!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, MartinC said:

On John Kiems latest pod he was adamant that the Redskins were not offered a first round pick. Sounds like a 2nd and change was the best that was on offer.

 

I've heard him say that multiple times.  But it doesn't contradict Albert Breer's report which is the Browns kept calling but Bruce wasn't listening and an offer never even happened as a consequence.  Tough to get what you want if you aren't even negotiating.    

[Hoover-ball]

6 minutes ago, MartinC said:

On John Kiems latest pod he was adamant that the Redskins were not offered a first round pick. Sounds like a 2nd and change was the best that was on offer.

No matter the evidence people like rumors that make Bruce look foolish. He did that enough without fake news.

[MartinC]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've heard him say that multiple times.  But it doesn't contradict Albert Breer's report which is the Browns kept calling but Bruce wasn't listening and an offer never even happened as a consequence.  Tough to get what you want if you aren't even negotiating.    

Agreed. If the offer was a 2nd we may well have been able to negotiate a 1st.

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Agreed. If the offer was a 2nd we may well have been able to negotiate a 1st.

 

Exactly, you aren't giving your best offer right away.  And if the other side isn't negotiating, then you don't negotiate against yourself.   

 

Seemed like what happened was they weren't really taking bids until the 11th hour before the trading deadline and that point the best they got was a 2nd rounder which supposedly wasn't from the Browns but it was never disclosed which team.  As to the Browns, Bruce supposedly kicked in at the last minute and asked for the moon.

 

Keim now says asking around, the best he hears they can get for Trent is a 2nd and third.  He seems to think they likely should be able to get a 2nd but a first is unlikely.

 

https://www.indeonline.com/sports/20191016/without-naming-trent-williams-browns-gm-john-dorsey-says-hes-talked-to-washington-but-it-takes-two-to-tango/1

Without naming Trent Williams, Browns GM John Dorsey says he’s talked to Washington but ‘it takes two to tango’

 

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2860483-washingtons-refusal-to-trade-trent-williams-is-a-lose-lose-for-everyone

 

"But [Redskins president] Bruce Allen just refuses to trade him," a league source told Yahoo Sports' Charles Robinson less than a week before the deadline. "It's all Bruce. He won't do it."

Washington's stance seemed to soften once the front office was on the clock. Sort of. 

An apparent charade ensued hours before the deadline. NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reported Washington was open to trading Williams if the organization could land draft picks and a big-name player in return such as Pro Bowl Cleveland Browns cornerback Denzel Ward. 

By asking an exorbitant price, Allen surely knew that no other team was going to meet his demands, even those desperate to acquire offensive line help, like the Browns. That request is an unrealistic return for a 31-year-old blocker...

[HigSkin]

 

[Est.1974]

Finding someone to give him 20mil+ per year is the bigger issue here.

[ntotoro]

$20m a year? Yeah... **** him. He can sit on his couch cushions farting, getting high and eating Funyuns.

[The Consigliere]

1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

Anyone else recall when we offered the Bengals essentially two 1st round picks for Chad Johnson....and they refused to consider trading him, to anyone?

 

"At least a few teams have approached the Bengals about a trade - one even offered multiple first-day picks - but Cincinnati's approach has not wavered. The team is as adamant about not trading Johnson as the seven-year veteran is adamant about not returning to Cincinnati."

 

 

 

It's just a reminder of how stupid teams are. It might not be as contract oriented in the NBA, but it's still important to understand that other than a handful of positions (maybe LT, QB, and Edge), you're moving contracts around and almost everything is reasonably replaced, especially LB's, CB's, S's, RB's, WR's and even TE's, and interior lineman. Add to that the astonishingly high hit rate of OL's taken through the first about 130 picks, and it makes it a no brainer to be willing to make trades for picks because of how much cap/team building flexibility you get from players on rookie contracts. I do think there are contingent topics, we know from cluster injuries that it's important to have as much consistency year to year with your OL and probably to a lesser degree with your DL than other positions that feature multiple starters (CB, WR, LB etc), but that Chad Johnson case, and us earlier in the year are just the umpteenth example of teams not understanding what represents value and an edge, and what represents dinosaur thinking. Other than with RB, the league still seems mired in past it thinking, especially F.O.'s manned by old dinosaur coccoon hires like Dorsey, Brucifer and Gettleman that get jobs based on connections rather than talent. 

[Skin'emAlive]

John Keim literally brings almost nothing to the table in terms of inside information. He plays everything safe, and then after the news comes out, he will confirm everything that he could have said much much earlier. I mean, it’s a good tactical decision that will probably lend him a long career as a “redskins insider.” But I’d take what he says with a grain of salt. We knew that two 1sts were on the table for Trent and possibly Tunsil long before the Miami deal went through via insiders here on this board alone. I don’t have an answer for why we didn’t make the deal, but unofficially, there was an offer on the table that Bruce declined to consider. 

