FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Every Qb has negative plays by their supporting cast.  That's why outfits like PFF have stats like adjusted completion percent and Haskins' numbers are awful on that front.  If I recall he is their lowest graded player on offense -- not the receivers.   

 

What does that give me though? 

 

Haskins was looking good that game, even with the pics. We were moving the ball and he was throwing it around to different receivers. He actually made Inman look like a legit number 2 - at least for a while. 

 

I don't care about these metrics because they don't tell the whole story. They paint the picture that you or PFF wants to see. I am not big on Cooley's ratings but on my drive home I heard his take and he was saying how much he liked this game for Haskins because he took chances, ints and all. It wasn't the same safe stuff he did with Cal last year or in the first two weeks. Maybe they don't trust him to go deep yet. Maybe that part of the offense hasn't been installed yet. We know he can throw it deep because we saw it last year. I would love to see that part of his game develop but right now I'm happy to see him able to put the ball in playmakers hands and seeing us move the ball.  

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I'm kind of getting tired of Gruden being blamed. Perhaps Haskins was "ignored" because the coach saw that he could not play, he was on the hot seat and knew he needed to win right then and there.  Everything in professional sports is earned. That includes the QB position.  

 

It should be obvious. One QB is young and we need time to see him develop before we pass judgement. The other QB has about the same amount of experience yet posters have already made a determination of that player based on a similar small sample size.   

 

Agree. I add Jay isn't the QB coach.  He's running the team.   Some criticized Jay for running the offense along with being a headcoach -- too much on one's plate.  So people also expect him to be Haskins' defacto QB coach too?

 

Then I'd add Haskins looked every bit as raw in practice as some thought he might be.  At least that's my take from the practices I watched.  I recall Craig Hoffman even saying maybe Haskins is the type who plays better when the bright lights are on versus practice.  I saw in some of the practices I watched O'Connell huddle up with Haskins several times.  O'Connell and the assistant coaches were the ones who should have focused on Haskins and from what I saw they did.

 

According to Russell, Jay and Kyle Smith were close.  And if so and they were both on the same page about Haskins then I think that at least maybe in Jay's mind added to his doubts about Haskins.  Maybe not as a player overall but at a minimum that he'd not be ready to play in 2019.   Then you got all those stories that leaked about Dwayne supposdly not being a hard worker that off season and season. 

 

Jay is supposed to throw all of that out the window and for the good of the franchise long term put his doubts about Haskins aside, his livlihood as a head coach and other responsibilities to run a team to groom Haskins personally?  To me that's absurd.

 

I do believe the reports that Jay liked Haskins personally.  Haskins is a likable dude.  And maybe Jay intended to work closely with Haskins in the 2020 off season when I would guess he thought he would be more likely to be ready. 

[DJHJR86]

I have no problem with RIvera and company doing essentially what the Bengals did last season...they knew that Dalton was gone after that year so they gave Ryan Finley a look.  He sucked too, so they drafted Burrow.  That's the "benefit" to playing Kyle Allen this season.  Because once Haskins is benched, he's done here, IMO.

[Skinsinparadise]

22 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

They paint the picture that you or PFF wants to see. 

That's ridiculous. I don't want to see Haskins fail.  I don't think anyone here does. 

 

I could just as easily say you are seeing what you want to see.  If you think Haskins shined last Sunday.  Then sorry it doesn't seem like Rivera agrees with you and nope I don't think its because he's seeing what he wants to see.

 

We've done these dance for years.  I recall your posts about other rookies including undrafted guys in particular and you fall hard for a lot of them.  And I like the enthusiasm.   I have my pet players who I fall for, too. 

 

But yeah if you think Haskins has played well for the first three games, I don't blame you for being frustrated with this thread.  But others can hit you just as easily with the you are seeing what you want to see narrative. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree. I add Jay isn't the QB coach.  He's running the team.   Some criticized Jay for running the offense along with being a headcoach -- too much on one's plate.  So people also expect him to be Haskins' defacto QB coach too?

