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FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State


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20 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

I would say Haskins needs more time more than Allen due to:

 

3 different head  coaches, including one who allegedly didn’t want him on the team

 

3 different offensive coordinators

 

3 different offensive schemes

 

Several games with nothing but rookie WRs—a rookie QB playing with 3 rookie WRS hadn’t happened in something like 40 years

 

No viable TE

 

 

Highly dysfunctional coaching staff

 

Even more dysfunctional front office

 

Franchise with a ton of off-field controversy and distractions

 

Zero continuity

 

Then on top of that:

No OTAs this year

 

No preseason games this year

 

Truncated training camp

 

Kyle Allen didn't have to experience even half of that.

None of that is why his mechanics are bad or why he stares down WRs. But it does play a role in how well and how quickly he starts to overcome flaws in his game.

It was widely said before the draft that whoever takes Haskins would be wise to let him sit for a year due to his lack of experience because he needed a lot of work and needed to be developed, but his potential ceiling was so high it would be worth taking a chance on him. Just as long as you were willing to develop him correctly because he wouldn’t be ready to start right away. You take a QB like that, and throw him into a chaotic, controversy-ridden, distraction-plagued dumpster fire--in the middle of a pandemic where he had to learn a new system over freaking ZOOM meetings lol—and yeah, I'd say he needs a bit more time.

 

 

 

 

In a fair world, you’re right but the NFL isn’t fair at all. Especially to QBs. 

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1 minute ago, KDawg said:


For the record, I wasn’t on board with Kirk. So that point is irrelevant here.

 

Also, I didn’t say the second part. 
 

In fact, I’m on record saying the opposite. I’ve also not once said I want to see Allen.

 

Let me make it simpler: Why do we know what Allen can do, but we don’t know what Haskins is capable of?

 

I’d argue Allen is much more of a mystery at this point to us. Which is where I am. If anything we know who Haskins is. Not Allen.

 

Again, to be clear: I don’t think either is the guy. I don’t even know if Allen is better. Not my point. 

You’re very much passive aggressively arguing for Allen otherwise I have no idea what you’re getting at. 

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Just now, Califan007 said:

 

Are you getting me mixed up with someone else? lol..you're arguing stances I never took or posted.

 

My only comment about Allen was in giving a possible explanation as to why "he needs more time" is being attached to Haskins more than to Allen.


No? I’m answering the questions you ask. I think it’s pretty clear neither of us is following the other :ols:

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Just now, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

In a fair world, you’re right but the NFL isn’t fair at all. Especially to QBs. 

 

Teams don't have to be fair, just smart. Granted, that's not exactly been our forte' over the years (as a team or as  fan base lol)...

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Just now, PartyPosse said:

You’re very much passive aggressively arguing for Allen otherwise I have no idea what you’re getting at. 


If anything, I’m arguing against the idea that Haskins is going to turn anything around. 
 

I don’t think either is the guy and I’m not particularly interested in watching Allen at the helm.

 

Ive also, repeatedly, said Haskins should get the full slate of starts to prove whether he is or isn’t without a doubt. 
 

My argument is simple: If we don’t know what Haskins is, we don’t know what Allen is. Yet people believe we have the book completed  on Allen and Haskins is still being written.

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5 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

You’re very much passive aggressively arguing for Allen otherwise I have no idea what you’re getting at. 

He saying he’s fine with riding with Haskins but it doesn’t make sense that you’re convinced you know the book on Allen even though he’s as inexperienced as Dwayne is. The rational way to look at it is that they’re both unknown and either one can turn out better. Haskins was the one that was actually drafted here so he gets the benefit of the doubt. But that benefit isn’t necessarily grounded in who’s actually better. It’s who was drafted where. And honestly if we’re strictly judging pro performance, you’d concede that Allen has looked the part more than Dwayne. But again, Haskins was the one that was a first round pick so he has more clout. 

Edited by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93
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47 minutes ago, The Rook said:

 

Huge fan of the show, however ... 🤔

     What if, Bruce Lee had gotten the role?  He did auditioned for it.  🤩 

      But not sure middle America would have accepted him.

 

Maybe it was better he became a cult figure instead of an ABC "star".  IDK

 

 

 

:229:The Rook

 

 

 

 

I think Bruce Lee would have been absolutely fantastic in the action scenes and adequate in the actual dramatic role. Whereas David Carradine was adequate in the action scenes (thanks to clever use of slow motion) and very good in the dramatic role.

 

Bruce would have been both more expensive and, as you mentioned, more of a risk demographically for ABC. They took the safer route leaving future generations to go on speculating about what might have been...

