Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, justice98 said:

 

I never got the DeFillipo thing.  Basically coaching Carson Wentz is what got him in the mix. I didnt get the sense that he built anything anywhere else.  

 

I agree with the personality leader type.  They need somebody who the guys will respect and follow and fight for.  You have to go all the way back to Gibbs 2.0 for that.  

 

 

[Hooper]

Gruden may have a lot of options.

 

HC or OC of Bengals, depending on what happens to Lewis. Mike Brown is not going to hire Hue Jackson over Jay. 

 

OC of the Raiders.

 

OC of the Vikings.

 

 

[OVCChairman]

Man to see Jay end up in Minn.....

[Peregrine]

19 hours ago, WelshSkinsFan said:

Right now I want Gregg Williams.  Cleveland are tying themselves in knots trying to come up with a reason not to hire him.  He has ties to the organization, is Gibbs approved and would personally beat the snot of every one of those bums on Defense after a showing like yesterday.  Of course we do need to find him a good OC.

I cannot get behind Williams at all.  Williams hasnt coached a good defense in 8 years.  The best hes managed since then, season after season was one year where his team was at least 9th in yards, but 23rd in points allowed and 23rd in takeaways.  His current defense is trash, and while Cleveland has been bad for some time, the solution is not a head coach that "revamped" the Browns defense from 31st to 28th.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

[Thinking Skins]

I think Minnesota is panicking. Firing the OC right now is not thing to do. Its not like they weren't producing. They had one guy who set a record for consecutive 100 yard receiving games. They brought in a new QB and he's still getting used to things. I don't like this move by Zimmer. 

[Est.1974]

4 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I think Minnesota is panicking. Firing the OC right now is not thing to do. Its not like they weren't producing. They had one guy who set a record for consecutive 100 yard receiving games. They brought in a new QB and he's still getting used to things. I don't like this move by Zimmer. 

 

I wish we would panic and fire somebody.

[Thinking Skins]

As much as I despise the Cowboys, i want to say look at what they did. (a) found a good defensive coordinator. (b) stuck with Garrett, who nobody but Jerrah thinks is a good coach (c) found a good QB in the middle rounds (d) drafted an all pro running back (e) go after athleticism on defense. I look at that and say that its a reason to be patient with Gruden. I think we were on the way to a 12 win season this year had we not played Byron Marshall (yeah I'm putting that injury on him). Maybe thats a bit much because we'd still have lost Cooper, Berg, Scherff, and Lich and be in this bad situation on the OL. But this team had the ability to hold teams to low scoring games and duke it out like Chicago did and like Seattle just did Minnesota. i think that would take Manusky not backing off like he's done but maybe a ball control offense could have helped our defense. 

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

I wish we would panic and fire somebody.

 

We say that now (and I do want Sanchez cut) but what I hated about Snyder initially was that he couldn't keep a coach for any time. we fired Marty, Spurrier left, Gibbs left, we fired Zorn, we fired Shanny. I wanted to keep coaches because thats when you see players develop into their full potential instead of just what they are coming out of college. I'm interested in seeing what they guys like Stroman and Johnson and Settle and SDH and Anderson can become next year after another year in the system. Look at what we've gotten out of other players. There's a benefit to stability. And the benefit of firing a coach needs to be weighed vs stuff like can that coach continue grow, especially if the players are developing under that coach like we're seeing under Gruden. 

 

I will say that I have a lot of questions about Gruden, like are his practices (and training camps and preseasons) too soft? Do players still listen to him? And how well does he adjust to things not going as he planned out initially. But I'm not a fan of just cleaning house. And this goes against what I posted in the other thread (about bruce) saying that we needed to do a real evaluation instead of just cherry-picking our next hire from the current staff. But this is another thing to be weighed vs the consistency we get from in house hiring. I like that we fired Barry, but was Manusky the best hire. We got to keep some of the players we were developing, but would we have benefited from bringing in another guy who was a mastermind instead of just a rah rah guy? I don't know. 

