Will Cousins Play For The Skins In 2018

[wolfsire]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That's fine and all, but you didn't really say any of that in the post I quoted.

 

Perhaps you should redirect your angst to the owner and FO that created this scenario though.  Just a thought...

Why would I do that? I'm not sure he's worth 20 million a year. I'm with Snyder and Allen.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, wolfsire said:

Why would I do that? I'm not sure he's worth 20 million a year. I'm with Snyder and Allen.

Snyder and Allen paid him 20 & 24 million the past two seasons.  So tell me more about how you're with them.

 

Im not in the least surprised that you missed my point entirely.  This precious, "valued" franchise is grossly under .500 in both Snyder and Allens tenures here.  They were making poor decisions well before Kirk ever got here and their bad decisions are why the team has paid Kirk 44M over the past two seasons.

[wolfsire]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Snyder and Allen paid him 20 & 24 million the past two seasons.  So tell me more about how you're with them.

 

Im not in the least surprised that you missed my point entirely.  This precious, "valued" franchise is grossly under .500 in both Snyder and Allens tenures here.  They were making poor decisions well before Kirk ever got here and their bad decisions are why the team has paid Kirk 44M over the past two seasons.

 I have been against the long term deal from the start. He's not an elite talent and I was all for trading him two years ago. I don't blame management for not committing long term. He needs a lot of help to get the job done and crumbles under big pressure.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

There is a lot of factual information in the Cousins threads.  By factual information, I mean actual stats that invalidate your opinion. Not only about Cousins, but about the myths that the great QBs carry teams to the promise land.  

 

With that aside, I can't help but scratch my head that a guy that's been a fan long enough to attend parades, hasn't seen enough of the Dan Snyder regime to determine that the teams problems are much deeper than any player or coach.

 

 

[NoVaSkins21]

Looking back at yesterday, if Denver had a decent QB running their offense, who knows where they would be right now.  If I was John Elway right now, I would seriously take a hard look at making a run at Cousins no matter what the cost is.  He's done it before with Manning and it paid off.  IMO, that shows how much a having a decent QB can make a difference between being a serious contender and a cellar dweller 

[wolfsire]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

There is a lot of factual information in the Cousins threads.  By factual information, I mean actual stats that invalidate your opinion. Not only about Cousins, but about the myths that the great QBs carry teams to the promise land.  

 

With that aside, I can't help but scratch my head that a guy that's been a fan long enough to attend parades, hasn't seen enough of the Dan Snyder regime to determine that the teams problems are much deeper than any player or coach.

 

 

We've been drafting well. Injuries hit us hard this year at a bad time on D. I think Jay cost us against KC with conservative play-calling and that loss really hurt us after coming out and controlling the game to start with. Kind of the same deal against NO. Personally, I think we should move on from Crowder as he can't be counted on.

[A Skinhead in Saints Land]

Sign him to a long term deal or let him walk Why even tag him? It will eat up so much cap there is no way we can field a competitive team. 

 

What this team cannot have is another legitimate year in limbo, and that exactly what tagging Cousins will accomplish. Let him walk and build for whatever future this ****ty FO can build. 

 

If divorce is inevitable, then cut the cord. Don't drag it on for another long, more expensive year. 

[Veryoldschool]

Another media report about Kirk's prospects with Denver.

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/80714/loss-hurts-but-some-broncos-liked-what-they-saw-from-kirk-cousins

 

 

 

[Veryoldschool]

And another one.  This guy from the Mile High Report is salivating over Cousins.  Did his homework also.

 

https://www.milehighreport.com/2017/12/25/16815566/what-if-the-broncos-sign-kirk-cousins

[mistertim]

55 minutes ago, SAli457180 said:

Looking back at yesterday, if Denver had a decent QB running their offense, who knows where they would be right now.  If I was John Elway right now, I would seriously take a hard look at making a run at Cousins no matter what the cost is.  He's done it before with Manning and it paid off.  IMO, that shows how much a having a decent QB can make a difference between being a serious contender and a cellar dweller 

 

Denver's supporting offensive cast isn't really better than ours. They have a better RB but their OL is mediocre at best, especially in pass protection, and they have one good WR but the rest are JAGs. We're not talking about an offense full of pro bowlers who just need a decent QB to go all the way. They also have tons of money invested in their defensive players and very little cap room already which means if they give Kirk the kind of contract he wants they'll have to make sacrifices by jettisoning some of their other top talent which means their offense might get a bit better with Kirk, but their defense will probably suffer by the same amount.

