Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

[Thirtyfive2seven]

I think he's a decent coach and given absolute crap for talent.  Alex Smith vs. Kirk Cousins.  Why did Cousins want out? Bruce Allen

The rest of the draft picks and free agency moves all fall to him or people he somehow gets to be place holders so he can avoid blame.  Everything goes back to Allen IMO.  Who hired this leftover Tampa Bay staff?  Allen.  Who thought it was a good idea to part ways with both Jackson and Garcon and leave the team with NOTHING at WR?  Allen.  Gruden does the best he can do with the crap talent on this roster.

 

Just read some comments about the Saints Rams game.  McVay.  Great decision there Brucy.

[joeken24]

Sound familiar?

http://forums.bengalszone.com/topic/24692-after-thoughtschargers-vs-bengals-playoff-thread/?tab=comments#comment-410165

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1913816

https://www.carolinahuddle.com/boards/topic/78109-jay-gruden-also-struggling-in-cinci-with-dalton/

 

You can teach a good dog new tricks. But an old one is another story. This **** is old. Both Grudens have convinced themselves that their way works.

 

2 hours ago, Thirtyfive2seven said:

I think he's a decent coach and given absolute crap for talent.  Alex Smith vs. Kirk Cousins.  Why did Cousins want out? Bruce Allen

The rest of the draft picks and free agency moves all fall to him or people he somehow gets to be place holders so he can avoid blame.  Everything goes back to Allen IMO.  Who hired this leftover Tampa Bay staff?  Allen.  Who thought it was a good idea to part ways with both Jackson and Garcon and leave the team with NOTHING at WR?  Allen.  Gruden does the best he can do with the crap talent on this roster.

 

Just read some comments about the Saints Rams game.  McVay.  Great decision there Brucy.

Gruden is not a good head coach. Plain and simple. Too ****ing stubborn and not innovative enough. He'll learn when he's coordinating for his older brother next year.

 

BTW, you can tell the McVay has command of that team.

 

[88Comrade2000]

6 hours ago, skinfan2k said:

 

Yeah.  We have overated talent.  Look at the expectations we already have for the Bama Boys.  It's unreal.  Mason Foster and Zack Brown are not good passing LBs.  This offense hasn't drafted a playmaker in years outside of Guice.  This team could have drafted a young Qb immediately after KC rejected that first tender to plan but they didnt.  This team is 5-2 and just beat GB, Carolina and Dallas.  You guys realize that going 10-6 you will lose 6 games.  

You assume we win 10 games, sometthhing Jay has never done.

 

Any team with offense than can score points, can beat us.

 

@ Tampa Bay- They scored 28 points in losing to Carolina.  If they can score 28 points against us, they will beat us.   That game is a tossup.

Houston - They are rolling right now, I'd expect them to beat us.

@Dallas-  The Skins lose more often than win on Thanksgiving vs Dallas.

 

We could easily be 5-6 after that stretch of games.

 

@ Eagles- Odds are this is a loss, especially if the Eagles have rebounded and 7-5/8-4 when we face them.

@Jags- Probably a win here, they are mess.

@Titans- Tossup.

Eagles- depends on what the record for both teams are going in. Tossup.

 

10-6 is possible but with this team, 9-7/8-8 seems more likely.

[skinzplay]

We're in the playoffs, with a first round bye. How do you expect this team to come out? I'm not talking about players' motivation. I'm talking about planning, scheme, preparation, game planning? When you have no confidence that your HC will have the team ready, there's a problem. Dude stands over there on the sideline looking as clueless as Barney Fife, and other coaches around the league routinely reinforce the reality that we all know exists beneath that veneer.

[Cooleyfan1993]

^well now you’re just dreaming, talking about this team ever having a 1st round bye week anytime soon  let’s be real, that only happens in my madden franchise mode?

[skinzplay]

He doesn't have the luxury of the injury excuse this year, sorry. You coach what you have, and if you demonstrate, over a sustained period of time, an inability to adequately prepare your team, then you're out.

 

Wishful thinking on that 1st round bye, hoss. ? 

[RandyHolt]

I don't like the lack of innovation or creativity on offense. AP running is great but we knew he will get shutdown some weeks. Without him we look lost.

 

Carolina had a 50 yd TD double reverse. Pats tried a flea flicker. We were down big all 2nd half and never tried hurry up, well outside of the time Davis made everyone rush to the line after a big catch to end the 3rd.  Mo Harris running fake jet sweeps or lining up in the backfield is really all that I see that could be considered deceptive, but he never gets the ball in those plays, and I doubt that the D is buying any of it since they never amount to anything.

