The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[Wildbunny]

17 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Not a chance in the world one of those big names mentioned comes here with Bruce still in charge.  Don’t care how much money, it will not happen.  I think some of you guys seriously underestimate just how bad Bruce’s rep really is.  The only thing dude ever won was the ancestry lottery.

Did Bruce won or the lottery or did his ancestors lost it???

[Hooper]

Doesn’t seem like guys are exactly putting their bodies/careers on the line for Allen and Danny’s Skins does it? Can you blame them? Brandon S so clearly wants out he might as well be holding up a sign. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Keim is usually reluctant to take a shot like that  ditto Bullock.  So I guess the gloves are coming off all over the place.

,

 

 

 

 

[Andre The Giant]

 

[ntotoro]

12 minutes ago, Andre The Giant said:

 

 

In all fairness to the former Eagle GM, we don't know how Haskins will turn out. I just don't want Gruden's stench on him. Gruden has been more concerned with trying to win this season rather than groom a raw QB. He hasn't even really given Haskins any valuable preparation of any kind.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

 

In all fairness to the former Eagle GM, we don't know how Haskins will turn out. I just don't want Gruden's stench on him. Gruden has been more concerned with trying to win this season rather than groom a raw QB. He hasn't even really given Haskins any valuable preparation of any kind.

We really have no idea what kind of preparation he’s been provided, but going off your point, who’s fault is that?

 

A coach that has to win now provided with a maybe win later rookie QB, a journeyman, and a hobbled and limited dude he only likes because he knows his system.

 

It’s the perfect example and not the first, of how dysfunctional the Skins really are under the leadership of DanBruce.

[ntotoro]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

We really have no idea what kind of preparation he’s been provided, but going off your point, who’s fault is that?

 

A coach that has to win now provided with a maybe win later rookie QB, a journeyman, and a hobbled and limited dude he only likes because he knows his system.

 

It’s the perfect example and not the first, of how dysfunctional the Skins really are under the leadership of DanBruce.

 

It all needs to go from the top down. I've made that clear.

 

These days rookie QB's are the rarity when they sit back 2-3 seasons and wait for their chance. You have 4-5 years (depending whether you pick up that option year) for a 1st-round pick before that second contract comes. They have to know now. Haskins has needed to get time with the entire starting Offense so he becomes a known commodity to the team as a whole and figure out what to do with him. We do know at least he hasn't been getting the full-time reps with the starters and that Gruden hasn't wanted a prospect because he didn't want someone he had to groom. I know BMitch likes to talk a lot of ****, but his own observations have been about how the Haskins and Sweat have had zero preparation for NFL play throughout the summer.

 

Brudan is evil. Gruden and his tree just suck.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I guess I just don't see the point in making it about Jay being selfish or any of that jazz...

 

As I've said a bunch of times, there is stuff to critique Jay on for sure.  But this whole Haskins situation is not one of his own making nor do I believe he's obligated to spend his last days trying to prepare a really raw QB to win what are must-win games for him.  This is just a colossal mess created by the powers that be that both Jay and Haskins are merely pawns in.  

[ntotoro]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I guess I just don't see the point in making it about Jay being selfish or any of that jazz...

 

As I've said a bunch of times, there is stuff to critique Jay on for sure.  But this whole Haskins situation is not one of his own making nor do I believe he's obligated to spend his last days trying to prepare a really raw QB to win what are must-win games for him.  This is just a colossal mess created by the powers that be that both Jay and Haskins are merely pawns in.  

 

It goes back to what I said last week about things not being mutually exclusive. Jay is a symptom of the ****ty FO and management structure. They hired someone who has proven especially over the last several years to be not qualified to be an NFL HC. The next won't be any better unless the FO has a sincere change, but it doesn't excuse Jay for being so lousy.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

14 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

 

It goes back to what I said last week about things not being mutually exclusive. Jay is a symptom of the ****ty FO and management structure. They hired someone who has proven especially over the last several years to be not qualified to be an NFL HC. The next won't be any better unless the FO has a sincere change, but it doesn't excuse Jay for being so lousy.

