!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

[mistertim]

3 hours ago, IrepDC said:

It's like fans are being forced to turn on one of our most dominant and consistent players. It's sad to read so many Skins fans bash Trent after he was one of the few bright spots on so many bad teams. I get it though. Reject him because he's rejecting "us." Emotion aside, Trent is calling out the same FO and structure that fans also complain about. We KNOW our FO is incompetent and I have seen fans questioning our training staff for years on this forum, because we are usually one of the most injured teams in the league. But somehow, now, Trent is only calling out the team for money? I don't buy that at all. He's human and money does usually help us to get over things, but I believe his complaints about incompetence in the FO and training staff are real. It's consistent with everything else we've seen since he's been here. I think the added variable of asking for guaranteed money is throwing people off though. We will still have an incompetent FO and one of the worst training staffs in the league after this saga is over, and ironically fans will go back to asking for them to be replaced, just like Williams is now.

 

It doesn't have to be either/or. The FO can be incompetent (they are) AND Trent could not be completely on the up-and-up about what happened. The FO is incompetent, as we've seen in the past and present. But Trent doesn't automatically get a free pass just because he's been a really good player for us. If the multiple reports of the team telling Trent to go see a specialist and him never doing anything about it until much later are true, then Trent has blame here as well. 

[goskins10]

14 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

It doesn't have to be either/or. The FO can be incompetent (they are) AND Trent could not be completely on the up-and-up about what happened. The FO is incompetent, as we've seen in the past and present. But Trent doesn't automatically get a free pass just because he's been a really good player for us. If the multiple reports of the team telling Trent to go see a specialist and him never doing anything about it until much later are true, then Trent has blame here as well. 

 

Blame is typically appropriate for both sides in most of these things. But the hate a vitriol headed towards Trent is gross. The name calling and hatred towards Trent has been disgusting. 

 

Not directed at you, just using this post as start off:

Fans seem to take it personal when a player does anything but make plays on the field. If they are not perfect humans then they are ridiculed and trashed beyond reason. On this thread the names Trent has been called are again, pure hate and ignorance. 

 

Until you have walked in the mans shoes you have no idea what he has gone through. Is he 100% innocent? No, of course not. But he is not some evil POS who has destroyed the team. That title has been very well earned by the FO - more specifically dan and bruce. 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 hours ago, Califan007 said:

But again, here is what I was responding to: the idea that trading Trent would have ended all the drama:

 

 

Agree it wouldn't have ended all the drama but IMO it would have made the drama less because there would be less variables in play, thereby it would be also less intense especially after the first bout of it, and it likely wouldn't have as many legs and would thereby be shortened.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

Blame is typically appropriate for both sides in most of these things. But the hate a vitriol headed towards Trent is gross. The name calling and hatred towards Trent has been disgusting. 

 

Not directed at you, just using this post as start off:

Fans seem to take it personal when a player does anything but make plays on the field. If they are not perfect humans then they are ridiculed and trashed beyond reason. On this thread the names Trent has been called are again, pure hate and ignorance. 

 

Until you have walked in the mans shoes you have no idea what he has gone through. Is he 100% innocent? No, of course not. But he is not some evil POS who has destroyed the team. That title has been very well earned by the FO - more specifically dan and bruce. 

 

I think a percentage of it is due to feeling let down and disappointed by Trent. Fans get hateful when a player simply doesn't play as well as expected. This goes beyond that.

 

Also, it's unfortunate but Trent's version of events (so far) hasn't really added up to a cohesive, understandable story to a lot of people. His holdout obviously hurt the team and fans will definitely hold that against players. But fans also tend to be forgiving when the reasons for the holdout are crystal clear and understandable, even if they dn't agree with them. Trent did a lousy job of trying to give fans clarity in that regard (which I'm guessing wasn't his goal anyway), raising more questions in the process while leaving others still unanswered. And the mixed messages Trent has been sending are hard to ignore, and start turning perspectives towards him as being disingenuousness at the very least. And fans hate fake. Add to the mix different bits and pieces of info that seem to contradict Trent's version of events--things that can't simply be written off as some sort of smear campaign by Bruce and Dan--and it leaves some fans feeling volatile.

 

Plus, there isn't much of an argument as to why Trent (or any player, actually) should be spared blame or criticism by fans, even the ones who go overboard in how they express it--which I agree can be head-shakingly negative at times. But "He's our best player" is hardly a logical argument for really anything in all of this outside of salary.

