Llevron Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Yall are super knowledgeable and I just wanted to let you know I appreciate it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said: He has a lot of money, owns an NFL franchise and owns a big yacht. 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said: He has a lot of money, owns an NFL franchise and owns a big yacht. 100%. The keyword in my statement was worthwhile though. There will always be folks that want to latch on to a guy like Dan. The issue is getting some legit to latch on to Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: The keyword in my statement was worthwhile though. There will always be folks that want to latch on to a guy like Dan. The issue is getting some legit to latch on to Dan. Sheehan put it well IMO this week which is yeah Dan will always find people to work for him. But the idea that the culture is awful at Redskins Park isn't lost on the league. so they will have ironically a hard time attracting the right people to fix it because they will have better opportunities elsewhere. And he piles on to the idea (that others have) that it would be even harder for Dan to pull a big hire with Bruce in the building -- Bruce is considered a big part of that toxic culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: OK, I agree he might try. And who knows? we are all just guessing. Yes. There’s no way to know until it happens. 18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: I am catching up with a Hoffman segment right now from yesterday on Dukes' show. He's gotten pretty plugged in. He doubled down that Dan-FO are insulated and delusional but if fans continue to be no shows it might eventually smack them in the face enough where it registers. I am forgetting who said it now but two people who cover the team have said this week the FO is stunned about this start -- they didn't see it coming even a little bit. I think we got some deeper challenges this time: A. Dan has gotten even more reclusive now. Bruce is like the Bo Jackson of Redskins Park, in charge of everything. Bruce even represents Dan at owner meetings and goes it often alone. Some who have covered both eras say that Vinny was mostly just doing what Dan wanted wheres he trusts Bruce in a bigger way and often albeit doesn't always let Bruce do his thing. B. The Stadium. Yeah. And he’s got probably both Bruce and Jay selling injuries again. McCoy was the guy who was supposed to start the season. Allen missed a game and a half. Scherff and Rouille missed last game. Guice, who was going to be a huge part of the offense (even though he’s kindof like the titanic of RBs, maiden voyage and he sank) We were 6-3 with Alex All the excuses. And they are all just excuses from losers. Anybody who brings up injuries is a worthless loser. The question is if Dan is dumb enough to buy it. Or if he feels like he has to do something, even if he does believe it is bad luck. Id be ok with that. Dan doesn’t believe Bruce did anything wrong but also believes he has to make changes because he just has to change the narrative. We’ll see. The FO not seeing this coming at all, Dan might finally look at them and say, “this is SO bad, how did you miss it?” I know it seems like I’m putting a ton of faith in Dan. I’m not. I have no Idea whether he can do anything successfully. But he’s the guy who has to fire Bruce. So he’s the guy who we have to figure out what he’s going to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said: Sheehan put it well IMO this week which is yeah Dan will always find people to work for him. But the idea that the culture is awful at Redskins Park isn't lost on the league. so they will have ironically a hard time attracting the right people to fix it because they will have better opportunities elsewhere. And he piles on to the idea (that others have) that it would be even harder for Dan to pull a big hire with Bruce in the building -- Bruce is considered a big part of that toxic culture. I bet a whole bunch of people feel like they can go in and fix the culture. They believe in themselves to fix everything below the owner. You know what’s fascinating? The Raiders were kindof a laughing stock until Jon got there, with Al Davis meddling in everything and causing problems. And he basically told Al to go back to the owners box and shut up. And he built that team into a SB contender. Minus the tuck Rule, they might have been in a SB.... Say what you want about Jon, but he has (or at least had) a ridiculous intensity. Its a pity Jay hasn’t tried to do the same thing here. It might not have worked, but it might have. And if it had, he might not be in the situation he’s in now. Or he would have been fired already and probably much happier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 18 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said: I know it seems like I’m putting a ton of faith in Dan. I’m not. I have no Idea whether he can do anything successfully. But he’s the guy who has to fire Bruce. So he’s the guy who we have to figure out what he’s going to do. Dan is a big mystery but the three stories that to me are so definitive