Mr. Sinister Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 9 minutes ago, Huly said: The biggest issue we have now besides still trying to get back 100% is the staph Pez had has a 50/50 chance of returning at anytime. Then we go to round 4 of surgery (remove hardware since bone is healed) and start over. Well I'm hoping for the best for both of you. I personally miss seeing you all around here like the old days, but life is life, obviously. Hopefully the worst is behind y'all. You both have always represented this fannbase with nothing but the best of what humanity is capable of, so I look forward to hearing the good news about his recovery. 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theTruthTeller Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 This is me just talking out of my ass, but I think this is how the insurance works: 1) If the Skins purchased an insurance policy which protected Smith's future salary against injury, and the cost of that insurance policy was reported as a benefit to Smith, then only the cost of the policy goes against the cap, not the payout. So, if an injury policy covering Smith to the end of his contract cost $10M (paid upfront) and Smith had $60M future salary at the time of his injury, the $10M would have been a cap hit in 2018 (or maybe a prorated bonus prorated over the life of his contract) and there would be no further cap hits after his last game paycheck against the Texans, because his salary became guaranteed by the insurance policy, not the contract. 2) If the Skins bought a policy for themselves (or didn't report the cost of the policy as a benefit), then the Skins are protected as far as cash flow goes, but the guaranteed money paid to Smith counts against the cap. The difference is whether or not the $10M cost of the policy was part of the compensation reported to the NFL. I don't know the answer to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonialWBSkinsFan Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 25 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said: This is me just talking out of my ass, but I think this is how the insurance works: The difference is whether or not the $10M cost of the policy was part of the compensation reported to the NFL. I don't know the answer to that. @theTruthTeller Good insight, thank you for the explanation. This is completely different and more detailed than any other explanation of the insurance that I've heard or read anywhere (and I've scoured quite a few sources looking for info)... Now, I hate to be "that guy", but what are the odds that this franchise did the right thing and reported the compensation to the NFL... let's just say my hopes are not high that this was done the right way, based on, oh I don't know, about a million other examples over the years of bad decisions made by this front office... Hope I'm wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 1 minute ago, ColonialWBSkinsFan said: @theTruthTeller Good insight, thank you for the explanation. This is completely different and more detailed than any other explanation of the insurance that I've heard or read anywhere (and I've scoured quite a few sources looking for info)... Now, I hate to be "that guy", but what are the odds that this franchise did the right thing and reported the compensation to the NFL... let's just say my hopes are not high that this was done the right way, based on, oh I don't know, about a million other examples over the years of bad decisions made by this front office... Hope I'm wrong... Considering Schaeffer is the contract guy, and from everything I've seen he's VERY good at it, it wouldn't surprise me if it's done correctly. The front office has a history of making poor contract decisions regarding money and tenure, but I want to say the contracts themselves are always written well, and Schaeffer is generally very good when it comes to making contracts work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonialWBSkinsFan Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 9 minutes ago, OVCChairman said: Considering Schaeffer is the contract guy, and from everything I've seen he's VERY good at it, it wouldn't surprise me if it's done correctly. The front office has a history of making poor contract decisions regarding money and tenure, but I want to say the contracts themselves are always written well, and Schaeffer is generally very good when it comes to making contracts work. Man I hope you're right.... this whole things sucks on so many levels (most of all for Alex, who, despite what you may think of the decision to sign him or the length of the guaranteed extension, seems like a completely excellent person and great teammate), but at least if the injury does end up being career-ending, it may not hamstring the franchise as bad financially... Fingers crossed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theTruthTeller Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, OVCChairman said: Considering Schaeffer is the contract guy, and from everything I've seen he's VERY good at it, it wouldn't surprise me if it's done correctly. The front office has a history of making poor contract decisions regarding money and tenure, but I want to say the contracts themselves are always written well, and Schaeffer is generally very good when it comes to making contracts work. Actually, I think it's a little more complicated as to what's a good decision. First of all, the $10M number is something I just made up. Insurance policies for career ending injuries used to be fairly common, at least for top athletes (not just football), and they were mostly through Lloyd's of London. When someone wants a personal policy like this, Lloyds puts together a syndicate of investors to fund the liability and they split the premium if the injury doesn't occur. So in this case, the syndicate would know that they were insuring a 34 year old quarterback with a line that had a somewhat shaky past itself - everything you would need to evaluate the risk. A while back, there were a spate of injuries for athletes with these types of policies and it became very hard to find investors and, thus, very expensive. So the cost could be pretty high - high enough that it wasn't prudent to take a cap hit on the premiums. If it was a $30M policy