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7 minutes ago, TrancesWithWolves said:

 

 

I think Bruce Lee would have been absolutely fantastic in the action scenes and adequate in the actual dramatic role. Whereas David Carradine was adequate in the action scenes (thanks to clever use of slow motion) and very good in the dramatic role.

 

Bruce would have been both more expensive and, as you mentioned, more of a risk demographically for ABC. They took the safer route leaving future generations to go on speculating about what might have been...

 

 

I think I wandered into the wrong thread again lol....

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:

Ron doesn’t seem like the type of guy who’s going to stand being last in something like we are in many passing categories. And the X factor here is Ron didn’t draft Haskins... he owes him nothing and can pull the plug on him anytime he wants. 

 

This is the same fan/media logic that had Kyle Allen starting the season and Cam Newton signing here 64 seconds after being released.

Edited by Califan007
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48 minutes ago, KDawg said:


If anything, I’m arguing against the idea that Haskins is going to turn anything around. 
 

I don’t think either is the guy and I’m not particularly interested in watching Allen at the helm.

 

Ive also, repeatedly, said Haskins should get the full slate of starts to prove whether he is or isn’t without a doubt. 
 

My argument is simple: If we don’t know what Haskins is, we don’t know what Allen is. Yet people believe we have the book completed  on Allen and Haskins is still being written.


You know what Haskins is. You have known since he came off the bench against the Giants last year. You have hoped he’s something more but he’s not. It’s more than obvious now.
 

At this point roll out Alex Smith. The way that dude worked his way back he deserves it 100%. 

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1 minute ago, SoCalSkins said:


You know what Haskins is. You have known since he came off the bench against the Giants last year. You have hoped he’s something more but he’s not. It’s more than obvious now.
 

At this point roll out Alex Smith. The way that dude worked his way back he deserves it 100%. 


I don’t really know who you’re talking about with the “you thought he was something more” line :ols:

 

 

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1 minute ago, KDawg said:


I don’t really know who you’re talking about with the “you thought he was something more” line :ols:

 

 

“Hoped”not “thought”. We all hoped he was not that bad. But we were wrong to hope.

 

Let me tell you something my friend. Hope is a dangerous thing. Hope can drive a man insane.

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2 hours ago, KDawg said:


If anything, I’m arguing against the idea that Haskins is going to turn anything around. 
 

I don’t think either is the guy and I’m not particularly interested in watching Allen at the helm.

 

Ive also, repeatedly, said Haskins should get the full slate of starts to prove whether he is or isn’t without a doubt. 
 

My argument is simple: If we don’t know what Haskins is, we don’t know what Allen is. Yet people believe we have the book completed  on Allen and Haskins is still being written.

Ron might come to that conclusion faster than we think.  If he sees something being repeated, UN-correctable will cross his mind.  The man is decisive, so the kid better flip the switch. 

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What are the Skins intentions for 2020.

 

Considering how pathetic the NFC East this year, the division winner will probably have 8 wins at best. We are probably looking at the third time; a division winner only has 7 wins.

So, can the Skins contend for that pathetic title this year?   If So, then you want the QB who can get you there.  Dwayne is rapidly loosing his shot at that.  A couple of more losses and he's probably benched.  We will go with Allen or Smith and see if can turn things around and make a run at the pathetic NFC East.

 

Now, if our intentions for 2020 is to be an evaluating year; then you stick with Dwayne. If we aren't trying win this year; then we play Dwayne to see what we have.  Maybe he gets better over the season. Maybe he's already reached his ceiling.  Even if he gets benched for a game or two; he's given another chance.

 

 

It's up to Dwayne to seize the moment.  If he can't, he won't be her beyond 2020 and he could very well finish the season on the bench.  I think if he ends up getting benched; it's probably it for him.  

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5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The first category is completions/air yards combination in other words successfully relying on air yards versus YAC.  the 2nd category is attempts-air yards.  He's not been hot at air yards.  And as for attempts -- its been pedestrian compared to the rest of the league.   He's not been much of a gunslinger.  But i do think he's pressing so I agree with that part of your point. 

 

 

Screen Shot 2020-09-28 at 8.45.21 PM.png

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Screen Shot 2020-09-28 at 8.47.39 PM.png

IIRC, last year he was near the top in air yards avg?  This year has been a crap show of course, to your point.  To be clear, I don’t think I mean aggressive in the gunslinger sense, but rather feeling like he has to make a play.  The sack he took to knock us out of FG range (vs the Cards I believe?), the triple coverage throw to Thomas, not sliding, bypassing some easier short throws for a tougher one further downfield - that’s the kind of stuff I mean.  
 

Perhaps aggressive is the wrong word...

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4 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Ron might come to that conclusion faster than we think.  If he sees something being repeated, UN-correctable will cross his mind.  The man is decisive, so the kid better flip the switch. 