 

And throwing a king's ransom at Peyton Manning is different than doing so for Kirk Cousins. Peyton was already a surefire first ballot HOFer and known as a QB who will instantly elevate everyone else around him. Kirk isn't Peyton Manning. The only risks with Peyton were his age and whether or not his injury had fully healed. Not sure Elway would throw money like that at Kirk in their current situation. He might elect to draft a cheap young rookie high and develop him. A cheap rookie will allow him to still hold on to other pieces of his team and add more as needed.

 

Elway might like to have him, but I think the contract he would offer would not be what Kirk wants.

[Rufus T Firefly]

18 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Denver's supporting offensive cast isn't really better than ours. They have a better RB but their OL is mediocre at best, especially in pass protection, and they have one good WR but the rest are JAGs. We're not talking about an offense full of pro bowlers who just need a decent QB to go all the way. They also have tons of money invested in their defensive players and very little cap room already which means if they give Kirk the kind of contract he wants they'll have to make sacrifices by jettisoning some of their other top talent which means their offense might get a bit better with Kirk, but their defense will probably suffer by the same amount.

 

And throwing a king's ransom at Peyton Manning is different than doing so for Kirk Cousins. Peyton was already a surefire first ballot HOFer and known as a QB who will instantly elevate everyone else around him. Kirk isn't Peyton Manning. The only risks with Peyton were his age and whether or not his injury had fully healed. Not sure Elway would throw money like that at Kirk in their current situation. He might elect to draft a cheap young rookie high and develop him. A cheap rookie will allow him to still hold on to other pieces of his team and add more as needed.

 

Elway might like to have him, but I think the contract he would offer would not be what Kirk wants.

 

1. Sanders is more than a JAG. 

2. Denver is in pretty good cap shape. They have no big FA issues to deal with the next couple of years. They have plenty of contracts they can re-do if they need cap space. At most, they'd have to let Roby go. They don't have to let their defense, o anything else, fall apart to go after Cousins. 

3. The appeal for Cousins, and motivation for Elway, would be the defense, which is championship-level. They don't need the Peyton Manning Always signed. They won a title with a very different Manning.

4. If he drafts his next QB, he might as well go ahead and star rebuilding. People can freak out all they want about guys like Wentz and Goff, but it borders on impossible to win a title with a QB in his first couple of years in the league. Look at the age of Denver's D and WRs. Their window won't be open long enough to wait on a rookie to develop. 

 

[wit33]

Tag him and give everyone one more year to show they’re better than above average. 

[BurgundyBooger]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Denver's supporting offensive cast isn't really better than ours. They have a better RB but their OL is mediocre at best, especially in pass protection, and they have one good WR but the rest are JAGs. We're not talking about an offense full of pro bowlers who just need a decent QB to go all the way. They also have tons of money invested in their defensive players and very little cap room already which means if they give Kirk the kind of contract he wants they'll have to make sacrifices by jettisoning some of their other top talent which means their offense might get a bit better with Kirk, but their defense will probably suffer by the same amount.

 

Denver can afford Kirk if they wanted him and have enough to give him sufficient support.

 

In addition to that, Elway is capable of analyzing Kirk's strengths and weaknesses as a QB. He'll fit him with the right coordinator and facilitate the best system compatible with Kirk's abilities, like he did with Peyton. Furthermore Kirk could rest at ease knowing the Denver FO isn't a complete cluster****. To wake up every morning to work refreshed knowing upper management isn't comprised of braindeads is worth a modest salary cut itself.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

 

1. Sanders is more than a JAG. 

2. Denver is in pretty good cap shape. They have no big FA issues to deal with the next couple of years. They have plenty of contracts they can re-do if they need cap space. At most, they'd have to let Roby go. They don't have to let their defense, o anything else, fall apart to go after Cousins. 

3. The appeal for Cousins, and motivation for Elway, would be the defense, which is championship-level. They don't need the Peyton Manning Always signed. They won a title with a very different Manning.

4. If he drafts his next QB, he might as well go ahead and star rebuilding. People can freak out all they want about guys like Wentz and Goff, but it borders on impossible to win a title with a QB in his first couple of years in the league. Look at the age of Denver's D and WRs. Their window won't be open long enough to wait on a rookie to develop. 

 

 

True, Sanders isn't necessarily a JAG, forgot about him. No they don't have any immediate impending FA issues but they will in the next year or two and as far as their cap space it isn't in good shape as it is currently. They would have to do a lot of restructuring of contracts to make up the room to sign Kirk and those restructurings obviously require the agreement of the players in question. Von Miller may like Cousins but with his contract history I don't see him being a guy who's going to give a big discount to bring someone else in. 