 

Then I'd add Haskins looked every bit as raw in practice as some thought he might be.  At least that's my take from the practices I watched.  I recall Craig Hoffman even saying maybe Haskins is the type who plays better when the bright lights are on versus practice.  I saw in some of the practices I watched O'Connell huddle up with Haskins several times.  O'Connell and the assistant coaches were the ones who should have focused on Haskins and from what I saw they did.

 

According to Russell, Jay and Kyle Smith were close.  And if so and they were both on the same page about Haskins then I think that at least maybe in Jay's mind added to his doubts about Haskins.  Maybe not as a player overall but at a minimum that he'd not be ready to play in 2019.   Then you got all those stories that leaked about Dwayne supposdly not being a hard worker that off season and season. 

 

Jay is supposed to throw all of that out the window and for the good of the franchise long term put his doubts about Haskins aside, his livlihood as a head coach and other responsibilities to run a team to groom Haskins personally?  To me that's absurd.

 

I do believe the reports that Jay liked Haskins personally.  Haskins is a likable dude.  And maybe Jay intended to work closely with Haskins in the 2020 off season when I would guess he thought he would be more likely to be ready. 

 

You said it better than I did. The narrative that Haskins was ignored and not being worked with is utter nonsense. They had assistants working with him, I have zero doubt about that. What they saw is what we are all seeing, this is just not difficult.  

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

You said it better than I did. The narrative that Haskins was ignored and not being worked with is utter nonsense. They had assistants working with him, I have zero doubt about that. What they saw is what we are all seeing, this is just not difficult.  

 

If he wasn't playing well in practice and he supposedly wasn't putting in the extra time they wanted to see as to helping his own development -- and then you add to the pile that they didn't want to draft him in the first place and at least some of the scouts in the building didn't see him as a first rounder talent -- that's a lot for a HC to ignore and put aside in a win now season where you think you got seasoned QBs ready to roll.

 

Keim tweeted yesterday (assuming someone told him this) that if the WFT didn't take Haskins at 15 there was a good chance he would have fallen to the 2nd round.  

 

I know some here think that's absurd.  But heck Drew Lock was also a projected top 10 pick from plenty of NFLmock draft geeks yet he fell to the 2nd round.

 

My point is if Jay wasn't infatuated with his talent and didn't think he could win right away why should he put extra time into Haskins?  I gather he thought maybe in 2020 he'd be ready and if so then maybe give extra time to him them.  But Haskins could develop with or without Jay's guidance.  

 

For Kirk for example I would assume McVay was a big part of gooming him.  It came out when McVay left that Kirk told him he owes his career to him.  Jay was the head coach there and there was so much time he could give to any one player, he was not the defacto QB coach. 

 

At Jax, now he could play more of that role of grooming a QB. 

[DJHJR86]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Haskins is a likable dude.  

 

Maybe it's because I don't follow a lot of the social media stuff or go to meet and greets/training camps, but everything that I've seen about him is the complete opposite.  

[Thinking Skins]

Some other interesting Haskins stuff that Turner may want to take note of: 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HaskDw00/splits/2020/

 

Of Haskins 3 Ints this year

 - All have come out of shotgun, normal rush, non-play action

 - two came on third down

 - two came with at least 10 yards to go

 

His rating (good)

 - He has his highest rating in the red zone (9/12 76 yards 3 TDs, 5 first downs)

 - He also does well on 3rd and 4-6 (3/5 35 yards, 1 TD, 2 first downs)

 - When he's blitzed he is 14/21 for 226 yards and 13 first downs. 

 - In the third quarter he is 17/26 for 171 yards, 1 TD and 10 first downs. 

 - When he has less than 2.5 seconds he is 46/72 for 512 yards and 3 TDs and 26 first downs

 - In RPO, he is 11/17 for 116 and 7 first downs

 - When blitzed he has 10.8 Y/A and 10.76 AY/A

 

His rating (bad)

 - When he has more than 2.5 seconds he is 11/29 for 113 yards, 1 TD and 7 first downs and 2 ints. 

 - Normal rush he is 43/80 for 399 yards with 4 tds and 3 ints and 20 first downs. 