 

We did score a TD when we were down big yesterday, but it was our slow play offense which required Smith taking a monster hit after a long run, and we never really mounted a comeback. Atlanta probably conceded that drive to milk 8 minutes off the clock which sealed our own fate. Harris had 100+ yards so there was a WR being utilized at least. Maybe Atlanta stopped covering him after all those fake jets/runs after all. 

 

RPOBFD. We can do more than that. Hey, at least we ran a screen play.  But it was too little too late. Everything Jay does just seems to take forever, or is so forced.

[skins island connection]

Neither Gruden is having any success.

Jay's brother is on the verge of being driven out of the Raiders, and is spewing out delusional dribble to the media.

Jay just says the same old thing; we gotta get better, we did some thing good today, gotta watch the film, { insert opponent } is a good team and are coached good, yada yada yada.

 

He hit a wall exactly like this in Cincy as well, and that was with a much better QB and team. He is what he is, average at best who doesn't game plan or adjust worth a flip, And now its gotten so bad that in home games there are more opponent fans than Redskin fans, but as long as the team is making money, so what...

[Skinsinparadise]

11 hours ago, Thirtyfive2seven said:

I think he's a decent coach and given absolute crap for talent.  Alex Smith vs. Kirk Cousins.  Why did Cousins want out? Bruce Allen

The rest of the draft picks and free agency moves all fall to him or people he somehow gets to be place holders so he can avoid blame.  Everything goes back to Allen IMO.  Who hired this leftover Tampa Bay staff?  Allen.  Who thought it was a good idea to part ways with both Jackson and Garcon and leave the team with NOTHING at WR?  Allen.  Gruden does the best he can do with the crap talent on this roster.

 

 

I am pretty much in the same place.  Don't love Jay as a coach but I like him.  And IMO its pretty darn easy to think that any hot shot coordinator is the next McVay but most of them flail once given the top job.  Look at what the Giants are going through as an example.  To me a HC isn't primarily about X's and O's but more about leadership, personality, people skills. 

 

I think the FO overestimated the whole Jay's system thing.   The idea that this offense could function with or without talent.  I even saw Doug say yeah in Jay's system QB's put up big numbers, 4000 yards, etc.  I think that's silly.  And for me that's not a knock on Jay's system.  I just don't believe any coach has some turn key system that makes mediocre talent -- great.  Bruce said in an interview when they let D. Jax and Garcon go that most of that production was gotten right back with Pryor and Quick.  Talk about getting things wrong.  Last year the offense was sunk in part by LG and lack of depth in the interior O line.  What was the solution this off season?  Nada.  Weaken it even more by letting their LG go and double down on the aging injury prone Lauvao.

 

The whole McVay thing to me is silly.  I am willing to hammer Bruce as much as anyone.  But what precedent can we think of when a 30 something assistant is elevated over his mentor friend to be the new HC after a winning albeit slightly winning season where they made the playoffs surprisingly the season before?  I doubt McVay would have even accepted the job if offered that way.

 

I do agree with those who say you need a new FO/GM and if that dude wants a different HC, let him do it.   I believe in a structure like that.  

 

If this team ends up in the direction it started and finishes 10-6.  Doubt Jay is going anywhere not should he IMO.   If the season goes south then probably changes comes.  But the way Dan operates I wouldn't be so sure a GM hires the HC and depending on what goes down, I see two potential problems factoring the culture Dan seems to adapt.

 

A.  The new GM lets say Kyle Smith or Schaffer is given the authority to a hire a new HC.  The way the FO is described where there is a fear element to how Dan goes about his business where people may feel compelled to cover their back.  I'd gather there might be a hankering to hire a HC who wouldn't make waves or poised to be any threat to the GM.  Some say that's what Vinny did with Zorn.  Some of Jay's detractors say that's what Bruce did with Jay.

 

B.  You hire a Saban type where you got the reverse thing cooking.  He'd want personnel control or hire a personnel guy who wouldn't pose a threat to himself,

 

My point is you never know what could come down the pike with change.  it might not be that rosy.  Some of Bruce's backers have thrown the same point at me.  But for me as for changing the FO structure, I am willing to take my chances.  As for head coaches, been there done that for decades about how the next dude will solve all ills.  Clearly, it hasn't really worked that way, yet.  Will see.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

Jay isn't a good coach.  People can try and shift all the blame to Bruce and blame talent, or injuries all they want, but the simple fact is Jay gets out-coached on a regular basis, his teams are often not well prepared, he consistently hires the wrong people and then keeps them in place forever,  he's simply a horrific play-caller, and has no idea how to adjust in-game. All of these traits go back to the beginning of his tenure, and all can be backed up by solid facts. 