Okay...and what does that have to do with the Haskins situation?  How is it in any way Jay's fault?

[ntotoro]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Okay...and what does that have to do with the Haskins situation?  How is it in any way Jay's fault?

 

I didn't say the situation was his fault, only that he didn't want to groom a QB in the interest of self-preservation. He had to know he was a dead man walking even before this season's preparation started. The situation starts at the top. Doesn't excuse Jay for all his other faults. These days in the salary cap and collective bargaining era, you can't afford to let a guy sit for 2-3 years to find out what he has. Jay had no interest in doing that with Haskins, knowing he was a short-timer. It's a bad situation all-around. The next HC won't be any better than Jay unless Bruce is gone and Dan just chooses to sit in his yacht with Kleenex boxes on his feet collecting jars of urine in his IMAX theater.

[Unbias]

1 minute ago, ntotoro said:

 

In all fairness to the former Eagle GM, we don't know how Haskins will turn out. I just don't want Gruden's stench on him. Gruden has been more concerned with trying to win this season rather than groom a raw QB. He hasn't even really given Haskins any valuable preparation of any kind.

 

I do agree with you, but I still think we botched the pick. Dan/Bruce knew Jay was entering the last year of his contract, so it's considered the 'dead duck' season. I'm assuming that they weren't confident in Jay enough to extend him that they were also thinking this could easily be his last year. 

 

Bruce/Dan drafted a QB with their first pick whom only had one season as a college starter and many felt needed a bit more time to develop. If they had any idea that Jay was going to be gone why would they draft someone with that profile knowing they will probably have a different coach along with learning a new system in his second season?

 

I mean, are they going to be picky on who they pick and say they need to go with Haskins? How does that impact the number of candidates when other teams either have an established vet or are offering the ability for the coach to pick their own starter? 

 

Anyway, I'm seeing a Josh Rosen situation potentially developing, where the players was drafted with the 10th overall player and based on a new staff they end up turning that pick into a second and a 5th rounder. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I could get my head around the move if Haskins doesn't show much and we end up with a new coaching group that's building things around Tua/Herbert, but its still a waste of a draft pick. The names that went after Haskins and before Sweat were Brian Burns, Dexter Lawrence, Garrett Bradbury, Jeffery Simmons, Noah Fant, Darnell Savage, Andre Dillard, Tytus Howard, Josh Jacobs and Marquise Brown. Those players could fit many schemes, so it might have been better to avoid picking a QB at that point. 

 

Anyway, I'm still backing Haskins, but if things don't work based on all the front office changes it will be hard not to say this was easily avoidable. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Yeah i know the stadium is far from a cure all.  But I don't love seeing my childhood team in shambles.  If they pull off a stadium in the district to me that would be a significant victory.     I watched them play in Arizona the previous season -- and yeah the Cardinals stunk which was good for us but yeah I got a kick out of that stadium.  Especially if we are losing it would be nice to do it in style versus in a dump.  😀  

 

 

 

But she did go on to specify that she wants to see a new stadium on the RFK site someday, even if she did deliver a playful jab at Snyder’s 0-4 squad in the process.

“We’re not going to chase them down and we’d like them be winners when they come,” Bowser said. "We don't feel like we’re in the position to beg for this type of development. We have a great site, we think the best site in the region. And when the time is right, we’re going to make sure the site is activated.”

 

The District took one major step in that direction last month, rolling out plans to tear down the old stadium by 2021. However, Bowser’s staffers insisted at the time the decision was not linked to any ongoing negotiations with the team, and had more to do with setting up the massive property for mixed-use development down the line.

Bowser played similarly coy Friday, declining to say whether she’d spoken with Snyder recently. "Any discussions I have, I will let you know at the appropriate time,” she said.

