Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

[Cooleyfan1993]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

If I’m not mistaken, they had the ball one time after they scored the TD, ran three times and punted the ball back to Stafford.  I could be mis-remembering. But I really remember being furious that Gruden has a chance to close the game out without Stafford having an opportunity.  I’ll have to go back and see if I am wrong...

Looking at the play by play, redskins made the score 17-13 (redskins having the lead) from the TD run by our QB. 49 seconds later, lions scored to make it 20-17 (thanks to that awful joe Barry defense). We did have one final chance to score after the lions TD, you’re correct. but there was just 16 seconds left on the clock. 

 

1st play: pass incomplete deep middle to Davis 

2nd play(10 sec left) pass incomplete deep right to DJax

 

we took our 2nd timeout with 3 seconds left. then a pass short to the middle to Thompson, who lateraled to Davis for 2 yards. End of game. 

 

 

[carex]

13 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Actually, if Bruce is back; he's probably trade the pick for some washed up veteran.

 

we haven't done that under Bruce's tenure

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 minutes ago, carex said:

 

we haven't done that under Bruce's tenure

Donovan McNabb and Alex Smith to a lesser extent.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

8 hours ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Looking at the play by play, redskins made the score 17-13 (redskins having the lead) from the TD run by our QB. 49 seconds later, lions scored to make it 20-17 (thanks to that awful joe Barry defense). We did have one final chance to score after the lions TD, you’re correct. but there was just 16 seconds left on the clock. 

 

1st play: pass incomplete deep middle to Davis 

2nd play(10 sec left) pass incomplete deep right to DJax

 

we took our 2nd timeout with 3 seconds left. then a pass short to the middle to Thompson, who lateraled to Davis for 2 yards. End of game. 

 

 

 

That's correct. I remember the debate after that game being that we shouldn't have left so much time on the clock on offense and the horrible prevent defense that gifted Stafford 15-20 yard chunks down the field. 

 

 

[OVCChairman]

@TD_washingtonredskins I just watched the 'high'lights and man I can still feel it.  I was so excited when we scored but IMMEDIATELY said "there's too much time."  On the TD play we rushed 3 dropping Hood back into Zone coverage.  I was so freakin mad, we had Fuller man to man vs Boldin with no safety on that side, Blackmon was very late getting over.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

18 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

@TD_washingtonredskins I just watched the 'high'lights and man I can still feel it.  I was so excited when we scored but IMMEDIATELY said "there's too much time."  On the TD play we rushed 3 dropping Hood back into Zone coverage.  I was so freakin mad, we had Fuller man to man vs Boldin with no safety on that side, Blackmon was very late getting over.  

Ok so I mis-remembered the Detroit game.  Kudos to @Cooleyfan1993for exceptional memory.

 

so my fury over the game was not on offense, it was a passive defense allowing Stafford to walk down the field basically at Will.

[goskins10]

4 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Ok so I mis-remembered the Detroit game.  Kudos to @Cooleyfan1993for exceptional memory.

 

so my fury over the game was not on offense, it was a passive defense allowing Stafford to walk down the field basically at Will.

 

You just can't help yourself. It's all Jay's fault even if it's not right??  Totally kidding....   That was a frustrating game to watch. It was won. All the D had to do was slow them down and they did nothing. 

 

I think the building blocks are there for a decent D  - still missing talent for sure. It will be interesting to see if an entire new regime can get something out of them. I say this assuming all will be shown the door. If not, I may be right here with you every week lamenting another year of mediocrity at best. 

[Burgold]

26 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

You just can't help yourself. It's all Jay's fault even if it's not right?? 

See, I don't give Jay a pass for the defense sucking. It's his defense. He sets the tone for the whole team. He's the Head Coach. If he's tired of the hyper passive defenses, then all he has to do is go over and swat the d coordinator in the head... or he gets to fire him and get someone who can install the defense the way he wants it.

 

Jay isn't just the O coordinator. He's responsible for the success and failure of every part of this team. He's the guy who chose Haslett, Barry, Manusky (if he's not the guy he should have walked or made himself the guy.) The Redskins defense is as easy and affable as Jay. He kept Haslett for two years. He kept Barry for two years. He thought the league's worst defense merited a hire from within.