[WelshSkinsFan]

2 hours ago, BurgundyBooger said:

 

Not sure about that, to be honest. I think Gregg would have been HC in 2008 had Gibbs fully endorsed him before departing, which could explain the awkward and prolonged HC search in that offseason which ultimately led to the unexpected hire of Zorn. My hunch is that the 'Skins were set to promote Gregg but Gibbs wouldn't put his full support behind the decision.

 

I understood that Gibbs did give Williams his full backing and had always planned on passing the baton to him when he went back into retirement.  The story amongst the beat writers that has been oft repeated in threads here is that Dan invited Gregg to watch a game with him and because Gregg didn't kiss a$$ and buddy up to the boss he failed Dan's interview.  The idea that Dan would ignore all football reasons and his 3 time SB winning Head Coach and instead base his decision on whether he wanted to hang out with Gregg just sounds true to me, that is the essence of Snyder.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Man, what I wouldn’t give for a tape recording of the Dan/Gregg playoff party/interview.  

[Dancing Bear]

John DeFilippo, hire him now if you want to save your job Jay!!!!!

[goskins10]

4 minutes ago, Dancing Bear said:

John DeFilippo, hire him now if you want to save your job Jay!!!!!

 

 

You are kidding right? Have you seen that offense the Vikings have put on the field? There is a reason he was just fired. Why borrow another problem? Also, why would he come here with a few games left? No reason to do that. 

 

Just let things ride out the year. Then let them all go. 

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

Do players still listen to him?

 

You know, if appears to me like the veteran group has bailed out on him. Gruden looks gone, past the point of no return to me. Some fundamentals in question, practices, overall in game management, interaction with the press, I think the cracks have opened too far.

 

I can't see him having the desire to start building this thing up again. We need fresh blood.

[Skinsinparadise]

43 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Man, what I wouldn’t give for a tape recording of the Dan/Gregg playoff party/interview.  

 

If they do hire a new coach, we should start sorting through who could hit it off with Dan socially because that likely weighs in and thats not me being sarcastic.  Heck Keim was talking about this today in a different way saying Marty didn't know how to play the game with Dan personally and thats why it didn't work.  He said Jay knows how to play Bruce and his personality and if Bruce stays, you need Jay because he suggested you need to be a certain type to deal with Bruce.

 

Now I get every organization has relationships-personalities and its part of the game.  but it sounds like we are talking about some high maintenance personalities with Dan and Bruce and you need the right people who can operate in that world.   And that includes hitting it off with Dan socially. 

[Burgold]

I'd say when players on the brink of losing out on the playoffs resist their head coach asking for an additional practice, they have stopped listening and believing. Maybe we see one last hurrah of effort next week, but if there was a win one for the Gipper moment on offense, you would have thought that would have shown up last week.

 

I do think the defense rallied at the top of the game, but their spirit broke after Sanchez threw that interception and once the dam let go... the whole thing fell down.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

We say that now (and I do want Sanchez cut) but what I hated about Snyder initially was that he couldn't keep a coach for any time. we fired Marty, Spurrier left, Gibbs left, we fired Zorn, we fired Shanny. I wanted to keep coaches because thats when you see players develop into their full potential instead of just what they are coming out of college. I'm interested in seeing what they guys like Stroman and Johnson and Settle and SDH and Anderson can become next year after another year in the system. Look at what we've gotten out of other players. There's a benefit to stability. And the benefit of firing a coach needs to be weighed vs stuff like can that coach continue grow, especially if the players are developing under that coach like we're seeing under Gruden. 

 

I will say that I have a lot of questions about Gruden, like are his practices (and training camps and preseasons) too soft? Do players still listen to him? And how well does he adjust to things not going as he planned out initially. But I'm not a fan of just cleaning house. And this goes against what I posted in the other thread (about bruce) saying that we needed to do a real evaluation instead of just cherry-picking our next hire from the current staff. But this is another thing to be weighed vs the consistency we get from in house hiring. I like that we fired Barry, but was Manusky the best hire. We got to keep some of the players we were developing, but would we have benefited from bringing in another guy who was a mastermind instead of just a rah rah guy? I don't know. 