 

But she did continue to tout the site’s potential for a mix of housing, open space and other amenities going forward, and said the city is "planning the next phase for RFK, with or without a stadium.” That will require wresting control of it from the feds first — Bowser worked with Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton to introduce a bill in Congress transferring the property to the city’s ownership, but that’s stalled in the divided chamber.

"I think there’s a lot of latent support in the city, even in their current condition, to get behind the team,” said former D.C. Mayor Anthony Williams, who helped lead the District’s bid to snag a Major League Baseball team during his tenure.

[BurgundyBooger]

Bowser is a 5th or 6th generation Washingtonian whose perception of the Redskins worth to today's District residents is muddied with nostalgic sentiment. Perhaps had the team been entombed from the public all these years there'd be a sort of mystique attached to it to rouse the curiosity and historic indulgence of her present-day voters, enough so to rally their support, but the franchise has been around and been a joke and been the target of many criticisms that attack the sensibilities of current residents so unless she can achieve the impossible feat of siphoning PG county support in any meaningful way then this whole affair is a waste of time.

[FrFan]

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

11 hours ago, BurgundyBooger said:

Bowser is a 5th or 6th generation Washingtonian whose perception of the Redskins worth to today's District residents is muddied with nostalgic sentiment. Perhaps had the team been entombed from the public all these years there'd be a sort of mystique attached to it to rouse the curiosity and historic indulgence of her present-day voters, enough so to rally their support, but the franchise has been around and been a joke and been the target of many criticisms that attack the sensibilities of current residents so unless she can achieve the impossible feat of siphoning PG county support in any meaningful way then this whole affair is a waste of time.

 

How much you wanna bet she requested more than a few internal polls be conducted to gauge the reception of bringing the Redskins back to within DC? Politicians live and die by polls and trial balloons. She's fully aware.

[veteranskinsfan]

If any local politicians have any brains left they will not help the Danny find a landing spot for his shiny new toy.  Instead if all 3 local jurisdictions close the door on him

then he will be forced to sell the team to a new group of owners.  In the NBA the old owner of the Warriors had been this clown who had owned Safeway.  The franchise

went down hill  for 20 years and then new owners bought the team and within a few years starting drafting well- i.e. Steph Curry, Draymond Green and Klsy Thompson so before you knew it they had captured several NBA championships.   The fans of the metropolitan area and all Redskins fans everywhere deserve a new start with a new ownership group.

[Stone Cold]

it’s the culture.  Culture is what prevents losing streaks.  It’s what says “we just lost to the worst team in the league, but it’s ok cuz we’re still gonna whoop some ass”.  We don’t have that.  We lose and it snowballs.  Drafting fixes that.  We haven’t been drafting long enough.  We’re 2 good drafts away from having enough depth to be competitive annually.  FAs are cool and all but they augment and put your team over the top.  We’re suffering from years of selling picks for FAs.  Gonna take time to rebuild the right way.  My fear...THIS is the window.  We have good 26> talent but a lame duck coach and/front office.  We can not swing and miss with the coaching change this time or we’ll find ourselves here again in 5 years.  Whoever it is dan brings in...if we want perpetual competitive seasons with realistic playoff expectations...that person HAS to be allowed to develop with our youth movement and hopefully whatever young talent we continue to draft

[wit33]

14 minutes ago, Stone Cold said:

it’s the culture.  Culture is what prevents losing streaks.  It’s what says “we just lost to the worst team in the league, but it’s ok cuz we’re still gonna whoop some ass”.  We don’t have that.  We lose and it snowballs.  Drafting fixes that.  We haven’t been drafting long enough.  We’re 2 good drafts away from having enough depth to be competitive annually.  FAs are cool and all but they augment and put your team over the top.  We’re suffering from years of selling picks for FAs.  Gonna take time to rebuild the right way.  My fear...THIS is the window.  We have good 26> talent but a lame duck coach and/front office.  We can not swing and miss with the coaching change this time or we’ll find ourselves here again in 5 years.  Whoever it is dan brings in...if we want perpetual competitive seasons with realistic playoff expectations...that person HAS to be allowed to develop with our youth movement and hopefully whatever young talent we continue to draft

 

—Skins have ZERO culture. Hate it, because I value this so much.—

 

I agree changes need to be made, but everything you’ve shared is being done. The team has been competitive and a horrific collapse of a last game (against Giants) from two consecutive playoff season a short time ago. One certainly can argue (I agree at this stage and want a change) the level of execution and inability by this regime to get to next level of being a great team. 

