[volsmet]

52 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Not that I know anything, but it seems to me Haskins is pressing too much - such as not taking the quick hitters to the backs and letting them create.  Can’t be helping him that his internal clock - especially knowing his line isn’t very good - seems to be causing him to throw “early”.  Ironically, I think taking the quick passes to the flats 1) means he ain’t holding the ball, and 2) pulls defenders away from the middle of the field (ie where he feels more comfortable going with the ball).  Maybe if he starts hitting those with regularity/consistency, it opens things up for him.  
 

Essentially, I think Haskins aggressive mentality (see air yard avg and penchant for tight window throws) is at odds with the newness of the system, the design of the system (particularly the outlet throws/short passing game), the lack of trust/confidence in his oline.  Feels like this struggle makes it harder for him to feel comfortable, which in turn makes it harder to play with good mechanics (which is a work in progress as is).    
 

Can’t imagine feeling rushed and uncomfortable helps in terms of putting touch on the ball either.  

If he’s able to find his footing, so to speak, I will be impressed/surprised... at this point I expect him to be pretty much entirely snake bitten going forward.  

 

The quick stuff to backs is tougher when you see teams settle into these compressed zones all day. 

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I mean, I could understand where you’re going with it from a mental standpoint, but Kyle Allen threw 16 interceptions in 12 games last year with a solid supporting cast. Many of those came in what looked like a breakdown mentally over the course of a few games. 
 

Maybe he’s the rare exception. I do think he could provide a spark, he’s definitely a much more skilled runner and playmaker. 
 

 

Im not really making a point in favor of Allen. 
 

Im just trying to understand the double standard. 
 

It’s there.

[skinbuck]

Yes, it’s a far from ideal scenario for Haskins. But it’s time for him to nut the hell up and show everyone exactly what he’s made of.

 

The odds seem seem to be increasingly stacked against him but I wouldn’t completely count him out just yet. 

[volsmet]

47 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Okay it’s easy to state these “measurables” after an absolutely disastrous game. I’m sure you were singing a different tune after the eagles game. the recency bias is strong here.

 

kyler and burrow were #1 overall picks, Herbert was also up there, top 5 pick I believe? They weren’t in the same category as Haskins coming out. Jones is doing the same thing Haskins is doing. Minshew is the anomaly, whose success to this day has people duMbfounded.

 

 

Minshew stinks. Bigly. 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Just now, KDawg said:

Im not really making a point in favor of Allen. 
 

Im just trying to understand the double standard. 
 

It’s there.

Same here. 
 

it’s solely off of draft status. 
 

Allen might suck but I’ve seen highs from him that were way higher than anything we’ve seen from Dwayne 

[The Rook]

1 hour ago, TrancesWithWolves said:

 

Any reference to Master Kan (or even better blind Master Po) of the original Kung Fu tv series earns an obligatory “thank you” emoji and a cyber kowtow.

 

I am proud of you grasshopper...

 

Huge fan of the show, however ... 🤔

     What if, Bruce Lee had gotten the role?  He did auditioned for it.  🤩 

      But not sure middle America would have accepted him.

 

Maybe it was better he became a cult figure instead of an ABC "star".  IDK

 

 

 

The Rook

 

 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

9 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I mean, I could understand where you’re going with it from a mental standpoint, but Kyle Allen threw 16 interceptions in 12 games last year with a solid supporting cast. Many of those came in what looked like a breakdown mentally over the course of a few games. 
 

Maybe he’s the rare exception. I do think he could provide a spark, he’s definitely a much more skilled runner and playmaker. 
 

 

Solid supporting cast? 
 

They have CMC and he’s great but outside of that they have DJ Moore (solid receiver. Not better than Terry tho. Not close tbh) and Curtis Samuel (average vet). They also had broken down Greg Olsen who was constantly hurt. That’s better than what we currently have but not by much. They were 5-11. 

[mhd24]

 

 

Mark Bullock with some analysis.  The pocket is relatively clean and he the slot WR WIDE OPEN for a big gain and he panics.  and scrambles into pressure.  This is the first play of the second half where the OC presumably told him what the play is and he's ready for it, yet can't execute.

[volsmet]

Ravens getting mauled, they should be a pleasure next weekend.

7 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

Mark Bullock with some analysis.  The pocket is relatively clean and he the slot WR WIDE OPEN for a big gain and he panics.  and scrambles into pressure.  This is the first play of the second half where the OC presumably told him what the play is and he's ready for it, yet can't execute.

The one regression, pocket presence.

 

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Solid supporting cast? 
 

They have CMC and he’s great but outside of that they have DJ Moore (solid receiver. Not better than Terry tho. Not close tbh) and Curtis Samuel (average vet). They also had broken down Greg Olsen who was constantly hurt. That’s better than what we currently have but not by much. They were 5-11. 

Excuses are only for guys drafted for WFT.

 

I’m coming across more in support of Allen than I am Haskins, but that is honestly not at all the case. I just think the two guys are in the same shoes... or at least similar ones. 
 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

51 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I'm not arguing that I'd even like to see Allen... or that I wouldn't.

 

Just trying to understand why people believe Haskins deserves the opportunity, despite poor play, but Allen who had a better year last year all things considered... Doesn't need any reps because we know who he is. 

 

Well...

 

"All things considered", to me anyway, should mean considering the playing situation Haskins was dropped into last year which Allen never experienced (hell, no rookie QB I can think of has lol). Said before that pretty much all of our rookies last year should be graded on a gigantic curve, whether it's Haskins or Mclaurin.

 

I do agree that the "we know who he is" argument in relation to Allen makes zero sense...we have no idea who he could become ("we" meaning fans lol). I would like the team to (finally) develop a young, talented QB the right way for once. I can't say specifically what that should consist of, but when it comes to Haskins I'd like to think it at least includes giving him as many starts as Kyle Allen before reaching any conclusions.