FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Darrell Green Fan]

21 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Her played one full season is college and this is his first full season as a pro. I'm glad Rivera and Turner are more patient than this fan base. He's got no TE, an inconsistent Oline and 1 WR worth a **** and a brand new offense. It's a long season and it's not even over the first Quarter. 

 

This is like arguing with someone who refuses to wear a mask.  We all get this, what you need to understand is we can't keep blaming his back foot/all arm/ flick of the wrist delivery which results in inaccurate passes and all of his other problems on inexperience and a bad OL. When he had time and open receivers he sill missed them or threw a pass that made them reach and eliminated YAC often.   He misses them in practice too, maybe he'll turn it on on game day was the hope.  He's in a brand new offense, well so is every rookie QB and many have still managed to play well in a new offense with weak supporting casts.

 

Again I understand the need for patience, what you need to understand is all of the problems are very very concerning and it is certainly understandable that fans will react to what they see on the field. At some point we need to stop making excuses for him and that time is getting near.    

 

[Burgold]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Gruden really shouldn’t be blamed for Haskins. Ownership drafted a project QB in the first round for a coach who was on borrowed time. If ownership had replaced Gruden prior to that, Haskins may have had a better chance to be supported from day one. But a coach that has to win now to survive isn’t going to set that aside to let the raw rookie get some serious TLC.
 

But that’s the way the team was being run. 

That was the chief reason I didn’t want to draft a QB last year. I was all but sure that 2019 was going to be Gruden’s last year because it really looked like he lost the team by the end of 2018. No one believed. No one was buying in. Not only would no player run through a wall for Gruden, they could hardly be bothered to walk through open doors. 
 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

On another note, Sheehan played a segment of Rivera with Finlay,  I was sort of just half listening but from what i heard Rivera doubled down on at least some of what he said yesterday during at least part of that interview.  

 

 

[skinbuck]

4 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

This is like arguing with someone who refuses to wear a mask.  We all get this, what you need to understand is we can't keep blaming his back foot/all arm/ flick of the wrist delivery which results in inaccurate passes and all of his other problems on inexperience and a bad OL. When he had time he still missed open receivers.  He misses them in practice too, maybe he'll turn it on on game day was the hope.  He's in a brand new offense, well so is every rookie QB and many have still managed to play well in a new offense with weak supporting casts.

 

Again I understand the need for patience, what you need to understand is all of the problems are very very concerning and at some point we need to stop making excuses for them.   

 

It’s simply the realization that diff players may develop at diff pace. The other extreme is someone like Trubisky who’s been given 3 years to prove himself which is ridiculous as well

 

 just saying: as evidenced even by his climb last year, perhaps it just takes a bit longer for things to click with him than Minshew, Herbert and Burrow..and that’s ok, might not be a negative in the big scheme. Everyone has their journey, let’s hold judgement for another few games

[Thinking Skins]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

For me personally, I want a top 12 QB.  I don't care if Haskins ends up like the 18th best Qb in the league.   I am listening to Sheehan right now who has claimed that he's a Haskins guy yet he doesn't seem to even believe that he ever ends up a top 10 Qb but thinks his ceiling is around middle of the pack.   For me that's yawn. But for him, it moves him.  Neither one of us is right or wrong but just coming at it from a different perspective.

 

 

See, all I want is another SB. To build that I want to build a foundation and some stability. That means in part not throwing our hands up at every QB simply because they aren't the second coming. If we can find a Joe Flacco and find out that for 1 or 2 games a year he's money and the rest of the time he leans on a defense and a running game and big plays by his WRs, then so what. Do you think Baltimore fans are mad at Joe because he wasn't a better all around QB than Ryan? Who has the ring and who's the biggest choke artist in NFL history? 

 

That was my whole problem with the Campbell argument. He led them to a 5-3 record. This drops to 5-6. Sean Taylor dies and we lose to Buffalo to drop to 5-7. Then we play the Bears, Campbell goes down but we win the game and rise to 6-7. Then we win our final 3 games and everybody calls it because of the Collins insert at QB. Maybe he had something to do with it, but our offense had been moving the ball in the 4 game losing streak and I've always thought our wins were much more about the team rallying around Taylor's death. 

 

But the record has always been that Campbell wasn't an elite QB so we didn't want him. We saw it again in 2008 when we started 6-2 but couldn't do anything after that and finished 8-8. I really wish we had kept Campbell in 2010 under Shanny instead of the McNabb / Grossman / Beck experiments. He was a good not great QB who could lead a team but not take over a game. We saw the turmoil we've had since then. The only QB we've had better than him for a long period of time is Cousins (who is a better QB). 