 

Sacks

 - He has 7 sacks with normal rush vs 3 sacks when blitzed

 - He has 7 sacks when more than 2.5 seconds vs 3 sacks with less than 2.5 seconds. 

 

 

[Llevron]

So bench him and try to save the season and help change the culture? Or let him conduct the Taylor Lawrence train and hope we re bad enough to lose to the giants twice? 

[Darrell Green Fan]

5 minutes ago, Llevron said:

So bench him and try to save the season and help change the culture? Or let him conduct the Taylor Lawrence train and hope we re bad enough to lose to the giants twice? 

I usually go to "let's lose and get a high pick" sometime in November. I may change that schedule very soon.  We won't get to the top pick but a top 5 pick could really help.  

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Maybe it's because I don't follow a lot of the social media stuff or go to meet and greets/training camps, but everything that I've seen about him is the complete opposite.  

 

He doesn't take well to critcism or so it seems and has a defiant side on social media.  But just about every beat guy has said Haskins is super nice and likable and teammates like him.  I've had a few small exchanges with him myself and he seemed super duper nice.

 

I like Haskins as a dude.  As a QB, I just don't know.  I leaned positive before the season because of all the reports of how he's turned the tide and really worked hard at his craft after being defined the opposite way last year.   I lean negative now.

 

I got no problem with the stay patient give him time narrative.  My debate is has he shown enough flashes that we can comfortably say this dude is a franchise QB -- my take is not even close.  Could it happen?  Sure.  Would I bet on it?  Nope.  Do i hope it happens?  Of course.  It would be much easier to build this team if we had a QB.    We can go to town on the O line and be really good in 2021-2020.  

 

But if this season goes south and he plays the way he's played thus far and we got a top pick or an oppportunity to sign a top QB FA, I am pulling the trigger. 

[Thinking Skins]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

That's ridiculous. I don't want to see Haskins fail.  I don't think anyone here does. 

 

Its not about what we want. But its about the analysis of it. I do like Haskins but I like the team and had RG3 worked out, or Cousins worked out or Smith, I'd be analyzing them. 

 

The thing is what is analysis? I don't like PFF because blatently I don't trust them. I don't know how they define a good play vs a bad play. It's the same problem I have with Cooley. I like Bullock because he will at least give me video evidence when he criticizes a player, but he doesn't generally say I'm going to sum up all this player's plays into one number. Heck, that Moreau pick was the most important play of the Eagles game and turned the game around because of the momentum it gave us. 

 

Last week (agasint Cleveland), the 2 TDs by Haskins to Inman and the run to Gibson that put us up 20-17 were momentum building plays and they showed a lot of things that we can get behind. The holding call against Wes Martin, the OPI against TMac, the drop by AGG, the out of bounds by Wright, all those were drive killers, and momentum killers because they all put us behind the numbers in down and distance and thats somewhere that we had been avoiding particularly the second half. 

 

In the same way, that third int (or was it the fumble by Haskins) was a backbreaker, not only for the offense but I think for the defense. It was after these plays that Chubb got 25 yard runs, 20 yard runs, 9 yard runs, and our defense just started getting run over. 

 

But nobody's talking about this part of our defense. Nobody's talking about Collins inability to cover Bryant on that TD pass because this is all Haskins fault. We could have held them to FGs or gotten Ints and kept this as a game but is that too much to ask for this elite defense? 

 

We are a young team, but as fans always do, we're picking select players and groups to be our punching bags. It was Apke for 2 weeks and now its Haskins. But eventually we will start seeing that this DL is not living up to the hype. 8 sacks is great but that DL also gave the Eagles 14 points (had drives stopped and then had penalties on third downs that extended the drives). But that's not important because it doesn't fit the fan / media narrative. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, Llevron said:

So bench him and try to save the season and help change the culture? Or let him conduct the Taylor Lawrence train and hope we re bad enough to lose to the giants twice? 

 

The Giants games should be interesting.   Like I've been saying i don't get the angst about Haskins especially after Rivera's comments yesterday.