 

The talent might be over-sold, but he doesn't even come close to maximizing the talent that he's given.  He can take an average roster and make it average, or he can take a good roster and make it above average. 

 

He hires the wrong people, delegates poorly, and never has answers for the simplest things. When asked yesterday about not being able to come back from being down, he mumbled something about not getting down.

 

His inability to see that DCs have basically figured out that he will call a run 85% of the time on first down, and it takes heroics from AP to bail him out of that stupidity is beyond description. 

 

He's a bad head coach.  Not average.  Not good.  BAD.

 

Btw, why is Quick inactive on game days when Doctson has shown nothing?  Maybe start rotating Quick/Harris/Doctson some as starters to see if one of them might be a better solution than Doctson?  How is it that Jordan Reed has basically been absent in the passing game all year with a QB who LOVES to throw balls to TEs?  How do we not scheme that one up a bit.

 

And this team has good personnel on defense, however Jay hired (again) a bottom 1/3 Defensive coordinator who says, "I know, let's blitz and play soft zone behind it so if the QB gets a beat of time, all the routes are going to be in rhythm!" This is tactically beyond stupid.  Manusky only looks ok because he's being compared to Barry and Haz, who both were probably the worst DCs in the league.  We moved up 5 or 7 spots. WOOHOO.  Manusky isn't as bad as those 2.  But he's not even remotely in the top half of the league.  Part of Jay's problem is he surrounds himself with average coaches.  Cavanaugh as OC to replace McVay? Really?  There are a few good coaches on the team.  What's his name, the DL coach is really good.

 

As BMitch said, it's "too damn late in the season for them to not be on the same page."  This is the absolute worst Alex Smith has ever looked as a starter, by miles.  The difference?  Harbaugh and Reid are good coaches, Gruden is not. He also said that the 'Skins were out-coached and out-schemed all day. 

 

At the end of the day, Bruce is the biggest problem, and the whole handling of the QB situation is a firable offense for Bruce just as hiring Joe Barry was for Jay.  However, the fact that Bruce is a bum doesn't in any way change the fact that Jay is also a horrible head coach.  He might be a great designer of a pass offense.  He is an ok OC, but an awful HC.

 

The results are in.  It's not going to get better.  You can point to roster, you can point to injury, and blame Bruce, injuries, Dan for the culture, and personnel.  But none of it really is going to make up for the fact Jay is a bad head coach. 

 

They're probably going to lose the next 2 games, because Tampa and Houston can both put up points in bunches, and the 'Skins can't. 

 

They could still win the division if they can beat the Giants and Cowboys and split with the Eagles, and back into the playoffs. But that still won't change the fact Jay is a play not to lose, gutless wonder on a head coach. 

 

EDIT: I've also changed my mind.  I was saying that as long as Bruce stayed, there was no reason to fire Gruden.  I'm past it at this point.  He's such a liability at this point, even if Bruce stays, Jay has to go.  You can't fire him with a winning record, but if they lose the next 2 to get to 5-5, I'd be completely fine with firing him at 5-5.  Promote Tomsula to interim HC and see what happens.

 

 

[skinzplay]

Yep, dude is routinely out-coached and hasn't shown any ability to make effective use of the best talent on the roster. Too much wasted time trying to show that he's right (either in terms of advocating for a particular player or in terms of his offensive scheme eventually bearing fruit). If I were the owner, he's canned before the season is over so the search can begin early. Brewer was right in his latest column -- regression of strengths is more likely than improvement of weaknesses. When that's the read on your HC, your team is in trouble. There might be flashes here and there, but no sustained success (and certainly no real development of your youngsters) is gonna be realized.

[Reaper Skins]

Am I crazy to think that they're building this roster entirely to entice Saban to come here once Gruden's contract is up?  Could they have something worked out behind the scenes to drop Allen/Gruden in the offseason and usher in the Schaffer/Smith/Saban era?

 

Last few press conferences seems like Gruden is just treading water and going through the motions, almost like he already knows he isn't in the team's long term plans.  And Allen's responsibilities have been slowly given away to others over the last few seasons.