 

But finally, to something @mistertim touched on, this isn't an either/or situation...we really shouldn't be trying to take side in this, which I've seen way too many make that argument ("how can you take the front office's side over our best player?!"). There is more than enough criticism to go around. In the middle of a 1-8 season and a 2-14 stretch starting last season when Smith broke his leg, most fans would love to have something positive to latch onto. Trent's interview gave fans the exact opposite, so they're pissed off that he seemed to take a bad situation and made it worse. Some fans are pissed at Bruce for not seeing this possible outcome and trading him while he had the chance in order to avoid a ****storm and gain a draft pick or two in the process. Others blame Trent for dropping accusations he couldn't back up into the middle of all the losing and then backing away from them with the "just wants to move on with his career" statement from the NFLPA. Some blame both equally. But this was already a situation of building fan hostility with the team to begin with, and Trent tossed a can of gasoline onto the fire and then kinda walked away.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree it wouldn't have ended all the drama but IMO it would have made the drama less because there would be less variables in play, thereby it would be also less intense especially after the first bout of it, and it likely wouldn't have as many legs and would thereby be shortened.  

 

you know, I just realized I never said that I generally agree with you on this lol...but I do. In all my prior posts on this before Trent came back I always said as long as he eventually gets traded for good return or everything gets worked out and he keeps playing for the Skins, I'm fine with this soap opera nonsense we fans and media members insist on taking part in. I never imagined Trent holding the type of interview he did and saying the stuff he said...at least not immediately upon return. Figured something like that would be a sit-down interview in the offseason.

[SkinsFTW]

8 hours ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

Or TW is just a lying ****bag and it's all about the money and playing for a winning team after all........

 

With no intention of ever becoming a winning team, I totally get the 3 year old "My Toy" dementia.

 

We can still hope that the team might one day wake up to the fact that embracing the role of perennial NFL Grilled Turd Sandwich has its drawbacks and price. Which likely means that players with actual value to teams lacking the fecal stench will expect to exact a surcharge to be unwillingly stirred up into the mix.

 

I know, difficult to fathom for the Doofus Dan leaning crowd.

[sempre_victrix]

34 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

But finally, to something @mistertim touched on, this isn't an either/or situation...we really shouldn't be trying to take side in this, which I've seen way too many make that argument ("how can you take the front office's side over our best player?!"). There is more than enough criticism to go around. In the middle of a 1-8 season and a 2-14 stretch starting last season when Smith broke his leg, most fans would love to have something positive to latch onto. Trent's interview gave fans the exact opposite, so they're pissed off that he seemed to take a bad situation and made it worse. Some fans are pissed at Bruce for not seeing this possible outcome and trading him while he had the chance in order to avoid a ****storm and gain a draft pick or two in the process. Others blame Trent for dropping accusations he couldn't back up into the middle of all the losing and then backing away from them with the "just wants to move on with his career" statement from the NFLPA. Some blame both equally. But this was already a situation of building fan hostility with the team to begin with, and Trent tossed a can of gasoline onto the fire and then kinda walked away.

 

Exactly and well said.

 

I'm irritated with TW because he's a great player in a hard to fill position who wants out, or more money, or both.  But his story of how the Redskins almost killed him is entirely BS.   If INOVA truly screwed this up, then why say the team is to blame?  Why wouldn't he allow Bruce to fire some on the medical staff?  He takes absolutely no responsibility for this issue.  Basically, his story does not add up.  Plus, he is well paid and was very happy with the contract that he signed 3 years ago.

 

I'm irritated with the FO, for all of the usual reasons, but in this case, for not trading TW once they came to the conclusion that he was never playing here again.  Now, you hate to trade away any player just on their say-so.  That's why we have contracts.  But at some point, you have to concede defeat and get what you can.  Bruce absolutely screwed the pooch on this one.

 

[IrepDC]

5 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

It doesn't have to be either/or. The FO can be incompetent (they are) AND Trent could not be completely on the up-and-up about what happened. The FO is incompetent, as we've seen in the past and present. But Trent doesn't automatically get a free pass just because he's been a really good player for us. If the multiple reports of the team telling Trent to go see a specialist and him never doing anything about it until much later are true, then Trent has blame here as well. 

 

I agree with this. I recognize both sides. I think the difference is how I weigh the variables. I don't believe Trent completely made up the story or is lying. I think he may have used this as an opportunity to trash a training staff that has generally not been good. He probably has had plenty of smaller gripes with them, but he thought this would be something taken seriously by our FO. If people didn't pay attention, the original demand was for the Skins to fire the current medical staff even before money was mentioned. I remember hearing that this summer and thinking "That's an easy fix. Finally we might get a competent training staff because we always have SO MANY injuries." Then everything went left, money was mentioned, Trent became a villain, and a bunch of misinformation started being thrown out to make each side look worse. I can only imagine how players' opinion of this team is league wide after our treatment of Peterson and Williams this season. Every free agent will be asking for more money to come here, because we treat our players like trash. 