 

With FA issues in the next year or two and the fact that, as you noted, their window won't be open very long, Elway would have to be absolutely convinced that Kirk could win them a SB within the next couple of years in order to spend that sort of money on him. After that they'll undoubtedly have lost some of their defensive talent and others will have contract issues and be getting older. An elite level defense with pretty much all the pieces in place that can carry your team if need be will only last so long these days unless you get insanely lucky with draft picks (like the Ravens for example). So that will be Elway's conundrum if he actually does really want Kirk...can this guy absolutely win me a SB within the next 2-3 years?

 

Going elsewhere would also mean a brand new playbook and new players to gel with and Kirk seems to need some time to get on the same page as others and we know that he's a rhythm passer who feels best when he knows the playbook inside and out; yes he's gotten a bit better this year at improvising but IMO he's still generally a "paint by numbers" guy who needs things to be very regimented and ordered to really thrive. He isn't a Peyton Manning who can take a look at the defense and just immediately dial something up at the LOS or a Rodgers or Big Ben who can just improvise a ton on the fly, or a Brady who you could throw in any group of guys a couple days before a game and he'd still make it work. I just don't see him as a "plug and play" kind of guy unless they're planning on simply asking him to make a play here and there but mostly not make mistakes and they'll rely on their defense. If that's the case they could probably do that with someone else who wouldn't be demanding to be the highest paid QB in the league. Heck, they might be able to do that with a good rookie.

 

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Denver can move the cap space around. Maybe Elway really does think Kirk is elite and can bring them an almost immediate SB. Maybe they'll give Kirk a blockbuster deal and he'll go on to win a SB. If so, good on him. I just personally don't find the situation all that likely right now. Remember, there were TONS of rumblings about how SF was all in on Kirk and how they were going to break the bank for him because Shanny Jr loved him so much. Then they suddenly give up a high 2nd round pick for Jimmy G. We never know what's going to happen and the rumor mill is just that and ends up being wrong just as often as it is right. Just because Von Miller likes Kirk and some Denver sports writers think he'd be a good fit doesn't really mean much as we have absolutely no clue what is going on in the minds of the people who actually make the decisions. For all we know Elway could be completely uninterested in Kirk unless he gets him for a mid-size deal. 

[sjinhan]

On 12/25/2017 at 5:17 AM, bobandweave said:

 

 

Continuing the discussion about the contract, what are NFL teams getting out of paying a QB top money? Is it worth it?

 

Stafford the highest priced QB in the league missed the playoffs again

 

Carr the second highest paid QB missed the playoffs again 

 

Luck the third highest paid QB missed the playoffs again

 

In fact only Drew Brees made the playoffs from the top five earners this year (Cousins was the 5th highest earner this year) and make what you will about how the Saints got there this year and how much of that is on Brees vs the running game

 

Truth is out of the top ten earners this year only Brees and Ben Roethlisberger have punched their teams playoff tickets with only one game left in the season this year.

 

I like your take on this but if you are taking a snap shot of the top QB earners for this year then you are using skewed stats.

 

The better data set you need to use is when the LTD contract is signed what position it placed $$$ pecking order placed that QB on the day the contract was signed.   Only reason Ryan, Flacco, Brady, Rodgers are not in top 5 because over time new deals got signed.  Your top 5 this year won’t be in top 5 in few years after more QBs sign new LTDs.

 

take out the rookie deals then you will find almost any QB that is decent signed for Top 5 money when it was their time for LTD.

[Darrell Green Fan]

16 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Well, Flacco isn't a great QB but he has won multiple playoff games in multiple years, including a SB and has played well in them. So its proven that he can play well under the pressure of the bright lights in big game situations. Despite being a better overall QB statistically, that's something that Kirk has never proven he can do which is and has been one of the knocks on him. He laid an egg in his one playoff appearance, laid an egg against a Giants team that wasn't even playing half of their starters last year in a must win game that would have sent us to the playoffs, laid an egg 2 games prior against the Panthers that would have done the same. He's also 0-9 as a starter on weekday games and 0-6 on Monday Night Football. I realize its a team sport but c'mon...that's a worrying thing when you're talking about paying a guy a record breaking contract. 

 

Yeah I get all that and I share the concern. .  But your point was Flacco didn't live up to his contract and as a result the Ravens had to cut players and that created losing seasons.  My point is Kirk is much better than Flacco and has not really been given the chance to play in as many big games.  I don't see him having a lot of Flacco games of 12-27-156-2.  Kirk showed this season that he can still put up good numbers while overcoming huge shortfalls on the roster.  