 

I agree with the gist of it, change for change sake is usually a losers game -- stability > change.    Changing a HC typically means everything goes that includes even the guys with big reps like Callahan, Tomsula, etc.   Schemes often change and their is often roster turnover to fit the new coach-scheme.    Is Jay a killer-great coach?  I don't  think so.  But I also don''t think he's a bum either.  Can we find worse diving back into that pool?  I think sure.  Will see.  The grass is greener approach hasn't been a winning formula for Dan.

 

 

for those interested in some coaching talk, here's JLC

 

The array of first-time head coaching candidates leaves much to be desired, and there isn't any 30-something offensive whiz like Sean McVay or Kyle Shanahan or Adam Gase or Mike McCoy years before that, whom multiple teams were going to battle for his services. That dude just is not out there at this point, and he isn't going to suddenly emerge over the final three weeks of the season, especially among the group of men who have never been NFL head coaches before. The Rams' Zac Taylor – who at least has called plays at the NFL level before and is seen as a potential star on McVay's staff – might be the closest thing to it, but the pack of candidates is much more muddled and difficult to sort out than most years.

So that leads me to believe that teams may have to be more creative and not just do what they normally would, and go try to hire the offensive coordinator doing the best job with a playoff team with a star, or emerging-star, quarterback. Yes, the Chiefs' Eric Bieniemy should merit strong consideration as the latest offensive assistant groomed by Andy Reid, but outside of that, good luck on that side of the ball when it comes to coordinators. There were many in the media who have been trying to champion John DeFilippo as the too head coaching candidate for years – despite him having been with seven teams to this point already without ever being seen as the guy there; and after Minnesota fired him Tuesday with its season in the balance, I'd dare say he is not going to be an NFL head coach in 2019.

You may hear some buzz about Matt LaFleur, given his ties to McVay, but I'd be surprised if his maiden voyage calling plays with the Titans makes him truly coveted, and as I continue to talk to general managers and coaches about this crop of candidates it becomes increasingly difficult to say, without question, that this coordinator or that coordinator is definitely getting a head coaching job.

Which makes me believe teams might, wisely, get a little more creative in terms of whom they consider. Dallas defensive backs coach Kris Richard is an assistant on Rod Marinelli's staff, and not running that defense himself, but I have to believe he gets some interviews. Dan Campbell is not the guy pulling the strings on the Saints offensive staff, as we know that is Sean Payton's show, but as New Orleans assistant head coach/tight ends, he has continued to earn respect and he has interim head coaching experience previously and I expect him to garner interest.

 

Dave Toub is a special teams coach, which has worked against him for years, and, frankly he should have interviewed for more jobs than he has the past few offseasons. Of all the guys remaining on Reid's staff – which is constantly picked through by other clubs – he is the one I would be most interested in hiring. I've made the case for him for years, and many GMs privately agree with me. But will one step up and be willing to hire him? I wrote a few weeks ago about teams doing their homework and due diligence on long-time NFL defensive guru Vic Fangio, and if his stellar work with the Bears this year doesn't get him legit head coaching opportunities now, it never will.

Mike Munchak could've had the Cardinals head job a year ago in all likelihood if he hadn't pulled out of contention, and he has significant head coaching experience with the Titans in the past. People tend to forget about him because he isn't calling plays in Pittsburgh and is, gasp, dare I say it, just an offensive line coach (wish I had a dollar for every time a Football Man has told me there is almost no track record of offensive line coaches becoming head coaches, as a means to discount an entire segment of coaching specialty).

If there is the feeding frenzy that we have seen in some other years, with more jobs than obvious candidates, then you end up with Jim Zorn and Jim Tomsula being NFL head coaches. The men I have mentioned here stand a far better chance of success than those regimes did for various reasons. And, along with former head coaches like Jim Caldwell, Chuck Pagano and Jack Del Rio, I expect them to have opportunities to explore NFL vacancies.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/there-are-no-hot-it-nfl-head-coach-candidates-in-the-assistant-ranks-especially-after-the-firing-of-john-defilippo/

 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

I just listened to Gruden on Redskins Talk Pod with JP Finley. 