of his personality because it matches things that have manifested in different ways: A. The time Vinny explained why Gregg Williams wasn't hired and he said a large part of it was he and Dan watched the playoffs together and they didn't really bond like friends -- the chemistry was off. B. Cooley saying last year if Bruce for whatever reason leaves his spot in personnel the next guy needs to have a similar good relationship with Dan -- its not just about how good they are at their job C. I forgot it was either Dan or someone close to Dan who said that Dan loved Vinny in part because he was close to his family and he was always the optimist who made Dan feel better about the state of the team. I'd kick in what Sheehan has said and others that Dan-Bruce are delusional and very arrogant. When things go wrong its bad luck or its about other people's fault, not them. All those things to me paint a picture that Dan's social life is very interlinked to his job. And he seems to get off about how he's unfairly targeted and things are better than they seem. I gather Vinny previously and now Bruce help feed that delusion. I gather Dan always needs a scapegoat for the team's struggles. And as long as fans are targeting their wrath at other people in the organization -- then I gather it gives him some comfort that its "them" and not him and he can keep going about his business. Who knows but that's my best shot at it. 12 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said: I bet a whole bunch of people feel like they can go in and fix the culture. They believe in themselves to fix everything below the owner. I agree but I wonder if they still do. 10 years ago it made sense. Dan would openly talk about how young and stupid he was and now he's matured. That's out the window now. 20 years is a big sample. I am sure they will attract someone but got my doubts its a top tier type person unless Dan is willing to overpay in an over the top way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 26 minutes ago, Llevron said: Yall are super knowledgeable and I just wanted to let you know I appreciate it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTskin Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 26 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said: All the excuses. And they are all just excuses from losers. Anybody who brings up injuries is a worthless loser. I assume you're only speaking to the Redskins in terms of injuries being a poor excuse. We certainly have many more problems than injuries... But, if you're talking about this in a general sense then you're being ignorant. Take away a few studs from any team and they will feel the affects. See statistic: Wins Above Replacement; it's valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 35 minutes ago, CTskin said: I assume you're only speaking to the Redskins in terms of injuries being a poor excuse. We certainly have many more problems than injuries... But, if you're talking about this in a general sense then you're being ignorant. Take away a few studs from any team and they will feel the affects. See statistic: Wins Above Replacement; it's valid. Injuries should never be held up by the team as an excuse. Ever. Under any circumstance. I posted on this at length before. Everybody has injuries. Some worse than others. The Eagles lost their starring QB, LT, RB and several players on defense and won the SB. I get that injuries are a thing. But it’s not an excuse. Especially not this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 To get a young stud of a coach (Riley) the college ranks, or an established all timer (Urban or Saban) or Jon Gruden or a Chip Kelly type in the past... Power, control, and record setting money deal is demanded from these type of coaches with this level of clout and leverage. The narrative Skins wouldn’t be able to attract a coach is false and continues to be proven false with hires around league and Skins history proves this. You then hope the coach with immense power understands the need to have a viable support system and qualified staff to help. Dangerous game, as coaches with this power can get lost in the power and lose perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 hour ago, wit33 said: To get a young stud of a coach (Riley) the college ranks, or an established all timer (Urban or Saban) or Jon Gruden or a Chip Kelly type in the past... Power, control, and record setting money deal is demanded from these type of coaches with this level of clout and leverage. The narrative Skins wouldn’t be able to attract a coach is false and continues to be proven false with hires around league and Skins history proves this. You then hope the coach with immense power understands the need to have a viable support system and qualified staff to help. Dangerous game, as coaches with this power can get lost in the power and lose perspective. OK but there is no way you know the narrative is false. Obviously I am quite aware of all of Dan's previous hires and the context behind every one of them. I've been a Redskins junkie sadly for a long-long time. There are people who cover the NFL who don't think Dan can pull