16 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Well, Flacco isn't a great QB but he has won multiple playoff games in multiple years, including a SB and has played well in them. So its proven that he can play well under the pressure of the bright lights in big game situations. Despite being a better overall QB statistically, that's something that Kirk has never proven he can do which is and has been one of the knocks on him. He laid an egg in his one playoff appearance, laid an egg against a Giants team that wasn't even playing half of their starters last year in a must win game that would have sent us to the playoffs, laid an egg 2 games prior against the Panthers that would have done the same. He's also 0-9 as a starter on weekday games and 0-6 on Monday Night Football. I realize its a team sport but c'mon...that's a worrying thing when you're talking about paying a guy a record breaking contract. 

 

Yeah I get all that and I share the concern. .  But your point was Flacco didn't live up to his contract and as a result the Ravens had to cut players and that created losing seasons.  My point is Kirk is much better than Flacco and has not really been given the chance to play in as many big games.  I don't see him having a lot of Flacco games of 12-27-156-2.  Kirk showed this season that he can still put up good numbers while overcoming huge shortfalls on the roster.  

[Skinsinparadise]

On 12/24/2017 at 8:05 PM, NoCalMike said:

 

And therein lies the rub....what is considered "fair market value."  Some fans on here think 25 is the ceiling....others say whatever Cousins is asking for is fair market value.  I fall in between.  Who is correct?

 

I don't recall anyone saying whatever Kirk is asking for is fair market value.  The numbers circle around what is the most current raise from the last QB that got paid.  At this point, I gather we are at about 27-28 million a year or somewhere near that -- 80-100 million guaranteed.  That's a step up from the Luck, Stafford, Carr contracts but not a mile up.

 

Bruce/Dan keep letting the market rise with each passing year, raising the values of the properties in the neighborhood so to speak.  My guess is they tag him at 34 million and change and then sell us that Kirk didn't want to take their below market deal so they did their best to secure them long term.  They don't want to buy the house with a mortgage of $3000 a month.  They'd rather rent at $3500 a month and earn no equity in the house.  

 

People can talk all day long about Kirk not wanting to be here.  But I don't think we will have any clue one way or another until Bruce/Dan actually offer the Zillow price of the property versus trying to get it at a discount.  What doubles the madness is Kirk and his agent is at this point is being told on every NFL program under the sun that they could get even more than the Zillow price.  

[purbeast]

I was just listening to the Junks talking with Mike Jones and it was pretty amusing to hear such an obvious question come up and then the answer.  They were discussing how this is a unique situation and has never happened in the NFL where a QB that is basically in his prime almost playing 3 probowl type years of football in a row is going to be on the market and he WILL get paid on the market...

 

EB: "If these other teams out there are willing to pay him a large contract and value him, WHY WONT THE REDSKINS DO IT?!?!?"

 

MJ: "Look at who is in charge of these other teams - John Elway, Tom Coughlin - they are smart football people who have been to and won Super Bowls.  Then look at the Redskins - what is their track record?  We don't have smart football people here."

 

I thought that about summed up everything, and it kind of sums up a lot of the fanbase too who think we will be just fine without KC and that he's not worth paying.

 

As I've mentioned previously, if we offer him the tag, there is 0% chance he signs any LTD with us and he's gone.  They need to be on their hands and knees with a must-sign contract offer next Sunday after the Giants game while they are in the locker room, begging KC to sign it.

[Burgold]

To recap my positions:

I thought it was reasonable to put Cousins on a franchise tag after coming on strong at the end of his first year starting. We've seen too many QBs have a really great six game run that turned out to be fool's gold. However, if you are going to say to a player "prove it" and they do then you have to pay up.

 

I thought it was unreasonable to put Cousins on a franchise tag for a second year. It seemed pretty predetermined and neither side really wanted to dance. Cousins proved himself, he won the bet, and the Redskins needed to man up. They needed to court him and to a degree blow him away. I think the the Redskins offered a fair opening bid expecting the usual contract dance, but Cousins' side didn't want to play. You can blame both sides and I do, but the majority of the blame goes to the Redskins front office.