 

Summary:  offense is tough because of the injuries.  Defense sucks because the offense sucks because of injuries.

 

False starts are because of ... wait for it.. injuries to the QB.

 

No changes expected.  We just have to do better.  But DONT FORGET RHW INJURIES!  

 

Such loser talk. 

[Morneblade]

38 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I just listened to Gruden on Redskins Talk Pod with JP Finley. 

 

Summary:  offense is tough because of the injuries.  Defense sucks because the offense sucks because of injuries.

 

False starts are because of ... wait for it.. injuries to the QB.

 

No changes expected.  We just have to do better.  But DONT FORGET RHW INJURIES!  

 

Such loser talk. 

 

This is why he needs to be fired. Jay can't adjust to anything. If his gameplan does not go perfectly, you're screwed. Anyone that isn't a completely idiot sees that if something is not working, you need to try something else. Smart people have a back up plan, and a back up to the back up.

 

But even if you're not real smart,  you do realize you need to try something different.

 

I really don't understand it. I'm no coach, at all. But I played enough to understand that most of the time, even if something is working at first, it's going to get adjusted to. So you already know what you want to move on to after something gets shut down a couple times. At least my teams did.............and we were well coached. You had adjustments for the expected adjustments. You ran certain plays to set up others. You looked at your own tendencies and planned ways to use them against your opponent.

 

I do not see any of this going on. Football is much like Predator/Prey evolution. Except Jay never evolves or changes.

 

And if you don't evolve, you die.

[Burgold]

The genius of Gibbs is he could adapt. He could take 48 scabs off the street and beat a Superbowl-contender like the Dallas Cowboys. Yeah, Gruden is playing a bad hand... again, but he ain't playing to his hand's strengths and his hand does have strengths. Every hand does, even if it's just the ability to bluff.

[joeken24]

Conspiracy alert!!!

 

At this point, Gruden is looking forward to being fired. He takes his HC money to a place where its not as much national media scouring the place.

I think Gruden wants to go back to Cincinnati. I've been listening to some hometown (Cincinnati) friends/fans. They're saying they'd rather have Gruden over Hue. We all know Lewis is getting old and probably burnt out. My thought is Zimmer (who may be on the hot seat after this season) Gruden and Hue bring the old band back to Cinci where Gruden takes the OC job with Zimmer taking over the HC gig. There's no way he's getting a HC job after 5 years of this ****. Its best to go back to whats familiar.

 

 

[Hooper]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

The genius of Gibbs is he could adapt. He could take 48 scabs off the street and beat a Superbowl-contender like the Dallas Cowboys. Yeah, Gruden is playing a bad hand... again, but he ain't playing to his hand's strengths and his hand does have strengths. Every hand does, even if it's just the ability to bluff.

To be fair, Gibbs 2.O was a bigger disaster than Gruden. Which says more about Snyder than either coach. But the only adjusting Gibbs made the second time around was handing the offensive reigns over to Al Saunders.

[Rufus T Firefly]

8 minutes ago, Hooper said:

To be fair, Gibbs 2.O was a bigger disaster than Gruden. 

[Burgold]

9 minutes ago, Hooper said:

To be fair, Gibbs 2.O was a bigger disaster than Gruden. Which says more about Snyder than either coach. But the only adjusting Gibbs made the second time around was handing the offensive reigns over to Al Saunders.

I disagree. Gibbs made it to the playoffs twice. Gruden only did it once. Gibbs won a playoff game. Gruden never did. Gibbs had Cerrato while Gruden had Allen. Gibbs had a ten win season. Gruden topped out at 9-7.

 

Gibbs, ten years removed from football, still outclassed Gruden by a far margin.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Gibbs 2.0 made us look like a competent football team.

 

Gruden 0.0 makes us look like an AA meeting where somebody spiked the punch bowl.