Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

[Cooleyfan1993]

1 minute ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Oh, I wasn't clear...I didn't mean that we accomplished it, but it was a topic of conversation when it was possible going into the final game against the Giants. 

Yes that makes much more sense  

 

doing it 3 out of 4 years though, yeah that would be awesome to see. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Aikman said. "But I just think Washington is so beat up. How they're doing it is pretty remarkable. I think Jay Gruden has done a really good job considering what all they have loss. 

https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/cowboys/2018/11/13/troy-aikman-pick-cowboys-win-nfc-east-right-now

[skinfan2k]

Keep Doubting Gruden.  This guy is a leader and a damn leader.  0 drama in this lockeroom despite the record.  Do you know how many guys in the NFL would have tuned him out already?  He is getting scrubs from the last 2 years to play for him and fight for him.  

 

It's funny to see fans think Gruden could have had more than 8 wins with this trash roster.  Winning 7 games with that trash last year was his best work yet. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

3 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Yes that makes much more sense  

 

doing it 3 out of 4 years though, yeah that would be awesome to see. 

 

My point is that he basically has already given the 6-3 start and 2 game lead...not that I want to limp into the end of the year, but we are guaranteed to play our next two divisional games (11/22 at Dallas and 12/3 at Philly) with at least a share of first place. At that point, it's meaningful football in December. Win either of those or the following game and we are still in striking distance for a bit. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

9 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

My point is that he basically has already given the 6-3 start and 2 game lead...not that I want to limp into the end of the year, but we are guaranteed to play our next two divisional games (11/22 at Dallas and 12/3 at Philly) with at least a share of first place. At that point, it's meaningful football in December. Win either of those or the following game and we are still in striking distance for a bit. 

Yes i got that. I was adding to that by saying a winning record 3 out of 4 years would also be awesome  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 minute ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Yes i got that. I was adding to that by saying a winning record 3 out of 4 years would also be awesome  

I hope we get there...I would really like to see 10 this year!

[Hooper]

3 hours ago, skinfan2k said:

Keep Doubting Gruden.  This guy is a leader and a damn leader.  0 drama in this lockeroom despite the record.  Do you know how many guys in the NFL would have tuned him out already?  He is getting scrubs from the last 2 years to play for him and fight for him.  

 

It's funny to see fans think Gruden could have had more than 8 wins with this trash roster.  Winning 7 games with that trash last year was his best work yet. 

Well said.

 

There is a ton of respect for Gruden around the league.

 

Also, the McVay talk... just stop. 

 

I live in LA. Rams are my surrogate team. But you are talking about two entirely different organizations and jobs period. For one thing, you basically get a free pass from the media in LA. There aren't 100 articles in the paper trying to stir up drama. For another, you have one of the richest owners in football who does nothing but write massive checks and then stay completely out of the way. Snyder keeping Bruce Allen around over the years is proof that he is far from that type of owner.

 

Not to mention Goff is so much more talented than he gets credit for. He has made some throws this year that few other QBs can make.

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, skinfan2k said:

Keep Doubting Gruden.  This guy is a leader and a damn leader.  0 drama in this lockeroom despite the record.  Do you know how many guys in the NFL would have tuned him out already?  He is getting scrubs from the last 2 years to play for him and fight for him.  

 

It's funny to see fans think Gruden could have had more than 8 wins with this trash roster.  Winning 7 games with that trash last year was his best work yet. 

 

Don't agree its a trash roster but last year with all the injuries it was.  But I agree with your overall point, i think he's getting a lot out of this roster.  And to coach this team and keep the drama and nonsense at bay -- that's remarkable considering what has taken place over the years via the FO and the owner.

 

Some people are annoyed by Jay's laid back-take things in stride personality but I think that's the core reason why he's successfully survived in that jungle. 

[Hooper]

30 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Some people are annoyed by Jay's laid back-take things in stride personality but I think that's the core reason why he's successfully survived in that jungle. 

 

Boom. Exactly right. 

[RandyHolt]

I have complained about Jay's conservative offense. No hurry up even tried in blowouts, no trickery, jet sweep to our slowest WR.... yet here I am shoveling crow.  I am thinking that Alex Smith may be the perfect QB for Jay.  Both are slow and steady win the race types.

 

I want to see Jay blowing up at an official over a bad call. That isn't him.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

i think we are giving him too much credit, let’s see how the season ends.  This isn’t a trash roster. We have an all pro defense and a journeyman qb and a decent rb.... The offensive game plan needs work, it’s not creative at all.

 

Hes not on the hot seat. but he hasn’t done anything to movie the neadle from average nfl coach to above average.

 

 

But hey, at least we didn’t get stuck with Jon.