 

At first, this season, I thought Manusky was doing great and he was. Credit went to Jay. Then, once it was exposed, there was no ability to address, change up, or mask the deficiency and they went from one of the best defenses in the NFL to one of the worst. That fall from grace falls on Manusky, but it also falls on Gruden who hired him despite his so-so history as a DC in SF.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

The Cousins TD in Detroit was so uniquely unlucky. We ran read-option from about the 18 or 20 yard line. I don't think anyone expected that he'd score on that play. I don't want to give Gruden too much credit, but you could make the argument that the play-call was designed to bleed more clock. We were in field goal range down by only 3. 

 

As he got closer to the end zone, my pessimistic self glanced up at the clock and thought "oh crap." I even mentioned to my buddy that I wouldn't care if we missed the PAT so that Detroit only needed a FG (for some reason, I'm always more nervous when we're up by 4-6 points because the other team will be more aggressive and have 4 downs to try to move the ball). I would have preferred that game be 16-13 and have Detroit lining up for a 38 yard FG or something...hahaha

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

See, I don't give Jay a pass for the defense sucking. It's his defense. He sets the tone for the whole team. He's the Head Coach. If he's tired of the hyper passive defenses, then all he has to do is go over and swat the d coordinator in the head... or he gets to fire him and get someone who can install the defense the way he wants it.

 

Jay isn't just the O coordinator. He's responsible for the success and failure of every part of this team. He's the guy who chose Haslett, Barry, Manusky (if he's not the guy he should have walked or made himself the guy.) The Redskins defense is as easy and affable as Jay. He kept Haslett for two years. He kept Barry for two years. He thought the league's worst defense merited a hire from within.

 

At first, this season, I thought Manusky was doing great and he was. Credit went to Jay. Then, once it was exposed, there was no ability to address, change up, or mask the deficiency and they went from one of the best defenses in the NFL to one of the worst. That fall from grace falls on Manusky, but it also falls on Gruden who hired him despite his so-so history as a DC in SF.

 

Yea, everything is completely under his control. He has total say over everything to do with the Redskins. I think you know better than that even if you don;t want to admit it. 

 

The only thing we know for a fact is that the Redskins have purposely not created a traditional organization. So your assumption that Jay made the Joe Barry decision and other personnel decisions and that he can simply fire him if he is not doing his job, is just that, an assumption. 

 

So how can we as fans who are purposefully kept i nth dark as to how things work in this organization make any proclamations about who is responsible for what? Sure, he probably owns some of it, but not the majority. I am fairly certain that the Joe Barry decision vs Wade was much more a Bruce Allen call. Sure, Jay says the right things in public. He is a good soldier - and yes I agree that is part of why you move on. 

 

But knowing this organization is anything but conventional makes it unrealistic to grade him on a conventional organization. 

 

 

[Burgold]

2 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

Yea, everything is completely under his control. He has total say over everything to do with the Redskins.

 

Oh BS. Jay Gruden is the Head Coach. He takes the credit and the blame. From the beginning of organized sports that's the way it has been and it has often been unfair. Yes, we can give him asterisks for Bruce Allen, for injuries, for the NFL's nefarious scheduling ploys like giving us a week three bye or the timing of giving us team after team who play us after their break when we had a short week.

 

All of that is true. It doesn't matter. He's had five years to get it right. Bruce Allen has had nine years to get it right. Neither has. It isn't really all that close. Hell, the offense has for the entire season looked terrible, worse than a rookie head coach with an expansion squad. On defense, one defensive back's injury and one offensive adjustment made the defense go from first to worst.

 

I'm kind of done with excuses. Jay and Bruce have both failed. Hell, the team is barely even willing to practice for Jay. That's an incredible indictment of his leadership since his top quality is supposed to be he's a player's coach.

[goskins10]

21 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Oh BS. Jay Gruden is the Head Coach. He takes the credit and the blame. From the beginning of organized sports that's the way it has been and it has often been unfair. Yes, we can give him asterisks for Bruce Allen, for injuries, for the NFL's nefarious scheduling ploys like giving us a week three bye or the timing of giving us team after team who play us after their break when we had a short week.

 

All of that is true. It doesn't matter. He's had five years to get it right. Bruce Allen has had nine years to get it right. Neither has. It isn't really all that close. Hell, the offense has for the entire season looked terrible, worse than a rookie head coach with an expansion squad. On defense, one defensive back's injury and one offensive adjustment made the defense go from first to worst.