Honestly, I’m okay with Haskins getting the year. I don’t think he’s the guy... I think we’ve seen a very similar player over the course of the last 10 games.

 

But, it’s been 10 games. Giving him an ample opportunity to get his footing and show improvement is not a bad idea. There is always the chance, with any player, that something clicks. 

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8 hours ago, KDawg said:

I’d argue Allen is much more of a mystery at this point to us. Which is where I am. If anything we know who Haskins is. Not Allen.

 

 

I disagree. both are mysteries. Allen wasn't drafted by us (was drafted by Ron and Turner though) and Haskins was. Haskins has a much higher ceiling, which is why he went to a bigger program and had a larger college resume, and was drafted higher. All of that means nothing in the NFL though but if we have to choose, we selected Haskins. But like I said in an earlier post, what do we do if Haskins gets hurt and Allen comes in and looks good. Heck if we just have to play Allen for 3-5 weeks because Haskins is out. We had to play Case last year when Haskins went down in week 16. 

 

There was a discussion on Kevin Sheehan's podcast (with Cooley) saying that once they bench Haskins, he's done here. I disagree with that. I think that if we reach a point where Haskins is not growing any more, they may turn to Allen and see what he provides. And if Allen gives us nothing we turn back to Haskins or turn to Smith or maybe to the practice squad guy.

 

Side point. I think that way too much is being played by the media on the statement by Rivera that eventually he's not a rookie any more. He had just been defending Haskins and then was asked about the 5000 plays remark and thats where he said that statement. The reporter tried to get him to be more definitive and he wouldn't, but he gave them that and the media is treating it like its a division in the locker room. Its media created drama. 

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9 hours ago, CTskin said:

Deandre Hopkins probably wouldn’t appreciate that last statement. I’d also say as a whole, every one of those teams has a much better wr Corp... part of our problem is that all we have is McClaurin and our opponents know this.

 

 

This is where I slightly disagree. We saw Sunday that this is not a team of nobodies. Its not all allpros, but Turner, Gibson, AGG, Wright, JMC, etc all looked pretty good. Was it against a bad defense? I don't know but I think that they are showing that at minimum they can play in this league. 

 

The problem is that they are all so young and just like we are judging Haskins we have to also judge these guys and when Thomas drops a catchable ball, that goes as an incompletion by Haskins but we say Thomas should have had that. Same as when Inman doesn't run his route past the sticks, or AGG cradles a ball but the turf knocks it out, or Wright doesn't drag his feet on the sideline, or TMac gets called for OPI, or Wes Martin gets called for holding.

 

Both of those last two happened right before Haskins interceptions. So do those interceptions happen if those negative plays didn't happen immediately before it? If, say, Haskins didn't feel like he had to put the team on his back? 

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12 hours ago, mojo said:

Agreed. We don't need great just run the offense and make the basic throws and we win yesterday.  Remember under Gibbs when Campbell ran the offense and the offense was so hit or miss without any flow or sustained drives, then Collins takes over, runs a simple gameplan and suddenly the running game opens up and we start putting up points.  I think Allen could do the same for us.

I think if our defense is playing well against the Ravens and Haskins plays like last week, he will be pulled before halftime.

 

Only problem I have with this is that it denies what happened both then and now. We are seeing Turner and Haskins learn each other just like last year with KOC and Haskins. He played well both second halves of the first two weeks with an up tempo gameplan. So we integrated that into the play this week. He led us on drives of length 75 yards (in the first quarter), 34 yards before an int on the next drive, 21 yards before the fumble at the half, 49 yards in the 3rd and 54 yards in the 3rd.

 

That wasn't a team that was having problems moving the ball. It was a team with momentum and moving the ball, but playing with a young QB and a young team that makes young mistakes. But when they came together they were looking like a well tuned engine. 

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4 hours ago, skinny21 said:

IIRC, last year he was near the top in air yards avg?  This year has been a crap show of course, to your point.  To be clear, I don’t think I mean aggressive in the gunslinger sense, but rather feeling like he has to make a play.  The sack he took to knock us out of FG range (vs the Cards I believe?), the triple coverage throw to Thomas, not sliding, bypassing some easier short throws for a tougher one further downfield - that’s the kind of stuff I mean.  
 

Perhaps aggressive is the wrong word...

 

Just looked it up.  He was one of the least aggressive as to intended air yards in 2019, close to the bottom of the league, 30th,  meaning he didn't throw the ball down down the field much compared to the rest of the league but when he did so, he was the 12th best as for completes.

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9 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

And Ron has said as much.  This is a learning and developmental year. 