 

A.  For those who don't think Haskins has the goods.  Then you got to believe his play will bring his replacement with potentially a high pick.  and Rivera confirmed yesterday he's not going to ride Haskins forever if he struggles. 

 

B. for those who think Haskins has what it takes.  Then I am presuming he will get plenty of time to showcase that. Look, no one is stupid on this thread.  People get you got to grade Haskins on a curve.  But we are looking for flashes. 

 

Either is just likely to play out one way or another.  I think we are all rooting for B.   

[Darrell Green Fan]

Oh I am rooting for B for sure.  But I'm also not going to get fooled by a few good halves or games.  Fans always do that.  

[Skinsinparadise]

39 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Its not about what we want. But its about the analysis of it. I do like Haskins but I like the team and had RG3 worked out, or Cousins worked out or Smith, I'd be analyzing them.

 

 

 

Based on my memory, you seem to fall hard for many of our rookies and undrafred guys in particular and your refrain is to give them a chance.  I recall your posts about Bibbs for example and just the general belief of finding diamonds in thr rough from undrafted FAs. That's also a preconception.  It's just a positive one.  That's all.  It's tough to escape preconceptions and from what i recall you can be as stubborn clinging to yours as anyone else.   And that's cool.  But it doesn't elevate your perspective as more objective.  It's just a different perspective and different preconception.

 

Cooley I noticed (and I recall discussing this with you) tends to be celebrated when he has a homer position about players and is ripped when he doesn't.  I've done it myself.  i hated his downgrades of Doctson pretty early on after we drafted him.  I also hated him slamming RG3's play in 2014.  When he agrees with me on players, which happens often, i like his takes much more.  Seriously, I've learned to respect him over the years because as for my disagreements with him, he's been mostly proven right.   And he used to diagram plays, if I recall Hoffman used to post them on twitter. 

 

Our analysis, is based on our observations.  And if you are good at it, you don't let preconceptions drive future analysis. If you read the draft thread in 2019, I slammed Daniel Jones to no end.  Then I watched Daniel Jones last season and thought i was too harsh on him and said so here.  I've slammed Geron Christian and even got into a debate with a dude here about it.  But apparently, he's picked up his game.  And yesterday I told the dude i debated with, Christian is doing better.  What i implied by that is I may end up wrong about him and I hope i end up wrong.

 

I try to hit my takes about players on the draft thread before we end up taking those players.  So I do have preconcpetions about many of them based on watching some of their college tape.  But I am just having fun, that's all.  I've gotten some ones very right about players that weren't so obvious.  And I've gotten some really wrong like Doctson among others.  It's fun for me to at least try to assess players.  But if I were married to my assessment no matter what happened afterward then I'd be somewhat of a moron.  You can't predict every player and heck some play better than expected, some play worse.  But I keep an open mind or at least consciously try to do so.  And my #1 thing isn't about getting my early takes about players right but what floats my boat is this team winning.

 

Circling back to your point about why are people scapegoating Haskins when others had bad games.  I am not scapegoating Haskins.  My interest in the context of Haskins is he developing into a good player.  That means much more to me than wins and loses.  The reason why i am not slamming Landon Collins is because I think he's a good player.  If I felt like you did that Haskins had a good game aside from a few bad plays then yeah I'd praise him for it. 

 

But I have been unimpressed with Haskins thus far this season.  And i am perfectly find to give him time to let it unfold.  Like i said I slammed Geron Christian before the season and after game 1.  My preconception about him is that he was a bad player.  But if the sample size grows and he keeps improving.  I'll say it.  And love it.  I can give a rats behind that I didn't think much of Christian and lets say he ends up a good LT.  I'd love to have a LT who is good.  i am not auditioning for a GM job to say the least.  😀. And even the professionals like Parcells would say get it wrong 50% of the time. 

 

So when I listen to a guy like Cooley or even people I respect on the draft thread, some of whom agree and some disagree with me about Haskins on this very thread, I give them all a break.  Because everyone gets some wrong.  Cooley, too.  And to that point, I honestly don't see how anyone can be that definitive about Haskins right now one way or another.  I think the people that know best about Haskins right now are the ones in that building.