[88Comrade2000]

41 minutes ago, Reaper Skins said:

Am I crazy to think that they're building this roster entirely to entice Saban to come here once Gruden's contract is up?  Could they have something worked out behind the scenes to drop Allen/Gruden in the offseason and usher in the Schaffer/Smith/Saban era?

 

Last few press conferences seems like Gruden is just treading water and going through the motions, almost like he already knows he isn't in the team's long term plans.  And Allen's responsibilities have been slowly given away to others over the last few seasons.

Why on earth would Saban leave Alabama for us?

[skinfan2k]

15 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

You assume we win 10 games, sometthhing Jay has never done.

 

Any team with offense than can score points, can beat us.

 

@ Tampa Bay- They scored 28 points in losing to Carolina.  If they can score 28 points against us, they will beat us.   That game is a tossup.

Houston - They are rolling right now, I'd expect them to beat us.

@Dallas-  The Skins lose more often than win on Thanksgiving vs Dallas.

 

We could easily be 5-6 after that stretch of games.

 

@ Eagles- Odds are this is a loss, especially if the Eagles have rebounded and 7-5/8-4 when we face them.

@Jags- Probably a win here, they are mess.

@Titans- Tossup.

Eagles- depends on what the record for both teams are going in. Tossup.

 

10-6 is possible but with this team, 9-7/8-8 seems more likely.

no one is assuming anything.  people dont' understand how 10-6 works. You actually lose 6 games.  You dont play like u are 16-0 and go 10-6.  

 

Jay has never done 10 games because this organization is a disaster. winning 7 games last year was amazing with the amount of injuries. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

Not sure I’m understanding the whole “you actually lose 6 games” thing when talking about 10-6. Like...yeah, obviously that’s 6 losses ?  what’s the point in stating that?

 

if anyone wants to kindly explain this to me, go ahead  and yes, i do mean that sincerely. 

[dcdiscokid]

My biggest issue with this banter, is there is very little difference between NFL teams, they all have good players. The ones who continually do bad, us, bills, browns, raiders are more related to the culture in organization then any x's and o's or calling a timeout at the right time.  This is where I kind of give Jay a break, he is fighting an uphill battle rather than going downhill. And honestly unless and possibly even if you do backup brinks truck why the hell would you want to coach here, he may be best we can get... The front office needs fixed to run like a professional football organization before we decide what needs done with coach.

[joeken24]

I'll tell you this, and you can take it for what its worth.

 

Belichick, Payton, Pederson, Reid, Nagy, McVay, Zimmer and even Tomlin would have this team running much more efficient and consistent.

 

I say that to say, Gruden is a coordinator. Not a head coach. We all know about Belichick. But here's a couple things McVay implemented when he got to LA:

 

1. No “Victory Mondays,” (a staple under the loser Jeff Fisher that rewarded players with easier days following wins).

2. This from a player talking about practice: "If it’s not right, they’re going to re-run it to get it right, to make it perfect."

3. "He has a standard, and it’s pretty high in terms of precise football execution," Rams general manager Les Snead said. "He demands it, but it’s an authentic way of demanding it. He doesn't come across negative or oppressive.”

 

Does anyone think Gruden runs the team like this? I don't.

Does it look like this team lacks the ability to execute a game plan? Yes. They must not be perfecting it in practice.

 

So now when players say they had a good day of practice, I take that as a bad sign. I'd rather hear a player say they hated practice. That tells me the coach is doing his ****ing job. This place has always struck me as club med. The mere fact that a player complained about practice tells it all. Gruden came in with his stubborn, sarcastic, aloof, self deprecating ass and didn't instill the most important trait in this team - discipline.

 

BTW, after what we've seen thus far in Gruden's time here, this interview is kinda hilarious.  Also, what is Gruden doing with his finger at 9:58 mark?

Gruden's answer to the question at the 12:06 mark could be deemed a failure IMO:

 

[kingdaddy]

"A good coach gets average players to be good players and good players to be great players".

Bum Phillips

 

Can we honestly say this quote applies to Jay? 

Also, through 8 games we have some overpaid dead weight on this team that will be easy off-season calls. Rather than be leaders they are part of the problem. Yes, I'm talking about Jordan Reed and Josh Norman. Here we are in 1st place and the two of them come up small rather than making plays. Norman is awful and Reed is just plain finished.

Bottom line, we need a fresh approach on offense with more creativity. The Eagles had devastating injuries last year at key positions and still won the SB. Jay must go if this season falls apart.