 

(This next statement won't surprise anybody who knows my posting history.  It's very on brand, if you will.) I blame Gruden a lot for essentially ignoring Haskins and setting him back by basically an entire off-season last year.  (I blame Bruce/Dan for putting Jay in that position too.  It's not one stop shopping for suckitutude).  Regardless, Haskins first was ignored, then put in before he was ready, and Keim believes and has stated on the record Jay put Haskins in the game against New York because he thought he was getting fired after that game and he wanted to show everybody how far Haskins was from being ready.  Keim is not one to throw things like that around lightly, and he's also not one to really stir the pot like that unless he really believes it.  And I'm not entirely sure even _I_ believe it, but at the very least, I think you can safely say Haskins was not ready for the Giants game and there was no good outcome for him in that situation.  

 

So Haskins was ignored, not really developed, then put into a position to fail. Then when Callahan took over, he actually said in his intro presser, Haskins might not be ready at all that year. I'm guessing that's based on what Callahan had seen of Haskins to that point.  Well, he got himself somewhat ready towards the end of the year, and had a pretty good 6 quarters towards the end of the year. 

 

Then Ron gets hired.  Ron, because he wasn't born yesterday on the back of a turnip truck, probably saw some things he liked in Haskins and also knew without a question he hadn't been well prepared for the situation he was in.  So he said he wanted to see what he could do with better coaching.  And he brought in 2 guys to work with Haskins who have successfully worked with a number of young QBs.  

 

Then COVID hit and shut down the off-season program.

 

And now here we are.  Haskins might not have regressed, but he certainly hasn't progressed.  Ron wants to be 100% sure Haskins isn't the guy.  He's going to give him every opportunity to develop, learn and grow.  Because QBs don't develop by sitting on the bench holding a clipboard.  They develop by playing.

 

But at some point, Ron is going to come to a decision:  Yes, Haskins got it and is the guy for the next 4-5 years minimum, or no, it's time to go shopping.  

 

My guess is that time is at least the bye week.  If, at the midway point, we're still seeing the same stuff, then I wouldn't be shocked after the bye for them to give up on Haskins and see if Kyle Allen is the guy. 

 

I'm very much in doubt at this point. I'll tell you what, to me, is the most troubling: He has back mechanics.  You know who else had a golden arm and bad mechanics? Jeff George.  You know what George never fixed?  His mechanics.  And he never really materialized into anything resembling a good QB except for 1 year in Minnesota when he just threw bombs to a very young Randy Moss.  If you don't get your mechanics squared away, you don't step up in the pocket, you don't do the little things with your feet, nothing else matters.  You'll be late, inaccurate and inconsistent.  

 

So, unless Haskins can really start to put it together from a mechanics perspective, and do it quickly, I think he's going to be in real trouble.  But we'll see.  And we'll see for the next 5 weeks at least.

 

I will say, it's somewhat unfair to the rest of the team.  If pre-injury (I have no idea about post injury) Alex Smith was the QB of this team, they would be at worst 2-1, and possibly 3-0.  If the defense got any help from the offense, it really could be spectacular.  And there is enough talent on offense, barely, but enough, that a good QB could make something of it.  Not the greatest show on turf.  But enough to be respectable.  

 

I'm kind of getting tired of Gruden being blamed. Perhaps Haskins was "ignored" because the coach saw that he could not play, he was on the hot seat and knew he needed to win right then and there.  Everything in professional sports is earned. That includes the QB position.  

8 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

You’re very much passive aggressively arguing for Allen otherwise I have no idea what you’re getting at. 

 

It should be obvious. One QB is young and we need time to see him develop before we pass judgement. The other QB has about the same amount of experience yet posters have already made a determination of that player based on a similar small sample size.   

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Gruden really shouldn’t be blamed for Haskins. Ownership drafted a project QB in the first round for a coach who was on borrowed time. If ownership had replaced Gruden prior to that, Haskins may have had a better chance to be supported from day one. But a coach that has to win now to survive isn’t going to set that aside to let the raw rookie get some serious TLC.
 

But that’s the way the team was being run. 

Edited by KDawg
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31 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Both of those last two happened right before Haskins interceptions. So do those interceptions happen if those negative plays didn't happen immediately before it? If, say, Haskins didn't feel like he had to put the team on his back? 

 

Every Qb has negative plays by their supporting cast.  That's why outfits like PFF have stats like adjusted completion percent and Haskins' numbers are awful on that front.  If I recall he is their lowest graded player on offense -- not the receivers.   

 

I am ok wth the lets stay patient with him narrative but IMO its not easy to sugarcoat his performances thus far.

 

Here's next generations stat's attempt to gauge it through their completion above expection stat, Haskins is dead last in the league.  

 

 

Screen Shot 2020-09-29 at 7.07.22 AM.png

Screen Shot 2020-09-29 at 7.07.39 AM.png

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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  • TK changed the title to FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State
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