[The Consigliere]

25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've heard him say that multiple times.  But it doesn't contradict Albert Breer's report which is the Browns kept calling but Bruce wasn't listening and an offer never even happened as a consequence.  Tough to get what you want if you aren't even negotiating.    

 

I appreciate that he has the connections to know these things, and I tend to think he's right that probably the best we can do is a 2nd and a day 3 pick, or a 3rd and a future 2nd, but I also think that he's just hearing what F.O.'s are saying publically, what they're okay w/leaking. If Bruce negotiated, what might have happened? What if Bruce offered a '21 3rd for Trent and the '20 1st? Think the Browns might have changed their mind? Maybe. It's not as simple as just, Trent for a 1st. That's lunkheaded Fear based NFL F.O. stupidity. Have some flexibility in your thinking and approach, if you can't get a 1st straight up, see what you need to add. What about Norman (still carrying some value back then), Scherrf and Silverback for their '20 and '21 firsts (maybe we take back a crappy contract to make it work)? 

 

They would've rebuilt their OL, and gotten another corner to help the D, they think they're better than they are, maybe Dorsey knows he's on a short least, and if he can get two pro bowl OL's, Mayfield doesn't have the nightmare from hell season (probably does any way because he handed the coaching gig to someone possibly even worse than the colossal idiot in place when he first arrived). 

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, Hoover-ball said:

Doesn't change the fact that Trent could not play.

Trent would have played if he had been paid.  Period. 

[HTTRDynasty]

55 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:

Yea, he’s not an equal to Trent. It’s why Houston came to us with that deal first, before settling. He is decent - good. he’s not elite, but wants to be paid like it. 

So you go from he’s not “half as good” to good but not elite?  I mean... ok?  I guess we agree. 
 

Though I’d pay him more per year than I would Trent, given age and health. He was one of the best LTs in football last year with plenty of time to improve. 
 

But like I said, this trade would never happen. The Texans aren’t that dumb. 

[sempre_victrix]

Just now, Voice_of_Reason said:

Trent would have played if he had been paid.  Period. 

 

Still astounds me that anyone continues to believe that Trent held out due to his cancer surgery.

[PartyPosse]

9 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:

John Keim literally brings almost nothing to the table in terms of inside information. He plays everything safe, and then after the news comes out, he will confirm everything that he could have said much much earlier. I mean, it’s a good tactical decision that will probably lend him a long career as a “redskins insider.” But I’d take what he says with a grain of salt. We knew that two 1sts were on the table for Trent and possibly Tunsil long before the Miami deal went through via insiders here on this board alone. I don’t have an answer for why we didn’t make the deal, but unofficially, there was an offer on the table that Bruce declined to consider. 

I don’t understand this at all. You say he waits until something is confirmed before reporting and then say to take what he says with a grain of salt.

 

Ive also never seen a single confirmed report that two firsts were on the table for him.

 

Lastly, Houston probably came to us first because they’re in absolute win now mode and Trent is elite right now. Tunsil is very good with a trajectory towards elite, but he’s not there yet. The team couldn’t afford to wait for that to happen. 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

 

I appreciate that he has the connections to know these things, and I tend to think he's right that probably the best we can do is a 2nd and a day 3 pick, or a 3rd and a future 2nd,

 

Keim said multiple times he got that recently from polling personnel people he knows from other teams with no stakes in Trent.  He was told by different personnel people:  a 2nd and a 3rd, just a 2nd, just a third.   Keim has talked enough about the subject that to me he has given the strong vibe that it likely ends up at least a 2nd.  He flat out said if it were him he wouldn't deal Trent for a third. 

[The Consigliere]

6 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:

John Keim literally brings almost nothing to the table in terms of inside information. He plays everything safe, and then after the news comes out, he will confirm everything that he could have said much much earlier. I mean, it’s a good tactical decision that will probably lend him a long career as a “redskins insider.” But I’d take what he says with a grain of salt. We knew that two 1sts were on the table for Trent and possibly Tunsil long before the Miami deal went through via insiders here on this board alone. I don’t have an answer for why we didn’t make the deal, but unofficially, there was an offer on the table that Bruce declined to consider. 

 

Reminds me of Grant Wahl and virtually the rest of the US Soccer Media which is inexplicable in comparison. At least with the NFL, Keim needs contacts to hold a job. If he burns his contacts, he loses access and that carries risk which is why you just have to pick and choose who to listen to from national and local media based upon track record and the ability of people to hold a gig if they burn someone. Peter King can say whatever because he has the power too, or did anyway. Local guys run more risks. 

 

Wahl and US Soccer media has always infuriated those of us who obsess about soccer because they've been so thoroughly chicken ---- in their reporting, holding storys forever until another site leaks them or until the blowback is gone because the relevant players were fired (they held a story about a team cancer until five months after firings took place following the '17 qualification abominaton). 