[88Comrade2000]

On 11/11/2018 at 11:47 AM, Voice_of_Reason said:

I would have fired Jay after 2016 regardless.  The Joe Barry hire and the subsequent defense which ended up historically bad, the blown games and no-shows down the stretch were enough of a reason to make a change.  We knew what we had in Gruden the day after the 2016 Giants loss and the failure to get his most talented team, especially offensively, into the playoffs.  Nothing since then has changed the narrative one bit. He is now exactly who he was then. 

 

There's an karmic echo with Jay and Norv Turner.

I finally realized in 1997, when we went 8-7-1; that Norv Turner wasn't a good coach. 

He lasted 3 games short of 3 full seasons more.

 

You could tell if not in 2016, in 2017; that Jay wasn't a good coach.  Jay is a mediocre at best with a ceiling.  He's not Hue Jackson awful but he's just average. He can get you to around 7-9 wins.

 

We are 6-3.  A playoff berth seems likely, especially since the NFC EAST is down. 4 out of 7 games is against the NFC East.  Road games with Dallas and Philly and home games with New York and Philly.  We should win at least 2 of those games.  Our other 3 games, are against the remaining AFC South teams.  Home vs Texans and road games against Jags and Titans. Probably, win at least 1 of those. 9-7 seems the most likely finish and probable division title and then a quick playoff exit.

 

If the Redskins somehow blow this and miss the playoffs, Jay is done. There's no way, he can survive a 6-3 start and miss the playoffs.   If he makes the playoffs as expected, I really do believe he will get a contract extension.

 

Next year when the Eagles and Cowboys are better, the Skins will slip back into being a non-playoff team.  Then in 2020 we fail to meet expectations and the ax finally occurs. Everything in my gut now tells me, the Gruden era is a karma echo of the Turner era..

[dav87sc]

I think Jay has been doing a pretty decent job, overall.  He has brought a sense of stability to the coaching staff after a few false starts(I attribute that to thinking a little out of the box and a difficult time luring the right coaches here at the beginning).  He has brought his attitude and style of "coaching them up" and belief in his players and staff, and we are seeing the dividends of his approach.

 

Do I think he will take this organization to the SB?  No, but he stabilized a crap show and brought it from terrible to mediocre bordering on good.  Long term, will this organization need new blood to bring it to the highest level, probably(and the necessary FO structure).  But I think if you went back 5 years, you would read the complaints and desires for a coach to do just what he has done.  I am not forgetting every fan wants to see a 1 year turn-around and SB win(but really....).

 

This is not to minimize his areas of weakness, ie clock management, a varied play calling plan, etc.  Will he continue to grow as a coach, absolutely.  Does Snyder or the fan base have the patience to see him here long-term to make that growth? probably not.

[goskins10]

I agree Jay and the team have to make the playoffs or he and Bruce should be replaced. Anything short at this point should be considered an absolute failure. Having said that, to ignore the very good job he and the staff have done to this point is disingenuous. 

 

No one, including him could see Alex playing at such poor level. This is not to start another Alex thread - we have one. Just making the point here as it pertains to Jay. That and many missing parts to the offense have limited what Jay can even try to do. Last week you had almost an entirely new Oline. In fairness to them they played pretty damn well considering. Some of that credit has to go to Jay. 

 

People can't just blame everything that goes wrong on Jay saying he is the HC then ignore anything positive as due to someone else or him just being lucky. Well you can, but that's ignorant to be quite frank. 

 

We also know that more than once Bruce has overruled Jay on personnel. NFL rosters are somewhat fragile. All it takes is a few right or wrong pieces and it can determine the entire direction of the team. In Bruce's defense to a point -  (he is still a POS in my mind but I digress) - keeping Lauvao was stupid. I totally agree. But as for the other Oline injuries - they drafted a Christian (not the place for if it was the right person to draft, but like the pick or not they addressed the need - please complain about Christian somewhere else) and kept Ty - who yes has his own history of injury but so far has done a decent job. No way to know Scherff is going down. Yet they were able to get guys ready who did an admirable job agaisnt Tampa - the best part of thier D - yes that may not be saying much but they do have a decent front 7. It's the back end that is horrendous. 

 

WR they made a mistake - but whose mistake? Jay can only say who he wants and hope he gets them. When he tells Bruce I need a WR or two - a good WR or two and Bruce says well i will give you this guy who has an injury history but potential. Jay may not be happy but he has to deal with it best he can. 

 

And while we are at it, if you bust Jay for wanting Barry, then you have to give him credit for selecting Manusky. He is taking a young raw group and doing a hell of a job with them. Tomsula, Grey also doing excellent. So Ok, it took him a second choice (Haslett was forced on him. Anyone saying differently is not be realistic at all). Do you get every decision right the first time? 