 

Coming into 2018, I want a long term deal or no deal. At this point, gambling that Cousins will come back to Earth to save a few bucks on a contract is as bad as saying "We only want Cousins if he proves to be a bad quarterback" The Redskins at this point will be welchers if they don't offer Cousins a historic contract. They gambled twice and lost twice. That said, I still feel Kirk is only a very good QB and not a great one. I don't know that he's worth the contract that he fairly won. What I do know is that a one year rental is a losing recipe. If the front office doesn't believe it can build a winning team and pay Kirk a LTD or they just don't think Kirk is worth the money... then move on. Get Case Keenum. Get Teddy Bridgewater. Re-sign Rex Grossman. Go with Colt. Regardless, it's past time that the team laid their cards on the table. No more bluffing. No more calling to play for another hand. Place the bet and live or die with the results.

[markmills67]

I'll sure that myself and every other Redskins fanatic wants the cousin's situation sorted within days of the Giants game, like Burgold says above the longer we wait the more it affects our plans for 2018. 

 

P.S   If we re-sign Cousin's to a LTD, what the lowest cap figure we could get him to for 2018?.

 

HTTR 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

9 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

I'll sure that myself and every other Redskins fanatic wants the cousin's situation sorted within days of the Giants game, like Burgold says above the longer we wait the more it affects our plans for 2018. 

Most of us wanted that last year too.  But Bruce and the gang acted like emotional fans in that they couldn't roll out the red carpet for a guy that just lost a win-and-in.  Then sat on their hands and realized they couldn't walk into 2017 without a QB and placed the tag on Kirk.  That's simply not how you run a successful organization.  

[carex]

1 hour ago, purbeast said:

I was just listening to the Junks talking with Mike Jones and it was pretty amusing to hear such an obvious question come up and then the answer.  They were discussing how this is a unique situation and has never happened in the NFL where a QB that is basically in his prime almost playing 3 probowl type years of football in a row is going to be on the market and he WILL get paid on the market...

 

EB: "If these other teams out there are willing to pay him a large contract and value him, WHY WONT THE REDSKINS DO IT?!?!?"

 

MJ: "Look at who is in charge of these other teams - John Elway, Tom Coughlin - they are smart football people who have been to and won Super Bowls.  Then look at the Redskins - what is their track record?  We don't have smart football people here."

 

I thought that about summed up everything, and it kind of sums up a lot of the fanbase too who think we will be just fine without KC and that he's not worth paying.

 

As I've mentioned previously, if we offer him the tag, there is 0% chance he signs any LTD with us and he's gone.  They need to be on their hands and knees with a must-sign contract offer next Sunday after the Giants game while they are in the locker room, begging KC to sign it.

 

Elway has thrown money at Peyton Manning and drafted Osweiller, Paxton Lynch and Trevor Simian.  Tom Coughlin lucked into Eli Manning, and has a history of his teams collasping on him.  They're good, but they're not exactly geniuses

[purbeast]

4 minutes ago, carex said:

 

Elway has thrown money at Peyton Manning and drafted Osweiller, Paxton Lynch and Trevor Simian.  Tom Coughlin lucked into Eli Manning, and has a history of his teams collasping on him.  They're good, but they're not exactly geniuses

And I'd take "good but not genius" over Bruce Allen 1000000 out of 1000000 times.

[jujuskinsfan]

I seriously cannot believe that spending money on Cousins is even a debate... at this point, we just need to pay him whatever he wants. He has proved he is just below elite (very good?) with potential to be elite for one or even several games in a row. What more do we want from him? I guarantee you that if we let him walk, this team will suck *** for the next 10 years and will not find a QB nearly as good as Kirk Cousins. Our team is far from perfect right now, but you have to look at the big picture (injuries, coaching, etc...) He is our best shot to being consistently competitive and winning a championship in the next 7 years or so and it's not even close. When you have a QB that plays as well and consistent as he does, you hold on to him. You simply can't win in this league with an average to below average QB. That's my opinion anyway...  

[carex]

12 minutes ago, jujuskinsfan said:

I seriously cannot believe that spending money on Cousins is even a debate... at this point, we just need to pay him whatever he wants. He has proved he is just below elite (very good?) with potential to be elite for one or even several games in a row. What more do we want from him? I guarantee you that if we let him walk, this team will suck *** for the next 10 years and will not find a QB nearly as good as Kirk Cousins. Our team is far from perfect right now, but you have to look at the big picture (injuries, coaching, etc...) He is our best shot to being consistently competitive and winning a championship in the next 7 years or so and it's not even close. When you have a QB that plays as well and consistent as he does, you hold on to him. You simply can't win in this league with an average to below average QB. That's my opinion anyway...  

 

looking at the difference between talent from our 9-7 two years ago to our 7-9 or 8-8 this year I worry he's topped out and we'll be playing 35 million per year for years of just barely making or just barely missing the playoffs