Voice_of_Reason

Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

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2 hours ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Gruden has to playcall wayyyy better. Gotta somehow make 2nd half adjustments. 

 

However i do love seeing that he tipped the refs off about the cowboys illegal movement of the football. It definitely helped us get the win

 

I agree, and I do think Gruden lacks confidence, but he lacks confidence in Alex Smith. They are both professionals, and they will continue to improve, especially when we get more speed back from injury to open things up. But right now its a problem. 

 

If Alex Smith hits Sprinkle on first and goal early in the third quarter, and he hits Josh Doctson who easily had a step or 2 on the d in the first half, we'd all be talking about Gruden's play calling a lot different right now. I saw him visibly frustrated with Smith. The guy has to let it rip sometimes.  

 

With all that said ... 

 

5 turnovers. 

 

11 takeaways. 

 

Yesterday, 2-0. 

 

It wins games in the NFL. 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

Count me in on the Ditch Gruden train.  Yeah, we won and put two victories back to back, but the play calling by Gruden in that last series was absolutely pathetic.  Everyone in the building knew it was going to be run, run, pass.  I was hoping for a screen pass or something to catch the defense off guard, but nope.  50 gut with AP.  Then the next play - same thing, same result. Then a pass on 3rd and long when there's absolutely no surprise that it's going to be a pass.  Gutless play calling.

And we've seen it in just about every single time he's in this situation.

 

Remember a couple weeks ago when McVay had the opportunity to put away the Vikings (I think) with his offense and not turn the ball back to them?  He even went for it on 4th and short to try and end the game on offense rather than punting and trying to stop them on defense.

 

This is why McVay is ALREADY a better coach, and seemingly significantly better, than Gruden.  Even if McVay has a more talented team, he understands situations, what makes sense and how to win. 

 

Gruden is SO much like Marvin Lewis or Fisher. Just "meh" and conservative at the wrong times. 

 

Without going to the film, I immediately think of the Detroit game in 2016, the KC game last year and the Saints game last year where Gruden elected to run 2 or 3 times and punt and put the defense on the field and it failed all three times.

 

And I swear, minus a bonehead long snapper, it might have failed again. 

 

Jay did EVERYTHING wrong from 6 minutes in, and was bailed out. 

 

I love the win.  It's great.  And it's so much better to be having this conversation at 4-2 than 3-3.  But I doubt he even realizes what a gutless wonder he is, and he won't change.

 

That said, unless the team falls apart for completely unknown reasons, they really should get to 5-2 next week.  This is actually the first game since the Colts game the 'Skins will really be a heavy favorite in.  They were a favorite against both Dallas and Carolina, but not by much.  They SHOULD beat the Giants, who suck. 

 

And the way the schedule is shaping up, this could be 2015 all over again.  9-7, 10-6 playoff team in a very weak NFC East.  I'll take it, though.  And hope for the best in the playoffs. 

 

God, it would suck to make the playoffs and play the Vikings and get lit up by Kirk, which could happen if GB wins the division.... That would be my worst life.  Though, the silver lining would be that Bruce would probably be having a worse night than me...

1 minute ago, SkinsNoles21 said:

 

I agree, and I do think Gruden lacks confidence, but he lacks confidence in Alex Smith. They are both professionals, and they will continue to improve, especially when we get more speed back from injury to open things up. But right now its a problem. 

The play calling inside 6 minutes is a 4 year trend and has nothing to do with Smith.  It's just who he is. 

 

1 minute ago, SkinsNoles21 said:

If Alex Smith hits Sprinkle on first and goal early in the third quarter, and he hits Josh Doctson who easily had a step or 2 on the d in the first half, we'd all be talking about Gruden's play calling a lot different right now. I saw him visibly frustrated with Smith. The guy has to let it rip sometimes.  

As I've said, I have no problems really with Gruden's play calling up to the final drive.  Smith cost them at least 10 points by just missing open guys.  VD once, Doctson twice, Sprinkle in the endzone.  The book on him is he was accurate.  Well, maybe, but not so much recently. 