 

My biggest compliment for Jay that many of his detractors conveniently forget or ignore, is that since he has been here, him and the coaches have done a very good job of developing players - something fans have no patience for despite screaming for it. This is how you build through the draft. There is a long list of players that the team has developed that the fans wanted gone after the fits time they stepped on the field (see Stroman for this years recipient of bench his ass!) The FA quick fix that people were lauding NY and Jacksonville for - how has that worked out? NY made a 1 yr run, not even making it very far, then have been hot **** since. Jacksonville had a nice yr last year and have been just plain bad this year. And both now have CAP issues. Giants currently sitting on $43M dead cap! They already have more than $9M next yr without doing anything else to add to it. Jax is not as bad with just, just $10M this year. But they have a real problem at QB - if they move on from Bortles he will be a $16.5M cap hit. Their LG is a $16M cap hit next year! And they have other contracts due. All becasue they went an a spending spree last yr. Yea, we have som contract issues too - but not the level of those two. We have lot of young guys on rookie contracts that are making positive contributions. I would release Norman and Reed next yr - yea it's $10M in dead Cap but gets you $14M in Cap space. Draft a TE high - along with a T and WR is the first 3 rds. Sign a top G in free agency. Finally send Lauvao out of here and provide back-up for Scherff if this is the beginning of the end. Peck problems tend to linger. But that's just me. Back to Jay. 

 

It's the nature of this team to probably get blown out against Houston (yes this is one of my main criticisms of Jay. The up and down nature of the team). But in reality it does not hurt us and may get them up for the dallas game which I see as the most important game left on the schedule. If they beat dallas, that makes getting to 9 wins pretty easy - what I see them needing as a minimum to win the div. Split with Philly and beat the giants, they are 5-1 in the Div and will at least get to 9-7.

 

Now if they somehow beat Houston - who is a very good, not great but a very good team - then it's an easy walk in. So while we fans can look forward I hope that Jay and the team seize this opportunity to put a stranglehold on the division and beat Houston. The opportunity is there. Let's see what happens. 

 

[skins island connection]

7 hours ago, dav87sc said:

 

This is not to minimize his areas of weakness, ie clock management, a varied play calling plan, etc.  Will he continue to grow as a coach, absolutely.  Does Snyder or the fan base have the patience to see him here long-term to make that growth? probably not.

 

 This is one particular area that separates good coaches from average ones.

 One of the most important aspects of a coach is actual in-game adjustment and how to counter the unexpected. To see an opponent utilizing a player or scheme and succeeding, and making changes to counter or slow down that opponent's directive.

 

 Its not only this year, but also past years, where Jay would not make critical adjustments until opponents had milked everything they could out of a play or player before Jay ultimately broke down and tried to counter it, but by then it was too late, and that opponent had already started to change their attack and stay a move or two ahead of Jay.

 

This is the quality a coach must have if he wants to be successful in this league. The situation was similar in years past with a different QB; opponents saw what Jay was trying to accomplish and countered it and made it work to their advantage; it was clear to many what was going on but he refused to make changes, and eventually opponents caught up and took over, and by then all the momentum went to opponents.

 

Jay isn't a bad coach, but he has a ceiling, and struggles to raise that ceiling when needed. That is the type of coach that will get you 7-9 wins a season but no more than that, and those wins are mostly weaker opponents; against the better teams in the league, he struggles, and loses.

If he were to be put on a team like the Cardinals, Jets, or Bills, he would be able to eventually get them to respectability, 7-9 wins a season, but it stops there; the ultimate goal, every season, is a Super Bowl, but he's not the type of coach who is flexible enough to get a team there.

[Hooper]

I don't think people realize how hard it is to win when you have an owner like Snyder.

 

There's a reason certain franchises struggle on a regular basis, no matter the coach. Starts at the top.

 

Jay has done better under Snyder than anybody in more ways than one. Says a lot.

[dav87sc]

5 hours ago, skins island connection said:

Jay isn't a bad coach, but he has a ceiling, and struggles to raise that ceiling when needed. That is the type of coach that will get you 7-9 wins a season but no more than that, and those wins are mostly weaker opponents; against the better teams in the league, he struggles, and loses.

If he were to be put on a team like the Cardinals, Jets, or Bills, he would be able to eventually get them to respectability, 7-9 wins a season, but it stops there; the ultimate goal, every season, is a Super Bowl, but he's not the type of coach who is flexible enough to get a team there.

I agree. 

He may eventually mature as a whole-game caller, but I don't think it will be here.