 

Personally, I judge FOs differently based on their QB situation, the Skins have not had a franchise game changing QB since RG3 (not surprisingly the expectations were sky high, even Super Bowl, during his rookie season). With RG3 it still required elite coaching from standpoint of adapting a

scheme that worked for RG3. Once RG3 proved self to not be the long term guy, the Skins transitioned to an average 10-25 type   and average seasons were the norm, but not bad. Last season, the Skins start 6-3 with an average, but strong leader in Smith and team was average. Keenum is below average and inconsistent and team starts terribly. Truly not claiming it to be directly correlated, but the QB spot for the Skins has been a huge part of it all. 

 

For example, Ballard the new can do no wrong GM expectations should be much different without Luck. A sleeper Super Bowl type team to an average hope to make playoffs team. Nothing the GM did wrong, just the nature of the NFL and not having an elite QB.

 

***Side note: I love me some Brisset and wanted Skins to bring him in over Alex Smith. Will not surprised if produces a playoff run for Colts. He very much reminds me of Alex Smith on and off the field. 

 

 

Long way of saying theres a recent correlation of who’s at QB and Redskins being competitive. This is no longer an overwhelming excuse for me to not make a change though. 

[joeken24]

First off let me say that Gruden strikes me as a football guy. On that I like him. I just don't like him as a head football guy. Most of that opinion comes from his approach. I'm more of a Belichick/disciplinary type guy at the head coaching position. Fact is, I would have loved Gregg William as a head coach. Of course that would have never happened due to the dumpster fire in the front office - namely Bruce. I truly think he has been given full reign to run things and Dan is much more hands off now a days. But Damien speaks on it and I tend to agree with him as it relates to how Gruden is handling things. As a matter of fact, based on some of Grudens little shots during his pressers (like saying whatever decision he makes will be wrong) he's worried about outside noise and probably inside noise. Gruden strikes me as an open book type of guy. As much as he tries to be clandestine, he can't help himself because he's also sarcastic. So my point is that Gruden is a part of the dumpster fire. Had he come in from a winning culture and set the tone early from discipline standpoint, I don't believe you'd see him playing nipple pinching with DJ. You don't see him getting carried by James Harrison. You don't see this recent **** video. You don't see the wishy washy interviews about who's playing QB.

Ultimately, you don't hire him in the first place. So get rid of Bruce.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

@joeken24 Bruce has nothing to do with Gregg not getting the HC job. He wasn’t here in 2008 when Gregg interviewed for it.  That was Dan and Vinny.  

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

Long way of saying theres a recent correlation of who’s at QB and Redskins being competitive. This is no longer an overwhelming excuse for me to not make a change though. 

 

I mostly agree.  But I'd give them a bigger break if they built an elite unit from time to time or found elite players. Like Dallas with their O line.  The Bears with their defensive unit.  And plenty of other examples of that.  That doesn't really happen here.  

 

I've been on the record that their college scouting is good maybe even very good-- I am not sure about great just yet.  The pro personnel IMO is mediocre to awful depending on the off season.  It averages IMO to mediocre.  We look less than mediocre this season lol so maybe the national media got it right this off season about this roster.  

 

I do think you can overcome a mediocre roster or for that matter even a bad culture with a great QB.  I got my doubts about whether a good QB is enough.  The Alex 6-4 run was mostly wins against bad teams, a hobbled GB being the exception.    Nothing special IMO.  They've had their streaks here and there similar to that.  They were also 6-3 to start the 2016 season.  But agree with a QB like Alex or Kirk or name that 2nd tier type of QB they can be competitive but I think they'd plateau and fail to find greatness unless they got better at building the rest of the roster and improved the culture.