 

1 minute ago, SkinsNoles21 said:

With all that said ... 

 

5 turnovers. 

 

11 takeaways. 

 

Yesterday, 2-0. 

 

It wins games in the NFL. 

 

 

 

The problem with counting on turnovers is they tend to come in bunches and they also are a bit fluky.  You can't really build a defense around it.  It's rare those trends keep up through the entire season.

 

But you're right, if you win the turnover battle, play good defense and run the ball, you win more than you lose.  Without a doubt. 

 

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Right now my shortlist includes Dan Enos, who has been a favorite of mine since his days at Central Michigan but especially so during his time at Arkansas as OC. Now with Alabama, he along with Tua are the single most impressive QB player -- OC -- QB coach -- production group of the 2018 college season. 

 

And also (actually) Kliff Kingsbury, who probably is the closest representation of the modern football game from an offensive, schematic, perspective and who has, in many ways, bucked the trend of the dubious rep that air raid QBs have had once going to the NFL. In fact, he's produced a number of OBs who are now reaping the rewards of NFL success, since of course the NFL has adopted the 'college offense' scheme wholesale, especially so this year in 2018, leaguewide. 

 

 

[ Those two on the offensive side of things, as far as college coaches go, are my candidates to replace Gruden. Which of course won't happen. Because as long as Bruce is here, he's tied hip to hip with Gruden and now Alex Smith. And the Smith contract kind-of precludes several years of this square dancing nonsense.

 

That's also buttressed if this team has a winning record, which of course is currently on borrowed time. We know screen passes and riding an aging AP is not sustainable each and every week for 16+ weeks. That's just an aside. But every win is I'm sure, magnified by Bruce. And is certainly so done here by the pro Smith/Grudes/Bruce clan. ]

 

 

I also still hold out some favor to the consistently passed over special team coach, Dave Toub, who probably represents the age old criteria of commanding officer type of head coaches, who are leader of men types, have a strong voice and presence about them, can take over a room of grown men while also leading other coaches, able to lead other alphas. That type of guy. 

 

But, the NFL is, in large part, hierarchal. If not completely hierarchal. Owners seem to like the classic ascension template of assistants going from positional coaches to coordinators, gathering years of NFL workplace experience, showing the willingness to "kiss the ring," while gathering trade secrets before being given the (often) largely symbolic position of head coach. 

 

A lot of owners are already biased toward offensive coaches, the "mastermind" archetype, inherently. The NFL is in other ways often usually about recycling coaches as well. A lot of times the pool of candidates are exclusively NFL coaches, not collegiate. But there are of course exceptions. 

 

But largely in the fan psyche, a lot of fans have bias against or downright cliche laden tripe about collegiate coaches. Yet, I've argued quite clearly that anyone who knows what they are looking at each and every Sunday, is exactly seeing, almost entirely, what most detractors have called college offense, now here in the NFL with virtually every team. 

 

I don't know Matt LaFleur personally, and I haven't studied what he's done so far as OC the last two years. And I don't know if he still has favor within this washington organization. I know he used to be here, he's at least been with the shanahan's and mcvay and "learned" through osmosis (presumably).

So, WCO derivative, that must mean Dan is willing to give him a look see. (intentional snark).

 

But in seriousness, I'd have to know his personalty to gauge whether he could be a leader of men type. I just don't know him. 

 

 

 

I know others have mentioned DeFilippo. I mean, clearly he meets the radar signature of the mainstream fan who doesn't know a damn thing about the guy other than he's been associated with recently successful teams and he's a QB coach, who then of course gets the offensive coach bonus checkmark through association. So, that usually means Dan Synder is all-in on the guy. Quick google search and offensive persuasion and Dan's ready to crack open the Crown. 

 

Likewise with LaFleur, I haven't studied DeFlip's personality or stylistic schemes. I'll try to get around to it. 

 

Edited by Monk4thaHALL

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On the same note as Dave Toub, I've read some good things about Dan Campbell, who's down in New Orleans.