 

I'm kind of done with excuses. Jay and Bruce have both failed. Hell, the team is barely even willing to practice for Jay. That's an incredible indictment of his leadership since his top quality is supposed to be he's a player's coach.

 

In any normal organization you would know who to assign blame for pretty much every decision and I would agree with more of your position. But based on Dan's insistence on not creating a standard structure we have no idea what asst coaching decisions are his and not his. Or how much input he was even allowed to have. So you can claim "BS" all you want to but that does not change the absolute fact that we have no real idea how much of any of these decisions are actually Jays. He many have never wanted Joe Barry. He may have wanted him to start then wanted to fire him after one season. He may hate Manusky. We really do not know. This entire team reeks of bruce allen and his slimey way of doing things. 

 

Does that mean we should keep him? You never saw me say that. There are plenty of other reasons it's time to move on. And I have documented those here and in other threads. One of those I have not written yet is that i think it's pretty clear he has lost the locker-room. Until then, things can almost always be salvaged. But once you lose the locker-room it's time to part ways. No coming back from that one.

 

But blaming him for everything as if this is a traditional FO organization is in fact the thing that is BS. 

[Wildbunny]

24 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Oh BS. Jay Gruden is the Head Coach. He takes the credit and the blame. From the beginning of organized sports that's the way it has been and it has often been unfair. Yes, we can give him asterisks for Bruce Allen, for injuries, for the NFL's nefarious scheduling ploys like giving us a week three bye or the timing of giving us team after team who play us after their break when we had a short week.

 

All of that is true. It doesn't matter. He's had five years to get it right. Bruce Allen has had nine years to get it right. Neither has. It isn't really all that close. Hell, the offense has for the entire season looked terrible, worse than a rookie head coach with an expansion squad. On defense, one defensive back's injury and one offensive adjustment made the defense go from first to worst.

 

I'm kind of done with excuses. Jay and Bruce have both failed. Hell, the team is barely even willing to practice for Jay. That's an incredible indictment of his leadership since his top quality is supposed to be he's a player's coach.

 

Two years ago, before signing Manusky, Scott and Jay made a push for somebody's name just escapes me. Not sure it was Gus Bradley, but that was tied to Anthony Lynn and the Chargers. I remember @TK posting about it. So, at the very least, Manusky wasn't our first choice. The first guy we interviewed? Mike Pettine IIRC. Manusky was way, way behind in the list. At some point, considering you have a TP that have no fear to trade for a QB without telling his HC, you just cannot put him away in the DC discussions.

 

And I can easily envision Jay wanting Pettine and Bruce vetoing it because he's too expensive or doesn't like him for whatever reason.

 

There's enough articles since Jay camed here that everything have been done in concert of everyone, so you can bet Bruce had a say or two on the DC position. Just like Haslett, Jay's first year.

 

Not so long ago, I've read that some of those coaches are Bruce Allen's signing, like Tomsula or Callahan. Maybe that was on the Post. I might be wrong on Tomsula, but Callahan was specificly mentioned. Now Callahan is Assistant HC, a title we gave him so he doesn't leave 2 years ago. If Callahan's a Bruce hire, then you can wonder what Bruce did so Callahan ended up Jay's Assistant HC? Maybe he didn't like it.

 

From what I'm reading and watching lately, it really looks like Jay wants to get the hell out of here soon... Our D went south when we got HaHa. It's highly probable that in 2/3 months we'll learn that Bruce ordered the trade because he saw HaHa and D.J. high on those PFF lists and thought it would be cool. Then he forced HaHa onto Manusky and Jay...

 

I'm guessing, but that wouldn't surprise me at all.

[Est.1974]

2 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

 

From what I'm reading and watching lately, it really looks like Jay wants to get the hell out of here soon... Our D went south when we got HaHa. It's highly probable that in 2/3 months we'll learn that Bruce ordered the trade because he saw HaHa and D.J. high on those PFF lists and thought it would be cool. Then he forced HaHa onto Manusky and Jay...

 

I agree. Gruden clearly wants out. Chances are the dirt will come out soon enough, and it'll be about him being undermined in some capacity.