 

Both Vinny and Bruce's regime have been epically atrocious IMO at managing the QB spot.  We've giving up a gazillion draft picks and a lot of money and all we have to show is a once in a blue moon 10-6 type of season.  Hopefully Haskins changes that narrative as opposed to pile on to it.  Got my fingers crossed. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Stone Cold said:

it’s the culture.  Culture is what prevents losing streaks.  It’s what says “we just lost to the worst team in the league, but it’s ok cuz we’re still gonna whoop some ass”.  We don’t have that.  We lose and it snowballs.  Drafting fixes that.  We haven’t been drafting long enough.  We’re 2 good drafts away from having enough depth to be competitive annually.  FAs are cool and all but they augment and put your team over the top.  We’re suffering from years of selling picks for FAs.  Gonna take time to rebuild the right way.  My fear...THIS is the window.  We have good 26> talent but a lame duck coach and/front office.  We can not swing and miss with the coaching change this time or we’ll find ourselves here again in 5 years.  Whoever it is dan brings in...if we want perpetual competitive seasons with realistic playoff expectations...that person HAS to be allowed to develop with our youth movement and hopefully whatever young talent we continue to draft

 

This is coming from a guy who loves the draft maybe more than the season itself.   I do agree that drafting well is key.    So am with you about the enthusiasm of drafting well.  And building draft upon draft.  But I don't think they do that perfectly.   19 teams have younger rosters than us.  The Dolphins who are rebuilding have the youngest roster and are loaded with picks.  Dan never seems willing to fully commit to a rebuild. 

 

I'd add this.  Clinton Portis who loves Dan was once asked why doesn't this team ever get over the hump -- his response is this team never crashes and when you never fully crash  you miss out on elite players.  Now I disagree with him that we never crash.  But when we've had high picks -- we got RG3 (we got at least one magical year), Trent, and Sean Taylor.   It helps.   My point is getting the first pick or 2nd in a loaded draft like this one coming up -- could be just what the doctored ordered.  The Dolphins are tanking on purpose.  Dan doesn't believe in that -- but he might be forced into it this season whether he likes it or not. 

 

But when it comes to culture, it's beyond good drafts IMO.  I think its no accident why every coach here sans Norv doesn't have a winning record under Dan.  IMO these things need to change

 

A.  Having an owner which doesn't rule by impatience and fear

B.  Having your top personnel person actually be really really good at personnel

C.  Have that top personnel guy work with the head coach and assistant coaches to build a roster that fits the identity they are shooting for

D.  Try to do things with class.  If people leave for whatever reason make the departures smooth -- be known as the Redskins of the 80s -- they weren't just winners but also seen as the good guys not the bad guys.

E.  Have the NFL see the operation as first class.  The best stadium.  Best facilities. Everything. 

F.  Have one overarching vision-culture.  And that person should be the best person in the building to do that -- not a figurehead or whomever is closest with the owner.

 

I think a dark horse problem with the culture issues are the we make decisions by committee drill.   To me the committee idea brings a schizophrenic way to build a roster.  Hey we gave Jay this dude.  Doug wanted this guy.  Dan doesn't chime in much so when he does we should at least give him that, etc.   I've seen how that style works in an organization work and its not ideal.

 

Also the Dan just likes to spend money thing.  It doesn't feel that way.  Redskins Park from what others have said isn't even up to snuff to college standards.  I know this is a small thing but it seems like it embodies the Dan regime -- the media saying the Redskins serves the worst food in the NFL and when they go to Dallas for example they are treated like kings.

 

Part of the reason why I am big time into them getting a stadium is I think it would help wipe out the growing stigma that its a 2nd class organization that's bleeding fans.  I'd like to see for a change in a survey when agents are asked which teams do they hope their clients go to -- they say the Redskins.  That's how it used to be.  It's not that way it is now.