 

I don't think he's an offensive guru, from what I've read and watched of his interviews. Not the heir apparent to replacing Sean Payton and reinventing the forward pass.

 

But he's got the 'big stud,' control a room type frame of body and the 'look you in the eye' and strong voice kind-of character that Toub seems to have. You know, o-line coaches and TE coaches are the same, they basically work hand in glove together anyway, they are all cut from the same cloth. Those types are all tough sob's. The kind of coach that other coaches wouldn't challenge if push came to shove, so to speak. 

 

He likely would be a coach who could probably sell the 'charge hill 262' to the players, but who would be very dependent upon coordinators in order to function at a high level to achieve schematic success. 

 

[Always liked and respected Mike Munchak and too Mike Mularkey.]

Edited by Monk4thaHALL

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We're talking about a shortlist of candidates to replace our head coach while we are currently 4-2 coming off a win against Dallas. Yeah, see, that just doesn't make sense to me. And not because I think Jay Gruden is some untouchable great HC and that we could never do any better. But from a pure fan of the team standpoint, I will never understand directing your attention toward tearing Gruden down given where we stand right now. I mean it's not often we find ourselves in the position we are right now, enjoy it, sheesh.

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Disturbs me how Romo called all our plays in succession near the end of the game. (Cool that he can but wow is Jay predictable...he did same for Garrett lol)

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Jay's coaching with us has always been in that spot where he doesn't produce a bad enough team or have a bad enough record to get himself fired, but he also never produces a good enough team to be a consistent winner. Feels like we're forever stuck in the middling doldrums with "Aw Shucks" Gruden. 

 

2 minutes ago, FS#21 said:

Disturbs me how Romo called all our plays in succession near the end of the game. (Cool that he can but wow is Jay predictable...he did same for Garrett lol)

 

Yeah I noticed that too. heh. To be honest, I actually really like Romo's commentary during games. Sure, he still shows his Dallas homerism sometimes, but it isn't all that bad and would we really expect any less than that from a guy who had played for us for 13 years?

Edited by mistertim

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2 minutes ago, FS#21 said:

Disturbs me how Romo called all our plays in succession near the end of the game. (Cool that he can but wow is Jay predictable...he did same for Garrett lol)

Yeah, this bugged me too. Team has to execute perfectly to win if the defense knows exactly what the offense wants to do. Plus, it really was predictable. I don't mind the Riggo drill if you can pull it off, but since they didn't then showing your cards before placing your bet seems an awful dumb way to play poker.

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1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

We're talking about a shortlist of candidates to replace our head coach while we are currently 4-2 coming off a win against Dallas. Yeah, see, that just doesn't make sense to me. And not because I think Jay Gruden is some untouchable great HC and that we could never do any better. But from a pure fan of the team standpoint, I will never understand directing your attention toward tearing Gruden down given where we stand right now. I mean it's not often we find ourselves in the position we are right now, enjoy it, sheesh.

We actually agree on something, who would have thought?

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3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

get lit up by Kirk, which WOULDNT HAPPEN

 

Our defense would eat him alive..the way they man handled the cowboys o line. Haha they would throw Kirk's blockers around like rag dolls...

30 minutes ago, FS#21 said:

Disturbs me how Romo called all our plays in succession near the end of the game. (Cool that he can but wow is Jay predictable...he did same for Garrett lol)

Soooo glad the volume was down on the TV I was watching haha

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i am in new coach in 19 column, even with a playoff birth.

 

I don't decide though. I said 8-8 and Jay gets year 6.  Given how the east is shaping up, Jay probably needs a playoff birth. The east is there for the taking and if he fails, Dan probably moves on.

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Putting aside the coaching issues for a sec... I gotta say, I feel bad for Gruden.  4 years with the pass game as the strength of the team, needing a decent D and run game to take the next step.  Finally gets his D and run game... and the passing game takes a big step back.  

 

 

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13 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

We're talking about a shortlist of candidates to replace our head coach while we are currently 4-2 coming off a win against Dallas. Yeah, see, that just doesn't make sense to me. And not because I think Jay Gruden is some untouchable great HC and that we could never do any better. But from a pure fan of the team standpoint, I will never understand directing your attention toward tearing Gruden down given where we stand right now. I mean it's not often we find ourselves in the position we are right now, enjoy it, sheesh.