 

Although he has proven himself to be an average HC so it seems like a very good time to move on as soon as possible.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

8 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

I agree. Gruden clearly wants out. Chances are the dirt will come out soon enough, and it'll be about him being undermined in some capacity.

 

Although he has proven himself to be an average HC so it seems like a very good time to move on as soon as possible.

 

Yeah, Gruden will come out of this just fine. You have to fail big time in Washington for the blame to be assigned to you. Gruden will leave with 5 years of head coaching experience, some very strong offensive seasons on his resume, along with 4 consecutive years of competitive teams despite horrific injuries. Regardless of how we feel about those caveats, that is the general perception. 

 

I think he'll be an OC as soon as he wants to be and one of those next-in-line names in another couple years to be a head coach again (if he wants to). We also have to realize he's leaving Washington with $20M so at some point the headache won't be worth another couple million bucks. 

[Despy]

I've defended Jay up to this season, arguing that he's done well with what little he started with, and that he needs time to hone his craft and build.

 

Well, he's had enough time, he's still not a leader of men, and his offensive scheme is a dinosaur in the modern NFL.  As i see it, there is zero reason to keep him.

[BraveWarrior]

Jay is a players' coach, which has been to the detriment of the team. As soon as things go bad on a team coached by a players' coach, the players stop buying in, because they don't have the same respect/fear of what he'll do to them. 

 

Imagine what would happen to this group of players if they brought in a Belichick, or a Zimmer, or a Coughlin. Tough, demanding leaders who will make examples of underachieving spoiled brats.  

[volsmet]

There isn’t a person on the planet that believes Jay Gruden will win a Super Bowl. His atrocious offense never starts a game or a 2nd half with a touchdown, he prepares all week & never delivers, he goes into the half & never delivers to start the 2nd. Backup QBs put up 30+ for the Bears & Dolphins, but the offense Jay built never shines. There is nobody who hopes Jay Gruden becomes their coach & nobody who fears Jay taking over the team they hate the most.

 

Jay can’t stay.

 

 

[Est.1974]

I think Gruden will predominantly end up as an OC in this league.

 

Thats all the evaluation you need.

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

I like Jay, think his passing scheme is maybe top 10 if his players that can do what he wants.

 

Like many here, I just dont think he is a leader of men and maybe Im being reactionary and too caught up in the short term moment .. but just washing this Foster thing like its nothing seems to be final nail for me. At least Jay is being true to himself and its just who he is.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

9 hours ago, BraveWarrior said:

Imagine what would happen to this group of players if they brought in a Belichick, or a Zimmer, or a Coughlin. Tough, demanding leaders who will make examples of underachieving spoiled brats.  

Like Shanny and Haynesworth...we HAD that coach and sc*wed the pooch and lost Shanny Jr at the same time. If Jay leaves and talks about Dan through Bruce messin with the roster again...man I'm done with this team.

[Skinsinparadise]

Jay Gruden's job as head coach of the Redskins may be safe, according to The Washington Post's John Feinstein.

While the results of Gruden's five-year tenure have been underwhelming, Feinstein wouldn't be surprised if Gruden remains head coach as there may not be any better options for Washington owner Daniel Snyder. 

"I've said this before, I think Jay's a pretty good coach," Feinstein told The Sports JunkiesFriday. "Is he a great coach? No. But who's out there who would be willing to come and work here who's going to be better?"

 

If you're going to fire someone, regardless of the job, you better know who you can get who you think will do a better job," Feinstein said. 

The Junkies's Jason Bishop agreed with Feinstein.

"Yeah, I think that they're gonna stay with Jay because they like him, he's very likable," Bishop said. "He doesn't cause any problems... there's no power struggle with him."

In the past, Snyder has not worked well with coaches who are interested in taking a more active role in the organization. Feinstein noted the firings of Mike Shanahan and Marty Schottenheimer, both of whom had strong personalities.

Ironically, Feinstein said in order to win team's need a coach with a strong personality. 

"Bringing in a strong personality has not worked in the past (for the Redskins)," Feinstein said. "I think it's probably what you need in the NFL....if you're going to win at the highest levels." 

https://thefandc.radio.com/articles/feinstein-jay-gruden-may-be-best-redskins-can-get

[Peregrine]

On 12/13/2018 at 11:26 AM, goskins10 said:

 

Yea, everything is completely under his control. He has total say over everything to do with the Redskins. I think you know better than that even if you don;t want to admit it. 