 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 10/4/2019 at 11:01 AM, Andre The Giant said:

 

So here’s the problem with this statement. Teams get it wrong all the time.  Sometimes they get it right.  And group think isn’t always correct.

 

Every team in the league passed on Dan Marino except the ‘Skins.  Drew Brees lasted until the 2nd.  Wilson the 3rd.  Brady the 6th.  

 

Conversely, 

 

Just because some teams had Haskins later doesn’t mean it was correct.  Doesn’t mean it was wrong either.  

 

But the idea that because other teams didn’t love Haskins at 15 means it was a bad pick is just faulty logic.  

[wit33]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I mostly agree.  But I'd give them a bigger break if they built an elite unit from time to time or found elite players. Like Dallas with their O line.  The Bears with their defensive unit.  And plenty of other examples of that.  That doesn't really happen here.  

 

Fantastic point. You’d like to establish an elite grouping somewhere on some side of the ball lol. 

 

I thought the offense as a whole with Jackson, Garçon, Reed, and an arguably top 10 Oline, with Kirk had a chance, but the unit never could quite get out of being just above average and dominate games. 

 

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've been on the record that their college scouting is good maybe even very good-- I am not sure about great just yet.  The pro personnel IMO is mediocre to awful depending on the off season.  It averages IMO to mediocre.  We look less than mediocre this season lol so maybe the national media got it right this off season about this roster.  

 

This stuff admittedly I choose not to delve into much, due to the scarcity of information available about the ongoing and my unwillingness to untangle it to gain any legitimate perspective. 

 

I’d need the ability to establish what average means, but results matter lol and to your point about not developing/getting elite talent or units is true. 

 

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I do think you can overcome a mediocre roster or for that matter even a bad culture with a great QB.  I got my doubts about whether a good QB is enough.  The Alex 6-4 run was mostly wins against bad teams, a hobbled GB being the exception.    Nothing special IMO.  They've had their streaks here and there similar to that.  They were also 6-3 to start the 2016 season.  But agree with a QB like Alex or Kirk or name that 2nd tier type of QB they can be competitive but I think they'd plateau and fail to find greatness unless they got better at building the rest of the roster and improved the culture.

 

We’ve butted heads a bit on the Alex Smith season, I don’t think we’re actually too far off— In no way did I think the season was set to be a special one and I was almost certain the Skins would lose in the wild card or easily get beat in the divisional round. The Skins were just average, but average with an identity and a “pro” at QB, a guy the team liked and believed in. 

 

But... I understand this kind of stuff comes down to philosophical differences, person value of a season, and perspectives of how an organization achieves success. 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Both Vinny and Bruce's regime have been epically atrocious IMO at managing the QB spot.  We've giving up a gazillion draft picks and a lot of money and all we have to show is a once in a blue moon 10-6 type of season.  Hopefully Haskins changes that narrative as opposed to pile on to it.  Got my fingers crossed. 

 

My memory can’t get there with Vinny outside of the association of him spending a lot on free agents to compare the two, but I want to the organization to continue the path it’s been in valuing the draft, mindful in free agency (but pounce on elite talent — Jackson and Norman), and patience with the coach with continuity being valued greatly. I’m open to prospects of it being done at a higher level by another regime, we’ll see. 

4 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

So here’s the problem with this statement. Teams get it wrong all the time.  Sometimes they get it right.  And group think isn’t always correct.

 

Every team in the league passed on Dan Marino except the ‘Skins.  Drew Brees lasted until the 2nd.  Wilson the 3rd.  Brady the 6th.  

 

Conversely, 

 

Just because some teams had Haskins later doesn’t mean it was correct.  Doesn’t mean it was wrong either.  

 

But the idea that because other teams didn’t love Haskins at 15 means it was a bad pick is just faulty logic.  

 

Yawn...

 

An attempt to have a hot take during time of Haskins and Skins buzz. An old head posting with same intentions of a TMZ personality.