 

But the perfect is the enemy of the good (what I always tell my wife). And we're unwilling to develop guys and so its a rotation. Not just now but under Snyder's tenure. Campbell, RG3 and Cousins are the only QBs who've really gotten a shot to grow in this era. And Cousins was either by luck of the draw or Shanny's dying wish to play him those last three games come hell or high water and then Gruden just refusing to respect RG3 at that press conference. 

 

I just want a competent QB so we can focus on other positions. Maybe he'll become a top tier guy, maybe he'll max out at a Stafford level, maybe at a Fitzpatrick level, maybe at a Flacco, maybe Goff, maybe Carr, etc. But these guys have a chance to win games and the stability at QB allows (allowed) franchises to build teams around them. We built a team around an old mediocre armless Brunell, but we could have had that same thing around Campbell under Gibbs (and Williams). 

 

But I'm getting too mad at how this fan base likes shiney toys so I'm going to stop now. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

22 minutes ago, skinbuck said:

It’s simply the realization that diff players may develop at diff pace. The other extreme is someone like Trubisky who’s been given 3 years to prove himself which is ridiculous as well

 

 just saying: as evidenced even by his climb last year, perhaps it just takes a bit longer for things to click with him than Minshew, Herbert and Burrow..and that’s ok, might not be a negative in the big scheme. Everyone has their journey, let’s hold judgement for another few games

 

I get this, my post was more about the comment about our fans.  IMO the fans have every reason to have deep concerns given the evidence.  Again it's not just the games, virtually every report has said he has had the same issues in practice too.  

12 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

I just want a competent QB so we can focus on other positions. Maybe he'll become a top tier guy, maybe he'll max out at a Stafford level, maybe at a Fitzpatrick level, maybe at a Flacco, maybe Goff, maybe Carr, etc. But these guys have a chance to win games and the stability at QB allows (allowed) franchises to build teams around them. We built a team around an old mediocre armless Brunell, but we could have had that same thing around Campbell under Gibbs (and Williams). 

 

But I'm getting too mad at how this fan base likes shiney toys so I'm going to stop now. 

 

 I think at this point Dwayne Haskins getting to the level of even a David Cars is perhaps a reach.  None of the QBs you listed have all the issues we are still seeing with Dwayne in their 2nd year.  Sometimes if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....

[JSSkinz]

I heard a small piece of JP Finlays one v one interview he does weekly with Ron and Ron was talking about the year Carolina won the division with 7 wins and how he has to be aware of the current records in the division and our ability to cease opportunity.

 

Rons quote on Haskins was "There are some things that truly concern me and growth being the biggest one"

 

"There’s a frustration to it," Rivera said Monday on the Washington Football Talk podcast. "Right now, I’m at the position where we have to see the growth. If we never play him, he never grows, but there is a point where you say, ‘OK, maybe taking a step back and watching is the best thing for you now.’ We will see." 

[TMK9973]

I have a honest question.  I dont have a opinon yet (Although my Gut says give Haskins more time).  We all know Manning and Akiman started terribile then became great.  But that was a different NFL.

 

Has there been any QB in the last - say 15 years - That was bad their 1st 16 games and became great?

 

There are lot of QB's that started GREAT and ended up Avg or bad. 

A few that started off bad that became ok.

 

But any that started off poor and then became a great QB?

 

Hell -Any QB that started off bad but then became good enough to win a SB?  (Flacco maybe?)

[theTruthTeller]

5 minutes ago, TMK9973 said:

...

 

Hell -Any QB that started off bad but then became good enough to win a SB?  (Flacco maybe?)

Trent Dilfer is your man

[Warhead36]

9 minutes ago, TMK9973 said:

I have a honest question.  I dont have a opinon yet (Although my Gut says give Haskins more time).  We all know Manning and Akiman started terribile then became great.  But that was a different NFL.

 

Has there been any QB in the last - say 15 years - That was bad their 1st 16 games and became great?

 

There are lot of QB's that started GREAT and ended up Avg or bad. 

A few that started off bad that became ok.

 

But any that started off poor and then became a great QB?

 

Hell -Any QB that started off bad but then became good enough to win a SB?  (Flacco maybe?)

Drew Brees is the only one that really comes to mind. He was pretty bad his first couple years, so bad that the Chargers drafted Phillip Rivers. Of course right after that he took off and is now a HOF-er.

 

But in general your premise is correct. Guys who suck early tend to always suck. People point to Manning and all his picks but if you actually watched him, he looked the part of a franchise QB and it just took him a year to get in sync with NFL speed. He also threw for a ton of yards and TDs that year(for a rookie relative to the league in 1998).