 

The only thing we know for a fact is that the Redskins have purposely not created a traditional organization. So your assumption that Jay made the Joe Barry decision and other personnel decisions and that he can simply fire him if he is not doing his job, is just that, an assumption. 

 

So how can we as fans who are purposefully kept i nth dark as to how things work in this organization make any proclamations about who is responsible for what? Sure, he probably owns some of it, but not the majority. I am fairly certain that the Joe Barry decision vs Wade was much more a Bruce Allen call. Sure, Jay says the right things in public. He is a good soldier - and yes I agree that is part of why you move on. 

 

But knowing this organization is anything but conventional makes it unrealistic to grade him on a conventional organization. 

Im sorry, but this is a major cop out with a major flaw.

 

That flaw is: any half decent coach with self-respect wouldn't allow that from the front office.  He would believe in himself enough to tell the front office in no uncertain terms, that either he chooses the coaches, or he leaves.  But a coach that knows he cant get a job elsewhere wont do that.  Thats why Jim Zorn didnt.  No self-respecting decent coach would accept a head coaching job without first making sure he got full say over his assistant coaches.

 

To make matters worse, any self-respecting coach in his position would know full well that he will get fired and have to accept an OC job somewhere.  So why not force their hand, quit, and take an OC job somewhere where at least everyone still looks at you like you did a decent job and had a backbone.  It is 1000% Grudens fault for the hires, or, in your fantastical world where he doesnt get to make them, for not forcing Snyder/Allen's hand to make those hires in an environment where Snyder/Allen wouldnt want the bad press getting out about them meddling again and would just cave.

[Cooleyfan1993]

So, Saints took simmie cobbs off our practice squad. Cause we failed to promote him once our WR group went all to ****. Thanks Jay. 

[goskins10]

45 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Im sorry, but this is a major cop out with a major flaw.

 

That flaw is: any half decent coach with self-respect wouldn't allow that from the front office.  He would believe in himself enough to tell the front office in no uncertain terms, that either he chooses the coaches, or he leaves.  But a coach that knows he cant get a job elsewhere wont do that.  Thats why Jim Zorn didnt.  No self-respecting decent coach would accept a head coaching job without first making sure he got full say over his assistant coaches.

 

To make matters worse, any self-respecting coach in his position would know full well that he will get fired and have to accept an OC job somewhere.  So why not force their hand, quit, and take an OC job somewhere where at least everyone still looks at you like you did a decent job and had a backbone.  It is 1000% Grudens fault for the hires, or, in your fantastical world where he doesnt get to make them, for not forcing Snyder/Allen's hand to make those hires in an environment where Snyder/Allen wouldnt want the bad press getting out about them meddling again and would just cave.

 

You and burgold both responded as if I was stating he should be kept on as HC. Please tell me where I said that. In fact I stated emphatically that it's time to move on. 

 

Let me make this easier:  I BELIEVE THE BEST THING FOR THE WASHINGTON REDSKINS IS TO FIRE JAY GRUDEN ALONG WITH BRUCE ALLEN!

 

So the only cop out is that you like a few others did not actually read the comment. You just saw someone say you can't blame Jay for everything since it's a totally ****ed up FO organization and went to town with a response that he still needs to go. 

 

My point was/is and will always be that just because it's time for him to move on you can't jut pile on him and blame him for things that you could in a traditional organization. You can say all that stuff about self-respecting coaches, but you are not in the room. You do not know the dynamics. I don't either. For that matter, maybe he is making every single decision and hiding behind Bruce! The fact is we do not know and that's the point.

 

What we do know is that Bruce is president and likes power as he has spent the last 9 yrs gathering said power. We also know he has made some final decisions because he has said so and others have said he has over-ruled others in the room. We also know he is BFFs with Dan. Is that really that big a stretch to come to the conclusion that despite how it's supposed to work that instead Bruce is deciding the assistants and making last calls on personnel against the wishes of the HC? Or that Dan is still pulling strings? 

 

It's easy to say just quit or walk away or force their hand. But there are still only 32 NFL HCing jobs. He has been here 5 yrs and his family is here and stable. It's just not as easy as it sounds sitting behind a computer when it's not your job to walk away from.