 

 Well, IMO, the Redskins 4-2 record is more reflective of the players skillset more than the coaching aspect of it.  Gruden is an ok coach, not great, just ok. He's not creative enough given the talent on the team, let alone the shut-down conservative play calling when the Redskins have a lead. That style of coaching will usually get a team an average record, 8-8, 7-9, maybe 9-7, but it won't go beyond that. This league its either eat or be eaten, and the more aggressive coaches have their teams attacking WITH a lead, not shutting down and trying to run out the clock.

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Big game for Gruden.  The expectation is that they go up there and win this game.  Against a 1-6 team on a short week.

 

This would be a bad week to have a dud.  A very bad week.

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4 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Big game for Gruden.  The expectation is that they go up there and win this game.  Against a 1-6 team on a short week.

 

This would be a bad week to have a dud.  A very bad week.

 

It would be so, so, so Redskins though.

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On 10/22/2018 at 7:25 PM, FS#21 said:

Disturbs me how Romo called all our plays in succession near the end of the game. (Cool that he can but wow is Jay predictable...he did same for Garrett lol)

 

He does that all the time for various teams. I remember when the Cowboys were driving to their TD late in the game. They had 3 WRs to the right and he said "this is looking like a run left unless they..." and then Beasley motioned to the left as Romo was saying "...bring Beasley in motion to iso him" or something similar. Sure enough, they threw a quick pass to Beasley 3 seconds later. 

 

My point is that these guys watch film too and understand what all the teams are doing. I don't think Romo diagnosing our plays means anything. 

29 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

Seriously, how did we end up with the good Gruden?

 

That's an upset, right?

 

If there's one team that's out-Redskin'd the Redskins over the past 15 or so years, it's the Raiders. This might honestly be the ONLY team I'd expect to get something more wrong than us. 

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Here's the thing about this team with Gruden, and it does kinda remind me of previous good years like 2008. We have a TEAM. Previous seasons, like last year and 2016 and 2012 were years where we had good teams and were winning games, but it was mainly on the shoulders of one guy: Cousins and Griffin. In the gameday threads I compared this to a Gibbs team and I think Smith is playing similar to Brunell or Campbell in Gibbs 2 years, or maybe some other QBs in Gibbs 1 era (outside of MR11's dominant year and Theisman's MVP year), but we're finding ways to win games and we're seeing our players grow. A lot of this started 

 

Like, everybody was talking about the loss of Fuller and how it was going to hurt our defense, but you're seeing that he was replaceable because we did replace him with somebody who was already on the roster (Moreau) and two low round rookies in Johnson and Stroman, and our defense is no worse for it. And we lost Breeland and replaced him with Dunbar with little impact on our defense. But what we're seeing is these guys are growing and learning as players.

 

We're seeing Doctson develop a chemistry with Smith. How much of that was Smith going to Gruden saying "I don't like Doctson running deep all the time, I'd rather throw him a skinny post where he can win easily and body the defender", but I do know that Doctson has had probably his two most consistent games as a Redskin these past two weeks.

 

Last week we saw a major play from Bibbs on the screen taking it to the house. We saw the sack fumble TD last week. We've seen Davis (re-)emerge as a weapon on offense so much that its a legit question of do we need to force it to Reed or can we take the open pass to Davis that many teams will give us? 

 

We see some guys that I mean what can I call them other than unhearlded heros like Matt I, and JHC who had good games this year. And I think JHC has been really good at covering TEs and pass catching backs this year. It was nice to see him get a sack so that his name gets mentioned more regularly but these are low round guys who are not supposed to even make a roster, let along be regular contributors. Heck, add to that Chase Roullier who is looking dominant again at C. 