[TheShredder]

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Look, no one is stupid on this thread. 

With my age, it depends on what time of the day it is...

[volsmet]

25 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

Oh I am rooting for B for sure.  But I'm also not going to get fooled by a few good halves or games.  Fans always do that.  

[Thinking Skins]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

If I felt like you did that Haskins had a good game aside from a few bad plays then yeah I'd praise him for it. 

I don't think he had a good game. I think he had a bad game. I just think he made some plays in this game as well. I don't think he is "the sole" reason we lost the game. The fact that we had 5 turnovers and still had a 4th quarter lead means something about him (and the team) being able to overcome mistakes. 

 

But (and I know this is the Haskins thread) my problem with this stuff is that its all or nothing right now. Either he's a franchise QB or a bust, those types of "extremes". That's what I don't like and it goes along with how I treat a lot of players. Rivera said that the currency for players if game tape and I hadn't heard that but its kinda what I believe. And If a guy like Bibbs or Love or Gibson is looking good in practice (or has in games) and the guy ahead of him looks bad, then lets play them. But what goes along with a youth movement is that young make mistakes. We all remember the Fab Five and Chris Webber's calling a TO that he didn't have and the mysery that caused. We've got to live with those kinds of things sometimes, and sometimes they come from a star WR like Deshaun Jackson spiking the ball on  the 1 yard line before crossing the goal line, sometimes its a young DE celebrating a sack while the ball is still on the ground, sometimes its a WR not dragging his feet on the sideline or running his route short, and yes sometimes its a QB learning to throw with less velocity on the ball or set his feet. 

[volsmet]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

What does that give me though? 

 

Haskins was looking good that game, even with the pics. We were moving the ball and he was throwing it around to different receivers. He actually made Inman look like a legit number 2 - at least for a while. 

 

I don't care about these metrics because they don't tell the whole story. They paint the picture that you or PFF wants to see. I am not big on Cooley's ratings but on my drive home I heard his take and he was saying how much he liked this game for Haskins because he took chances, ints and all. It wasn't the same safe stuff he did with Cal last year or in the first two weeks. Maybe they don't trust him to go deep yet. Maybe that part of the offense hasn't been installed yet. We know he can throw it deep because we saw it last year. I would love to see that part of his game develop but right now I'm happy to see him able to put the ball in playmakers hands and seeing us move the ball.  

I side with Cooley once again. I liked this one (game) quite a bit, but he & I both understand & anticipate the struggles that appear to be rattling the natives. It’s difficult to be moved by struggles that are inevitable. 

[Gurgeh]

I hold off posting after each game because every QB has good and bad games. Well, after 3 games he's been a disappointment; it doesn't look like he's improved after all. The only problem with this assessment is of course the whole offense has taken a step backwards. We can say Haskins isn't a great QB who can elevate a bad team into contenders. He might become a decent QB if given time to develop behind a decent line with better targets, but he's not going to get any of those this season.

 

Would the team win more games with Allen as QB? I have my doubts. He might be a better QB than Haskins although he didn't look it from what I read of practice reports. I don't think he's so much better that he elevates the team in a way Haskins doesn't appear to be able to. A healthy Alex Smith would give us more chance but I'd hate to see him operating behind this offensive line.

 

My guess is after another bad game we get to see Allen, but things don't get any better. 

[Koolblue13]

Her played one full season is college and this is his first full season as a pro. I'm glad Rivera and Turner are more patient than this fan base. He's got no TE, an inconsistent Oline and 1 WR worth a **** and a brand new offense. It's a long season and it's not even over the first Quarter. 

[FootballZombie]

 

I really don't see us being in any way bad enough to pick up Lawrence or Fields in the draft. Not with Darnold and Jones running around. I hope those two like NY.

 

Since the easy replacement options will likely be unobtainable, Haskins pretty much only has to tread water to have a decent shot at being the QB next year. He does not have to all of sudden start posting monster games, just has to not be a thorn in his own team’s side like he was last week. As long as he does that, he will be relatively safe throughout the season. FA is an option to bring in competition, but the allure of the rookie contract is a hard thing to shake.