To  me, there is something about this place/owner that creates an atmosphere that wildly rocks from insanely crazy (Zorn, et al.) to vanilla bland/basic that are no longer viable.  Jay seems to be a middle ground, and that appears to be what he is good at.  I wonder (because I don't really know) if the creativity/risk taking thought process has been beaten out of him by just how dysfunctional this team was and the wildly erratic responses he received from all angles.  And yes, I would also consider that a short-coming.

Again, I am not justifying his short-comings, just pondering if the root cause is from outside him, or are from his true ceiling.

 

Now that the organization has somewhat stabilized, do you think it will be easier to attract a gm, coach and player talent that could bring us to the next level?

If so, then I will thank Jay for bringing us out of the crapper and into a position to start contending for something more than a consistent losing record.

 

[skinfan2k]

Sorry none of the teams given to Gruden were playoff rosters.  You guys act like we actually have playmakers on this team. 

[carex]

19 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

I have complained about Jay's conservative offense. No hurry up even tried in blowouts, no trickery, jet sweep to our slowest WR.... yet here I am shoveling crow.  I am thinking that Alex Smith may be the perfect QB for Jay.  Both are slow and steady win the race types.

 

I want to see Jay blowing up at an official over a bad call. That isn't him.

 

with Crowder and Richardson out we really don't have a fast fast WR

[Cooleyfan1993]

1 hour ago, skinfan2k said:

Sorry none of the teams given to Gruden were playoff rosters.  You guys act like we actually have playmakers on this team. 

We have a few in my opinion. Adrian Peterson. Jordan Reed (when healthy). Josh Doctson has been coming along nicely these past couple of weeks i think. Maurice Harris has been pretty good too. Thompson when healthy. 

[skinfan2k]

14 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

We have a few in my opinion. Adrian Peterson. Jordan Reed (when healthy). Josh Doctson has been coming along nicely these past couple of weeks i think. Maurice Harris has been pretty good too. Thompson when healthy. 

A playmaker changes games on 1 play.  we don't have a beckham, watt, antonio brown, zeke, gurley, 

[Cooleyfan1993]

4 minutes ago, skinfan2k said:

A playmaker changes games on 1 play.  we don't have a beckham, watt, antonio brown, zeke, gurley, 

A playmaker is also someone who makes plays (hence the name, PLAY MAKER). AP makes plays, as he has shown plenty of times this season. Thompson when healthy has shown he can make long TD runs that change games. In fact I’ve seen him do that PLENTY of times ??‍♂️ Josh Doctson these last couple of weeks has been making plays (and i guess one could say that TD this past weekend changed the game, making it a 13 point lead instead of a 6 point lead). And Maurice Harris has been making plays. 

 

As bad as our offense has been this year, I’ll take that  

[skinfan2k]

11 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

A playmaker is also someone who makes plays (hence the name, PLAY MAKER). AP makes plays, as he has shown plenty of times this season. Thompson when healthy has shown he can make long TD runs that change games. In fact I’ve seen him do that PLENTY of times ??‍♂️ Josh Doctson these last couple of weeks has been making plays (and i guess one could say that TD this past weekend changed the game, making it a 13 point lead instead of a 6 point lead). And Maurice Harris has been making plays. 

 

As bad as our offense has been this year, I’ll take that  

i guess i should have asked for a game changer or a franchise offensive player lol!

[Cooleyfan1993]

Just now, skinfan2k said:

i guess i should have asked for a game changer or a franchise offensive player lol!

Now i will agree we have none of those ? maybe Guice can end up being a game changer, but we won’t know that until next year ?

[skins island connection]

5 hours ago, skinfan2k said:

Sorry none of the teams given to Gruden were playoff rosters.  You guys act like we actually have playmakers on this team. 

 

2 hours ago, skinfan2k said:

A playmaker changes games on 1 play.  we don't have a beckham, watt, antonio brown, zeke, gurley, 

 

 Philly didn't have any playmakers last year, so I can't buy into that theory.

Would it be helpful? Yes, but its not an absolute.

 A coach who can recognize what he has in his players, what they can/can't do, and puts them in the best position to win his individual battle, and game plans to their strengths, THAT is not on this team, sorry.

Coaches like that make average players much better, even a 'game changer' in certain cases.

 

One could even make the case that this team HAD a bunch of very good players a few years ago, but only managed to squeeze out a 9-7 season and a first round exit in the playoffs.

This is why Gruden would be much better at coordinator than coach. A good coach would have been able to see the issues with, say, second half struggles after a game or 2 and corrected the problem at least a little, but 2nd halves of games this year are not working, and he has not found a way to correct this problem, and if there are any aspirations of post-season wins, this is a very critical issue to fix. Everyone knows the Redskins can not score points in the second half of games, it is well known.