[MartinC]

9 hours ago, IrepDC said:

It's like fans are being forced to turn on one of our most dominant and consistent players. It's sad to read so many Skins fans bash Trent after he was one of the few bright spots on so many bad teams. I get it though. Reject him because he's rejecting "us." Emotion aside, Trent is calling out the same FO and structure that fans also complain about. We KNOW our FO is incompetent and I have seen fans questioning our training staff for years on this forum, because we are usually one of the most injured teams in the league. But somehow, now, Trent is only calling out the team for money? I don't buy that at all. He's human and money does usually help us to get over things, but I believe his complaints about incompetence in the FO and training staff are real. It's consistent with everything else we've seen since he's been here. I think the added variable of asking for guaranteed money is throwing people off though. We will still have an incompetent FO and one of the worst training staffs in the league after this saga is over, and ironically fans will go back to asking for them to be replaced, just like Williams is now.

 

This is not a zero sum game - its no either or.

 

I think pretty much everyone on ES would agree our front office and specifically Allen are not fit for purpose. I think the majority of us would agree we should have traded Williams assuming we git offers of reasonable value. But that does not mean Williams is blameless here or we should accept his story at face value.

16 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

I think he may have used this as an opportunity to trash a training staff that has generally not been good. 

 

The athletic training staff would have had zero involvement in a skin growth diagnosis. That would the contracted medical staff - private practice operating on a contract not team employees.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

28 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

 

I agree with this. I recognize both sides. I think the difference is how I weigh the variables. I don't believe Trent completely made up the story or is lying. I think he may have used this as an opportunity to trash a training staff that has generally not been good. He probably has had plenty of smaller gripes with them, but he thought this would be something taken seriously by our FO. If people didn't pay attention, the original demand was for the Skins to fire the current medical staff even before money was mentioned. I remember hearing that this summer and thinking "That's an easy fix. Finally we might get a competent training staff because we always have SO MANY injuries." Then everything went left, money was mentioned, Trent became a villain, and a bunch of misinformation started being thrown out to make each side look worse. 

 

Ding, ding, ding.  The issue(s) cannot be as black and white as some would like it to be.  What we're seeing now, for better or worse, on Trent's part - is the sum of the parts.

[veteranskinsfan]

Sheehan said on his morning show today that he is starting to think that Williams has not been totally honest about what happened.

He cannot understand why Williams does not want his medical records examined by an independent group.   He is siding with Casserly

statements that Williams was told to get a second opinion three years ago.  He said the Skins training staff won an award for best NFL

training staff last year.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

4 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

With no intention of ever becoming a winning team, I totally get the 3 year old "My Toy" dementia.

 

We can still hope that the team might one day wake up to the fact that embracing the role of perennial NFL Grilled Turd Sandwich has its drawbacks and price. Which likely means that players with actual value to teams lacking the fecal stench will expect to exact a surcharge to be unwillingly stirred up into the mix.

 

I know, difficult to fathom for the Doofus Dan leaning crowd.

 

I don't support Dan, by any means.  But I don't have any respect for any player that pulled the **** TW either.  If you want to be TW's groupie, by all means do so.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

27 minutes ago, veteranskinsfan said:

He cannot understand why Williams does not want his medical records examined by an independent group.

A guy without any guaranteed money on his contract, that wants to go to a new team, who has played hurt a lot over the years probably has several reasons that he'd rather not have his medical file opened.  To include how long this would drag on for what his camp has already determined to be a situation they can't win legally.

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, veteranskinsfan said:

Sheehan said on his morning show today that he is starting to think that Williams has not been totally honest about what happened.

He cannot understand why Williams does not want his medical records examined by an independent group.   He is siding with Casserly

statements that Williams was told to get a second opinion three years ago.  He said the Skins training staff won an award for best NFL

training staff last year.

 

What award is that?  I'm curious.

 

End of the day, if Trent got nothing to hide...

[FrFan]

1 hour ago, veteranskinsfan said:

 He said the Skins training staff won an award for best NFL training staff last year.

The Redskins have twice been the most injured team in football. Is that bad luck or bad planning?

Can you provide more info ? Is the medical staff included in the training staff ?

[veteranskinsfan]

9 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

What award is that?  I'm curious.

 

End of the day, if Trent got nothing to hide...

I found Feb. 2019 article about the award.

"For their steadfast commitment and distinguished service to their club, community, and athletic training profession, the Washington Redskins athletic training staff has been named the 2018 Ed Block Courage Award NFL Athletic Training Staff of the Year.

The annual award, named after the head athletic trainer for the Baltimore Colts, who demonstrated tireless contributions towards the healthcare of his team, along with his efforts as a humanitarian, recognizes an NFL staff for its similar work.

The honor, which the Redskins training staff last won in 1995, is voted on by members of the Professional Football Athletic Trainers Society and will be presented at the 41st Ed Block Courage Award Foundation Gala on March 23.