and Smith played through his contract injury free, that would go down as a bad decision. And Smith might not want it to be part of his contract - in essence, the Skins would be saying here's your $94M contract and you must agree to take $10M (or whatever) to buy the insurance policy. To be fair, I don't believe I've heard that the injury was completely covered. It could be, for example, just the 2020 season or have a $30M limit. There are an infinite number of possibilities regarding the cost of the policy, what it covers, and what would ameliorate the cap hit. But I'm pretty sure if it covered the cap hit for the entirety of his remaining cap hit, we would have heard it by now. The Skins usually don't keep quite on the good news. In any case, I hope he gets better soon, whether or not he can play again, regardless of the cap hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 4 minutes ago, ColonialWBSkinsFan said: Man I hope you're right.... this whole things sucks on so many levels (most of all for Alex, who, despite what you may think of the decision to sign him or the length of the guaranteed extension, seems like a completely excellent person and great teammate), but at least if the injury does end up being career-ending, it may not hamstring the franchise as bad financially... Fingers crossed.... yeah this quickly went to 'worst case scenario' for all parties involved. NOBODY is coming out of this thing a winner. The top concern at this point is Alex, I've heard the same thing you have that he's just a 100% stand up dude in ever aspect of life. As a father I hope he's able to retain the highest quality of life with his kids. I know I'd seriously give up pretty much anything if it was a major risk at me being able to give my daughter a bond with her daddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Anyone really think Allen gave Smith a contract that doesn't hurt us; if Alex can play due to injury? Allen ****ed us for the next couple of years. It Will probably be 2021 before we can be clear of Alex's contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said: Actually, I think it's a little more complicated as to what's a good decision. First of all, the $10M number is something I just made up. Insurance policies for career ending injuries used to be fairly common, at least for top athletes (not just football), and they were mostly through Lloyd's of London. In any case, I hope he gets better soon, whether or not he can play again, regardless of the cap hit. I'm hearing the number $12 mil... and i've now heard it from multiple different places via the media. Now I understand NONE of those people are, or directly represent, the team. $12 mil is a small fraction of his contract but makes sense because that would be more than 75% of any individual guaranteed chunk of money for an individual season. I honestly don't know how the insurance thing truly works, so i'm going to have to defer to you on that one, I've just heard glowing reviews about Schaeffers contracts and how he writes them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 The policy most likely just means the insurance company has to pay off a portion of the guaranteed money. There will be no cap relief. I can see Bruce trying to get cute, but the league has no respect for him and if anything he'll just end getting the team penalized again cuz ya know, Bruce. A rookie QB on a cheap rookie deal will prevent real cap problems, but Smith's cap hit will prevent the team from taking advantage of the cheap rookie deal and stacking the roster around a cheap rookie QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WelshSkinsFan Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Maybe it is just me but right now I don't care what insurance policy we may or may not have or what the terms of his contract are, I just hope this husband and father makes a full recovery and is able to lead a normal life once all this is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 1 minute ago, WelshSkinsFan said: Maybe it is just me but right now I don't care what insurance policy we may or may not have or what the terms of his contract are, I just hope this husband and father makes a full recovery and is able to lead a normal life once all this is over. We all do. Alex is a class-act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stadium-Armory Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 6 hours ago, TheGreek1973 said: First I hope Alex recovers fully and lives a healthy happy life. That by far is the most important thing. Now the NFL to me is totally screwed up. The owners need to put a clause in the next bargaining agreement where the guaranteed money is not part of the CAP. The player should get all the money but the team should not be penalized for something that can happen in this sport to anyone. It diminishes the sport and competition. At the very least they should have a fixed deduction a team can take, say maximum hit on CAP 25 million over 5 years. And yet, Bruce still made the deal. He placed a bet that hinged on a 34 year old player not getting hurt. He gambled, and he lost. Fair enough. But he should not retain his job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 23 minutes ago, WelshSkinsFan said: Maybe it is just me but right now I don't care what insurance policy we may or may not have or what the terms of his contract are, I just hope this husband and father makes a full recovery and is able to lead a normal life once all this is over. That's absolutely the priority... but this is a Redskins message board, so I don't think its unfair to have these conversations regarding the future of the team. It's been stated by everyone involved in conversation that Alex and his health is the most important part of this conversation. The team ramifications are secondary, but it's still something that can be discussed... nobody is saying they want Alex to not get better. Nobody is saying that they're hoping he cant come back... just having a conversation about what possibly could happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsailand Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 2 hours ago, OVCChairman said: . If Alex retires prior to the 5th day of the league year, does that remove the guaranteed contract for 2020 as