 

 

[CTskin]

12 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

first off, I’ve been critical of Dwayne pretty much since he’s been here because he’s played so poorly. He wasn’t good in the Philly game. That win was courtesy of the defense. I was excited when they drafted him and even tried to look past the fact that Snyder overruled everyone else to pick him. 
 

Please point out who is disregarding the reality of his situation. The point is that he isn’t the only young QB in a bad spot. He was a 1st round QB. That comes with expectations. If he can’t be held to at least Herbert’s standard (and iirc, Herbert was not a popular prospect in the lead up to the draft and in fact, Haskins was held in higher regard the year before), then that alone tells you that picking Dwayne was a mistake. Herbert came from freaking Oregon. 
 

Last point: do you think we have to ignore all his negative statistics because his situation is bad? In that case, how are we supposed to evaluate his development as fans? All we get to see are the games. Ron Rivera came out and essentially said the excuses can only go but so far. 

I go back to my main point... this offense has below avg talent across the board other than mcclaurin. Outside of the very best qbs in the league, no one is going to look good here. Everyone’s throwing their arms up clamoring for a change, for what, Kyle Allen. Did you see him last year, his only decent games were when he dumped the ball off to cmc 10+ times. And thats exactly what I want, for turner to start incorporating that in this offense, something that I believe we all thought we’d see. Get Gibson and mckissic out there in the passing game. I keep saying it, we need creativity, this vanilla preseason offense is doing everyone a disservice. 
 

the analogy I’d use for the current situation would be if I had to run the books on a company, but I wasn’t able to use software, just a calculator and a notepad. I could do it, but it’s take a lot more time, I’d have to refer to text, it would be quite a bit more difficult and time consuming. That’s the hand Haskins has been dealt here. The question is, can he do it, who knows, but giving up now would be the wrong thing to do. Look at tannehill, Goff, josh Allen, they had terrible starts to their career and now they’re all statted out in the top 10... They either changed teams or had an offense evolve to fit their strengths, and I’m hoping we see that here.

[Thinking Skins]

19 minutes ago, TMK9973 said:

Has there been any QB in the last - say 15 years - That was bad their 1st 16 games and became great?

 

Josh Allen
Jared Goff
Drew Brees
Ryan Tannehill
Kirk Cousins
Matt Hasselbeck
Drew Brees
David Carr
Kyle Orton
Alex Smith

[TMK9973]

15 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said:

Trent Dilfer is your man

He was drafted 26 years ago! That is DEF outside the 15 year window

10 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Drew Brees is the only one that really comes to mind. He was pretty bad his first couple years, so bad that the Chargers drafted Phillip Rivers. Of course right after that he took off and is now a HOF-er.

 

But in general your premise is correct. Guys who suck early tend to always suck. People point to Manning and all his picks but if you actually watched him, he looked the part of a franchise QB and it just took him a year to get in sync with NFL speed. He also threw for a ton of yards and TDs that year(for a rookie relative to the league in 1998).

 

 

19 years ago.  He is one i didnt think of.  But still looking for last 10 - 15 years., 

[CTskin]

1 minute ago, TMK9973 said:

He was drafted 26 years ago! That is DEF outside the 15 year window

19 years ago.  He is one i didnt think of.  But still looking for last 10 - 15 years., 

Josh Allen, Ryan tannehill, Jared Goff are all prime examples

[TMK9973]

8 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Josh Allen
Jared Goff
Drew Brees
Ryan Tannehill
Kirk Cousins
Matt Hasselbeck
Drew Brees
David Carr
Kyle Orton
Alex Smith

 

Some of those are more then 15 years ago. 

Some are NOT great or even good (Kirk Cousin is Avg at best. I liked him but he has not gone to a super bowl, has not been a great QB).

David Carr is a good one.

Alex Smith i'll give you.

The rest were drafted more then 15 years ago or not QB i would consider great.  

 

 

[FootballZombie]

13 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

But in general your premise is correct. Guys who suck early tend to always suck.

 

No way is that true. QB Growth is all over the place in the NFL. Players have started out strong only to crash and burn while others were total bums who grew into successful QBs.

 

Every long tenured QB has seen significant growth in their play from when they begun. It is what makes them long tenured QBs. For recent examples, I think you are already seeing that with Josh Allen. With Tannihill/Goff as well. All three were absolutely terrible in their rookie campaigns.

 

Of the ones that do start out hot, many fall back down to earth, see Kyle Allen, RG3 for recent examples. Just because you start out hot, does not mean you stay there.