Leading the group is head athletic trainer Larry Hess, who just finished his 17th season with the Redskins and his eighth as the head athletic trainer. He previously spent four seasons as the Redskins Director of Rehabilitation (2006-09) after originally joining the club as Physical Therapist/Assistant Athletic Trainer (2002-05). 

Hess oversees the team’s athletic training and medical needs and works as a liaison to the coaching staff and front office. In 2018, Hess played a leading role in creating a state-of-the-art recovery center at Inova Sports Performance Center at Redskins Park, visiting other facilities across various sports and continents before implementing his vision for the nearly 2,000-square-foot center in the facility’s southwest corner. The innovative center features a cryotherapy chamber, photobiomodulation therapy bed and sensory deprivation float orbs in addition to a dedicated space for sports vision training."

Found the article on Redskins.com web site.

[Renegade7]

When your underwater and dont know which way is up, your supposed to follow the bubbles.  I have no idea with this franchise anymore.

[Mr. Sinister]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

When your underwater and dont know which way is up, your supposed to follow the bubbles.  I have no idea with this franchise anymore.

 

Probably better to just cut your losses and drown

[MartinC]

7 minutes ago, FrFan said:

Is the medical staff included in the training staff ?

 

I know you didn't ask me but the answer is no. And its important people understand this.

 

The training staff and strength and conditioning are Redskins employees and inhouse. As is typical the medical staff are private practice doctors who are contracted to work for the Redskins.

 

The inhouse training staff would have had zero involvement in a diagnosis for a skin growth.

[Renegade7]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Probably better to just cut your losses and drown

This seems more complicated then it needs to be, for sure.  The target isn't moving, its acting like quantum mechanics, and this is coming from someone who troubleshoots for a living.  I'm not suprised anyone jus takes off the scuba mask and let's nature take its course.  I cant do it, but if let this stress me it, it definetly will.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

At the end of the day, the franchise will be here, and the player won't. Thus, fans almost ALWAYS take the side of management. Trent being right or wrong doesn't matter. We're stuck with Snyder so, ultimately, people will defend the team. Or they just walk away.

 

What I think is happening is that as the fanbase dwindles, the fans remaining are more loyal to Snyder. Because they clearly aren't leaving over anything.

[FrFan]

As much as I read about this situation, I tend to believe that Trent's story contains contradictions. It wasn't about money, then he confessed it's also about guaranteed money. He complained that no team official visited him in the hospital in Chicago. An anonymous source from within the organization claimed that Snyder flew him and athletic director Hess to Chicago, and Hess stayed a week there to monitor Trent's condition. Lately he asked the union to not participate in the review of his health record. Why that ?

We could have saved ourselves another drama and negative attention by simply trading him to the Texans for draft picks.

Instead Redskins circus ring leader Bruce Allen decide to go on a Lose-Lose vendetta.

[@DCGoldPants]

2 hours ago, veteranskinsfan said:

Sheehan said on his morning show today that he is starting to think that Williams has not been totally honest about what happened.

He cannot understand why Williams does not want his medical records examined by an independent group.   He is siding with Casserly

statements that Williams was told to get a second opinion three years ago.  He said the Skins training staff won an award for best NFL

training staff last year.

 

Heard that also. I think Sheehan is right. I think there is something "fishy" with Trent's account. I also think how quickly the NFLPA came out with a non-denial denial AND didn't want to move forward speaks volumes. So, either Trent didn't want to cooperate with the NFLPA either, whatever he gave them didn't add up, or he admitted he was lying when talking to them. They'll never throw a player under the bus. But this was as close as they'll get while still appearing to support a player.

 

The Redskins practically were begging for an outside investigation. They probably have records of when something was first noticed, to the communications with the specialist that Trent probably never contacted.

 

It's a shame because a lot of fans would have liked seeing Bruce go down for this. 

[MartinC]

8 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

At the end of the day, the franchise will be here, and the player won't. Thus, fans almost ALWAYS take the side of management. Trent being right or wrong doesn't matter. We're stuck with Snyder so, ultimately, people will defend the team. Or they just walk away.

 

What I think is happening is that as the fanbase dwindles, the fans remaining are more loyal to Snyder. Because they clearly aren't leaving over anything.

 

You would not need a very big room to hold a 'Redskins fans loyal to Snyder' rally. Snyder is NOT this franchise - he just happens to currently own it.

 

Wishing with all my heart that Snyder would sell and take Allen with him does not however mean I assume that they are 100% to blame for every situation that comes along.

[carex]

12 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

At the end of the day, the franchise will be here, and the player won't. Thus, fans almost ALWAYS take the side of management. Trent being right or wrong doesn't matter. We're stuck with Snyder so, ultimately, people will defend the team. Or they just walk away.

 

What I think is happening is that as the fanbase dwindles, the fans remaining are more loyal to Snyder. Because they clearly aren't leaving over anything.

 

I do not view the redskins as Snyder anymore than I viewed them as Jack Kent Cooke