he's technically no longer on the roster? If that's the case, why wouldn't he just wait until that gets activated, THEN retire. Pretty sure the money isn't guaranteed against retirement. If he retired before the 2019 season, he wouldn't get his 2019 and 2020 money, and we could go after him to get 4/5th of his signing bonus back. Even if he can never play another down, Smith gains nothing by announcing his retirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 His actual status sounds bad, but at least his financial status remains healthy. I still question why we extended him, before the season had already ended. It reeked of a panic rush job. At the same time, I feel like we did Reid a favor when common sense tells me, Reid needed to get rid of Smith as much as we needed him. I dunno, hindsight is 2020 but wonder if Dan thought he was getting the 1 year KC monster offense Alex Smith. That seems like what he paid for, when even a casual fan cough GM could easily question his outlier year, and face little blow back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, Tsailand said: Pretty sure the money isn't guaranteed against retirement. If he retired before the 2019 season, he wouldn't get his 2019 and 2020 money, and we could go after him to get 4/5th of his signing bonus back. Even if he can never play another down, Smith gains nothing by announcing his retirement. Yeah this is way over my head. I get what you're saying, and I THINK you're right, but I don't know the details so it's all guesswork at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 EVERYBODY: Go listen to Yesterday's Redskins Talk Pod with JP Finley. He had Joel Corey on, former agent and cap specialist. He goes through the whole situation as well as anybody I’ve heard. Honestly, I’d have to re-listen to it to summarize, and I do t have time. But for those interested, it’s a really good listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said: EVERYBODY: Go listen to Yesterday's Redskins Talk Pod with JP Finley. He had Joel Corey on, former agent and cap specialist. He goes through the whole situation as well as anybody I’ve heard. Honestly, I’d have to re-listen to it to summarize, and I do t have time. But for those interested, it’s a really good listen. thank you, i may just do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said: EVERYBODY: Go listen to Yesterday's Redskins Talk Pod with JP Finley. He had Joel Corey on, former agent and cap specialist. He goes through the whole situation as well as anybody I’ve heard. Honestly, I’d have to re-listen to it to summarize, and I do t have time. But for those interested, it’s a really good listen. Thank you! Would someone summarize if you listen? It seems like someone should eventually to be able to boil it down to: The insurance policy does/doesn't provide cap relief. I'm glad Alex can get his money and, quite honestly, don't really care if Snyder has to pay him or not. But I do care about the impact to the roster (of course all of this is secondary to the guy being healthy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 There is no such thing as cap insurance/relief in the NFL. If Corry says otherwise, I'd be really surprised and will happily admit that I'm wrong. But don't think I am. If the Skins did purchase some kind of insurance policy, it is more about the team not having to fork over the actual money if Smith had a career-ending injury. I believe the NBA does provide cap relief in case of career-ending injury. Could see a scenario where the NFL changes their rules to match this specifically because of how screwed the Skins will be because of Smith. But it won't be retroactive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 I watched NFL Live's coverage of it, talked about 5 procedures, sounds brutal. If I understood what they said he hadn't left the hospital since the injury. That's crazy -- hopefully they can get the infection under control and he can leave the hospital. Listening to Joel Corry, ex-agent, talk about the contract he said Alex will unlikely officially retire even if he doesn't plan to play because it wouldn't behoove him to give up any money -- the whole idea of getting guaranteed money for injury is for cases like this. Stinks from the Redskins cap situation, but in Alex's shoes he should do what's best for him and his family. Football is a brutal sport -- he put his health on the line and IMO he's earned whatever he can get from that perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Just now, Skinsinparadise said: I watched NFL Live's coverage of it, talked about 5 procedures, sounds brutal. If I understood what they said he hadn't left the hospital since the injury. That's crazy -- hopefully they can get the infection under control and he can leave the hospital. Listening to Joel Corry, ex-agent, talk about the contract he said Alex will unlikely officially retire even if doesn't plan to play because it wouldn't behoove him to give up any money -- the whole idea of getting guaranteed money for injury is for cases like this. Stinks from the Redskins cap situation, but in Alex's shoes he should do what's best for him and his family. Football is a brutal sport -- he put his health on the line and IMO he's earned whatever he can get from that perspective. I heard the same thing, and I absolutely agree with you... He's got every right to get whatever he can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Not only do the Skins lose their QB, they are going to be on the hook for 20 million a year cap-wise. Pretty sure nothing like this has happened before. I blame Danny just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dballer Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Basically on the hook for 31 million over the next two years, 15m in 2019, 16m in 2020. Only way out of that is if he retires, which would be a ridiculous decision for Smith. All he has to do is continue to try to rehab and be on the roster on St. Patrick's day. At that point, he fails his physical, and 2020 is guaranteed. 2021 - 24.4 million cap - 10.8 million dead money for signing bonus - Could save 13.6 by cutting him 2022 - Would be first year completely clear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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