[HTTRDynasty]

2 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I don’t understand this at all. You say he waits until something is confirmed before reporting and then say to take what he says with a grain of salt.

 

Ive also never seen a single confirmed report that two firsts were on the table for him.

Yeah, seems like wishful thinking more than anything else. People must think Trent is still 26. 

[The Consigliere]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Keim said multiple times he got that recently from polling personnel people he knows from other teams with no stakes in Trent.  He was told by different personnel people:  a 2nd and a 3rd, just a 2nd, just a third.   Keim has talked enough about the subject that to me he has given the strong vibe that it likely ends up at least a 2nd.  He flat out said if it were him he wouldn't deal Trent for a third. 

 

I wouldn't either, said as much last week, there isn't close to enough difference between a third this year, and a compensatory third in '22, who cares? If it's pick 77 in '20, or pick 90 in '22, you don't make the trade. The trade has to carry enough value to justify the loss of a last season of Trent Williams/potential deadline move in August/October (maybe a better panic market due to preseason or in season injuries) and that compensatory pick we'd get. Getting only a third in a deal flat out does not do that. 

 

Now if we can get a 2nd and a day 3 pick, it does, or a 3rd in '20 and a 2nd in '21 it would as well, but Trent for a '20 3rd? Straight pass. 

[Anselmheifer]

A 2nd and a 3rd would give us so much draft capital. 

I'm going on record as saying that I don't think anything will get done until after the vote on the CBA. That will affect how much money teams think they have to play with, as well as the Redskins' ability to make Trent play, since the new CBA looks like it makes it very difficult to hold out. The rumour was, not just stiffer fines, and non-negotiable fines, but that players that hold out for any substantive amount of time wouldn't acrue a year towards free agency. That would push leverage strongly in the direction of the Skins. What's Trent Williams going to do? Retire? I doubt it. 

[Hooper]

43 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:

We knew that two 1sts were on the table for Trent and possibly Tunsil long before the Miami deal went through via insiders here on this board alone. 

 

We do?

 

Also, I think Keim is just solid, old-school reporter. So many people just want to get clicks with "an insider said this or that" type story. He's just a pro.

[goskins10]

51 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

A 2nd and a 3rd would give us so much draft capital. 

I'm going on record as saying that I don't think anything will get done until after the vote on the CBA. That will affect how much money teams think they have to play with, as well as the Redskins' ability to make Trent play, since the new CBA looks like it makes it very difficult to hold out. The rumour was, not just stiffer fines, and non-negotiable fines, but that players that hold out for any substantive amount of time wouldn't acrue a year towards free agency. That would push leverage strongly in the direction of the Skins. What's Trent Williams going to do? Retire? I doubt it. 

 

While it's true the new proposed rules would make it harder, this has no impact on Trent for 2020. This next year is governed by the existing CBA regardless of if the players and owners agree on a new contract. That contract will not start until the 2021 season. 

 

If a deal can be had, it will be done either just before or right when free agency starts. Voting on the CBA will have little bearing. 

[HTTRDynasty]

5 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

While it's true the new proposed rules would make it harder, this has no impact on Trent for 2020. This next year is governed by the existing CBA regardless of if the players and owners agree on a new contract. That contract will not start until the 2021 season. 

 

If a deal can be had, it will be done either just before or right when free agency starts. Voting on the CBA will have little bearing. 

 

But then we could franchise tag him (non-exclusive tag, so lower cost) for the next two seasons (2021 & 2022), and he's basically forced to play unless he retires, right?  Only downside would be possibly ruining team chemistry.

[Skin'emAlive]

45 minutes ago, Hooper said:

 

We do?

 

Also, I think Keim is just solid, old-school reporter. So many people just want to get clicks with "an insider said this or that" type story. He's just a pro.

I’m not talking about clicks. I’m talking about inside information. Stuff that a team reporter would know. You can report on the facts without burning bridges and slandering former players/employees. I think he just softballs a lot of his information/reporting and often sits on a story so that in the event the player/team goes in the opposite direction, his rep is unscathed. Which is ok. It’s his job after all. But I’d like more from him.  

[Gibbit]

46 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

But then we could franchise tag him (non-exclusive tag, so lower cost) for the next two seasons (2021 & 2022), and he's basically forced to play unless he retires, right?  Only downside would be possibly ruining team chemistry.

Yes we can tag him in 21, but I don't think itll come to that. If we cant work out a trade, I imagine he will play well for us this year and walk giving us the comp pick

[Voice_of_Reason]

32 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've heard him say that multiple times.  But it doesn't contradict Albert Breer's report which is the Browns kept calling but Bruce wasn't listening and an offer never even happened as a consequence.  Tough to get what you want if you aren't even negotiating.    

Sheehan isn’t buying the reports at all, saying he thinks the Skins want you to think there wasn’t a market. Shrug.  I think he’s more right, but there’s no way to know. 
 

And yeah, if you don’t call people back you have no idea what the offers were.