[TMK9973]

Just now, CTskin said:

Josh Allen, Ryan tannehill, Jared Goff are all prime examples

Those are pretty good examples. Thanks. And Yes @Thinking Skins i know they were in your list as well. But your list had many others that didnt mean the critiea. 

 

However -Even of those 3 only 1 has gone to a Super Bowl.  

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, TMK9973 said:

The rest were drafted more then 15 years ago are not QB is would consider great.  

 

 

This is the discussion I was having with SIP. Your great and my great may differ. I was looking at QBs that led teams to  at least the playoffs or were legit starters in this league. T15 years ago is based on your wording, you didn't say when drafted just questioned over a time period. I'll admit I did a search and looked over the last 20 years though. 

[TMK9973]

1 minute ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

This is the discussion I was having with SIP. Your great and my great may differ. I was looking at QBs that led teams to  at least the playoffs or were legit starters in this league. T15 years ago is based on your wording, you didn't say when drafted just questioned over a time period. I'll admit I did a search and looked over the last 20 years though. 

Fair enough. But i meant whose rookie year was 15 years ago or less.  The NFL, and College, has changed so much in that time.  

 

[DJHJR86]

4 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Josh Allen
Jared Goff
Drew Brees
Ryan Tannehill
Kirk Cousins
Matt Hasselbeck
Drew Brees
David Carr
Kyle Orton
Alex Smith

 

Josh Allen is a dual threat quarterback, so his shoddy passing stats were helped by his ability to run.  Jared Goff excelled in his second season with a different head coach.  Drew Brees became great after a change of scenery, same with Tannehill.  Cousins first start and his other starts in 2014 showed flashes of someone who could be a potential top 15 quarterback.  Hasselbeck, Smith, Carr, and Orton were never "great".

 

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Josh Allen
Jared Goff
Drew Brees
Ryan Tannehill
Kirk Cousins
Matt Hasselbeck
Drew Brees
David Carr
Kyle Orton
Alex Smith

Josh Allen - not comparable. Reads/throwing started off poorly, but had support from everyone as he’s a charismatic, likable guy and could run.

 

Jared Goff - Took off as soon as his coaching was adequate. 
 

Drew Brees - change of scenery.

 

Ryan Tannehill - not as bad as many thought. Poor surrounding talent, but had moments. Turned it around with a change of scenery. 
 

Kirk Cousins - wouldn’t say he was bad. And I’m not entirely sure he’s great (he’s not)

 

Matt Hasselbeck - he was a backup behind Favre.

 

Drew Brees - you don’t get to list him twice

 

David Carr - Uh.

 

Kyle Orton - Uh.

 

Alex Smith - change of scenery.

[DJHJR86]

By the way, the current most apt comparison to Haskins would be Mitchell Trubisky.  Both had only experienced one year as a starter in college, and both were touted by many as the second best quarterback in their respective drafts.  They also had new head coaches after their rookie seasons.  

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

Jared Goff - Took off as soon as his coaching was adequate. 

 

I want to point out something on this note. Goff took off with SMV as head coach. And Cousins took off with SMV as offensive coordinator. Lets remember though that 2014 was SMV's first year as an offensive coordinator and it was also a year when we saw a regression from Cousins. People (many on this board) were saying he was nothing special and not a starting QB. And part of that was probably SMV growing as an OC and learning Kirk's style (as well as other QBs) and his own offensive philosophy. 

 

Why do I bring that up? because we have a similar situation with Scott Turner and Haskins. Turner isn't some QB Whisperer (maybe Zamp is though), and he's probably learning on the job. I really wonder how much contact he's having with his dad and if Haskins is talking to Norv. So for all we know Cousins took off when coaching was adequate and Haskins may also take off as soon as coaching is adequate. 

[skinbuck]

It sounds like all of this growth talk might not matter. Rivera woke up Monday, saw the division standings, had flashbacks to Carolina 2014, and the Haskins hot-seat all of a sudden got sizzling hot. Margin for error is minimal now. He could still come through it, but the odds are now stacked considerably worse for him IMO.

 

One potential acenario: He gets benched 1-3 games from now, Dallas goes on a mid-season tear like they’ve done the past 2-3 years, defense and the rest of the team craps the bed and he gets a second chance in the last 4 games..

[CTskin]

7 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

By the way, the current most apt comparison to Haskins would be Mitchell Trubisky.  Both had only experienced one year as a starter in college, and both were touted by many as the second best quarterback in their respective drafts.  They also had new head coaches after their rookie seasons.  

Absolutely. Mitch was a project and got 2+ seasons and Haskins deserves that as well. 
 

I can’t wait to see this board next week after we get torched by the ravens... who after last nights game need to make an example out of their next opponent. Lucky us.