 

[TouchdownSkin]

Gruden is a bad coach.  His play calling is horrible, his teams come out flat on big games, and he has no idea how to make adjustments.  I hope this is the last season I see his befuddled look on the sidelines, while I am screaming to make a change...do something.

[PotomacGator]

He’s certainly not the worst coach but the reality is we will never win anything of substance with Gruden. His teams are often unprepared and any time we take a few punches from opponents he starts with the deer in the headlights look.

[joeken24]

1 hour ago, PotomacGator said:

He’s certainly not the worst coach but the reality is we will never win anything of substance with Gruden. His teams are often unprepared and any time we take a few punches from opponents he starts with the deer in the headlights look.

He acts like being down by 7 is down by 21. Ever notice how the run game plan changes if the opponent scores first. Its not the players. Its the ****ing coach that gets tight. All these guys that's played for other teams, there is no way all of them suddenly become bums when they get here and get down by 7 ****ing points. Ask a Cincinnati Bengals fan when the **** happened in the Nati with Gruden. I actually thought he would learn from that time. But again, he's a stubborn dude just like his ****ing brother. And again, he'll be coordinating for his brother next year. At least I hope.

Its time to bring in someone from the Reid tree. I'd say from the Parcell tree but ironically Gruden is indirectly connected to Parcell by way of Marvin Lewis (who sucks).

For what its worth:

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/22235093/connecting-all-2018-nfl-head-coaches-bill-parcells-bill-belichick

 

[NickyJ]

15 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

EDIT: I've also changed my mind.  I was saying that as long as Bruce stayed, there was no reason to fire Gruden.  I'm past it at this point.  He's such a liability at this point, even if Bruce stays, Jay has to go.  You can't fire him with a winning record, but if they lose the next 2 to get to 5-5, I'd be completely fine with firing him at 5-5.  Promote Tomsula to interim HC and see what happens.

 

I wouldn't promote Tomsula. The 49ers were a train wreck when they had him replace Harbaugh. Tomsula has not proven that he can be more than a positional coach. If I had to pick someone, I'd pick Manusky. Not a great coordinator, but hopefully more inspired than Gruden is. Either situation would leave Cavanaugh calling offenses though, which scares me lol

 

Actually, I take that back. Cavanaugh was the offensive coordinator for the Ravens when Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl. Sign me up lol

[88Comrade2000]

Even if the Skins makes the playoffs, Gruden needs to go.

 

Here's the potential competition for head coach in the offseason:

 

Dallas, New York Jets, Baltimore,  Cleveland , Tampa Bay, Denver

 

Cleveland, NY Jets and Baltimore 

are better opportunities than us.

 

These teams may consider a change:

 

Miami, New York Giants,  Pittsburgh,  Green Bay, Jacksonville, Arizona

 

All but Miami are better options than us.

[skinzplay]

7 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

"A good coach gets average players to be good players and good players to be great players".

Bum Phillips

 

Can we honestly say this quote applies to Jay? 

Bottom line, we need a fresh approach on offense with more creativity. The Eagles had devastating injuries last year at key positions and still won the SB. Jay must go if this season falls apart.

 

 

I'm with you here. And I'll go back to Brewer's quote from his post-Falcons game column: "A regression of strengths is more likely than a substantial improvement of weaknesses". That's a stinging indictment of this coach and his approach. Escort him to the door.

 

I don't want to hear anything about injuries. Teams suffer that every season. As you pointed out the Eagles lost their franchise quarterback, and suffered other significant losses-by-injury and still won the big one. You acquire quality depth behind your starters. If you don't, you're not doing your job.

[RedskinsLegacy]

On 11/4/2018 at 8:12 PM, Thirtyfive2seven said:

I think he's a decent coach and given absolute crap for talent.  Alex Smith vs. Kirk Cousins.  Why did Cousins want out? Bruce Allen

The rest of the draft picks and free agency moves all fall to him or people he somehow gets to be place holders so he can avoid blame.  Everything goes back to Allen IMO.  Who hired this leftover Tampa Bay staff?  Allen.  Who thought it was a good idea to part ways with both Jackson and Garcon and leave the team with NOTHING at WR?  Allen.  Gruden does the best he can do with the crap talent on this roster.

 

Just read some comments about the Saints Rams game.  McVay.  Great decision there Brucy.

This right here! We will never have a Super Bowl contender under the direction of Bruce Allen. The man has no clue that it takes talent to be a winner in this league, not any pedestrian who works cheap.