 

A lot of young QBs looked really bad last week. A few looked even worse than Haskins. It is the likely outcome when you have a truncated offseason. To expect a coach who is on a literal cold seat to cut bait so soon in downright silly. Rivera is going to ride this thing until A.) Haskins improves or B.) The wheels fall off and neither has happened yet.

 

I’mma just do what Zombies do best and take this slow and watch the show. I didn’t expect this team to be good and at 1-2, we are pretty much on pace to where I thought we would be.

 

[KDawg]

Despite my significant reservations on him, I agree that patience is needed and that he played his best game from the standpoint that he now has film to review and learn from that can really help his development. It wasn’t his best actual play, but it was a big game from a development perspective.

 

On to Baltimore.

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I don't think he had a good game. I think he had a bad game. I just think he made some plays in this game as well. I don't think he is "the sole" reason we lost the game. The fact that we had 5 turnovers and still had a 4th quarter lead means something about him (and the team) being able to overcome mistakes. 

 

 

Got it.  But this is a Haskins thread.  I don't think the angst is focused on the loss but specifically Haskins' play.

 

18 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

But (and I know this is the Haskins thread) my problem with this stuff is that its all or nothing right now. Either he's a franchise QB or a bust, those types of "extremes". That's what I don't like and it goes along with how I treat a lot of players. Rivera said that the currency for players if game tape and I hadn't heard that but its kinda what I believe. And If a guy like Bibbs or Love or Gibson is looking good in practice (or has in games) and the guy ahead of him looks bad, then lets play them. But what goes along with a youth movement is that young make mistakes. We all remember the Fab Five and Chris Webber's calling a TO that he didn't have and the mysery that caused. We've got to live with those kinds of things sometimes, and sometimes they come from a star WR like Deshaun Jackson spiking the ball on  the 1 yard line before crossing the goal line, sometimes its a young DE celebrating a sack while the ball is still on the ground, sometimes its a WR not dragging his feet on the sideline or running his route short, and yes sometimes its a QB learning to throw with less velocity on the ball or set his feet. 

 

I get your point.  Its not easy to find franchise QBs.  And I think you got different perspectives in play so people aren't going to see it all the same way.

 

For me personally, I want a top 12 QB.  I don't care if Haskins ends up like the 18th best Qb in the league.   I am listening to Sheehan right now who has claimed that he's a Haskins guy yet he doesn't seem to even believe that he ever ends up a top 10 Qb but thinks his ceiling is around middle of the pack.   For me that's yawn. But for him, it moves him.  Neither one of us is right or wrong but just coming at it from a different perspective.

 

Some here think accuracy isn't easily fixed.  Some disagree.  Some think his accuracy is on the verge of being fixed.   On and On. 

 

Different perspectives.  I've explained mine.  i am not as intrigued by his upside as some are albeit I do think he has good upside.  I don't think he has greatness in him but I do think he has the potential to be good.   I think he has a talented arm and a quick release.  I don't think his arm is as special as some others do here.  i have some serious doubts about his accuracy going forward.   I am hardcore about giving him a chance this season to showcase his stuff and improve.  But for me his talent is not that tantalizing where I'd stick it out for season 3 if season 2 doesn't markedily improve.   

 

The Josh Allen example that some use is a perfect example to explain my take -- I do think Allen's arm talent and athleticism is special.  You mention Cooley, ironically he loved J. Allen.  And not everyone loved Allen.  He also loved Murray and to a lesser extent Lock. Back to me, I don't see special potential in Haskins.  And nothing would make me happier as to being a WFT fan than being wrong about that.

 

 And i am not hardcore at all about he won't be able to improve -- I really have no idea and i am more than willing to find out this season.  But my issue is I'd rather not extend it to next year if this season is mostly the same stuff we've seen thus far.

 

[skinbuck]

If only we had a QB, say last year, who looked awful in his first few starts only to show the resilience and mental toughness that allowed him to make a big jump by year-end, even with piss-poor talent around him!🧐

 

until then, I’m trending slightly negative on Haskins!!😆