 

And I really wonder what that means about the future of this team. Somebody said in the GD thread that this team is playing so well that Gruden may get fired if he only wins 9 games, and I could see that, kinda like Norv's last year under Danny. But aside from that. I wonder if this is what we're going to be expecting going forward? Will Alexander be competing for a starting position at CB next year? Will Anderson be pushing P. Smith for a starting job? What do they see in Dunn and can he play LG well? What about Arie? Was he a legit option there? 

 

I mean I know a lot of this  year's success goes to how well 3 guys have played - AP, Jonathan Allen and Da'Ron Payne, but just those three players have allowed us to see that we have some talent at a lot of other places, which shows that we are actually doing a good job of developing that talent. What if the Moses / Long / Thompson / Murphy / Matt I, etc second year jumps wasn't a fluke, but what if that becomes more of the norm here. I think that you have to look at Jay in a few different phases (the talent evaluator, the talent developer / teacher, the playcaller, the clock manager, etc), but the guy who's developing talent seems to do a good job and I think is a large part behind the reason that we won this game with such a young roster. 

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It may be a "smart" thing to no push Alex into situations he is not comfortable with ..YET. The running game and D is working...why push it against the G-men or Atlanta..give Smith some time and get his starting receivers back in the flow.

 

People complain that Alex isn't burning up the place or playing like he did at KC  ...No Preseason Reps..turn over at WR and a new system and a S-load of pressure from our "FANS"....just make me laugh.

 

Give the man some slack..he's not turning the ball over! YOU LIKE THAT???

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1 hour ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

It may be a "smart" thing to no push Alex into situations he is not comfortable with ..YET. The running game and D is working...why push it against the G-men or Atlanta..give Smith some time and get his starting receivers back in the flow.

 

People complain that Alex isn't burning up the place or playing like he did at KC  ...No Preseason Reps..turn over at WR and a new system and a S-load of pressure from our "FANS"....just make me laugh.

 

Give the man some slack..he's not turning the ball over! YOU LIKE THAT???

 

 Then why did they go and give him a 80 mil contract for?  That's one expensive game manager, and we pretty much had that in Colt for a fraction of the cost.

 If he were a 3rd or 4th year pro, then I'd be in agreement, but he's a seasoned veteran, he's seen a lot, been through a lot, studied a lot; WRs all run the same routes, its not like he's learning to throw to WRs for the first time, he's been doing it all his career; but one of the big negatives with him is he's not an accurate deep passer.

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10 hours ago, skins island connection said:

 

 Then why did they go and give him a 80 mil contract for?  That's one expensive game manager, and we pretty much had that in Colt for a fraction of the cost.

 If he were a 3rd or 4th year pro, then I'd be in agreement, but he's a seasoned veteran, he's seen a lot, been through a lot, studied a lot; WRs all run the same routes, its not like he's learning to throw to WRs for the first time, he's been doing it all his career; but one of the big negatives with him is he's not an accurate deep passer.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2803271-vikings-qb-kirk-cousins-already-looking-like-an-84-million-flop?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

 

Just sayin....

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I'm ready to move on to a new coach. 

Get somebody fresh in here.

Obviously I want to finish the season with Gruden, you dont fire your head coach when you're leading the division ( not that snyder hasn't done it before) but he just doesn't have it.

I don't think we'll ever be a true contender under Jay he just gets out coached far too often and is wildly inconsistent. 

So frustrating that we let mcvay go to the rams.

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3 minutes ago, redskinss said:

I'm ready to move on to a new coach. 

Get somebody fresh in here.

Obviously I want to finish the season with Gruden, you dont fire your head coach when you're leading the division ( not that snyder hasn't done it before) but he just doesn't have it.

I don't think we'll ever be a true contender under Jay he just gets out coached far too often and is wildly inconsistent. 

So frustrating that we let mcvay go to the rams.

 

I agree 100% and losing Mcvay hurts. 

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Was actually just looking to find this thread...

 

A lot to complain about today, but for me I'm totally hacked off that he chose to punt at 28-14 down. Gutless. Game over at that point. Even as an armchair fan from thousands of miles away, it was simply obvious that we needed to score on that drive. 

 

Gruden just hasn't got 'it'.

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