it off anymore unless he does it Raiders style -- a ridiculous offer and more than what other more competent teams would give. Their theory is Dan 10 years ago isn't the same as Dan now with a 20 year sample size. And Bruce being here adds another hurdle. Now that could be wrong. It could be right. We don't know. Of the names you mentioned, I think I or name that person on this thread would be more likely to get the head coaching job with the Redskins than Dan luring Nick Saban from Alabama. But will see. 😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: OK but there is no way you know the narrative is false. Obviously I am quite aware of all of Dan's previous hires and the context behind every one of them. I've been a Redskins junkie sadly for a long-long time. There are people who cover the NFL who don't think Dan can pull it off anymore unless he does it Raiders style -- a ridiculous offer and more than what other more competent teams would give. Their theory is Dan 10 years ago isn't the same as Dan now with a 20 year sample size. And Bruce being here adds another hurdle. Now that could be wrong. It could be right. We don't know. Of the names you mentioned, I think I or name that person on this thread would be more likely to get the head coaching job with the Redskins than Dan luring Nick Saban from Alabama. But will see. 😀 All fair points. Maybe not a false narrative, but highly speculative without any historical facts to support. The Snyder will have to give up a great deal of leverage to make a such a deal happen, as we’ve seen with the Raiders and Grudens 10yr obnoxious deal or to a lesser extent Shanny/Lynch on 6 deals, which required the niners to do an unprecedented type also: ://www.knbr.com/2017/02/23/kyle-shanahan-has-no-offset-language-in-his-contract-report/ Both organizations were disgustingly bad when these “top guns” were hired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Not a chance in the world one of those big names mentioned comes here with Bruce still in charge. Don’t care how much money, it will not happen. I think some of you guys seriously underestimate just how bad Bruce’s rep really is. The only thing dude ever won was the ancestry lottery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Just now, wit33 said: All fair points. Maybe not a false narrative, but highly speculative without any historical facts to support. The Snyder will have to give up a great deal of leverage to make a such a deal happen, as we’ve seen with the Raiders and Grudens 10yr obnoxious deal or to a lesser extent Shanny/Lynch on 6 deals, which required the niners to do an unprecedented type also: ://www.knbr.com/2017/02/23/kyle-shanahan-has-no-offset-language-in-his-contract-report/ Both organizations were disgustingly bad when these “top guns” were hired. The "historical" part of your point isn't what's being challenged. Anyone who follows football is quite aware of Dan's splashy previous coaching hires. Some of the ones who are questioning Dan's ability to do it again actually covered those very hires. Your point seems to be nothing has changed since then where anything would be different. That's the point that some would challenge. That's what I would challenge, too. In Laconfora's case, he claims that's the impression he gets from talking to people around the league -- but who knows what that means. In other cases like Sheehan, Paulsen, etc -- its pure speculation using their logic on the point. I don't think Kyle Shanny/Lynch was that sexy of a hire. But yeah even for those two it turned to 6 years. Maybe the debate here is what's sexy? Hiring any coordinator who has never been a head coach before IMO isn't sexy. Ditto a coach who flamed out elsewhere like Bowles or one that isn't in big time demand like McCarthy. But yeah I can see hiring either dude would be a piece of cake or someone like that. For me sexy would be a Saban type. Lincoln Riley. Frankly it's tough for me to think of a really sexy HC hire who comes from the pro system currently. Cowher maybe years ago would be. Parcells years back would have been but he's too old now. My point is to get a Saban or Riley would you be competing against a prestigious college program where they have job security and full autonomy where they are considered football Gods. They'd also have their pick of any NFL team looking for a new coach. Those are some serious hurdles. If I were someone like Saban, I'd demand a crazy high salary like 10 million a year, personnel control, etc. And if another easier owner to work with offered me the same as Dan -- I'd take that other job. 19 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: Not a chance in the world one of those big names mentioned comes here with Bruce still in charge. Don’t care how much money, it will not happen. I think some of you guys seriously underestimate just how bad Bruce’s rep really is. The only thing dude ever won was the ancestry lottery. That's the other part of this. Part of the narrative is Bruce has doubled down on the unattractiveness of the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 @Skinsinparadise I haven’t mentioned past hires of Snyder and why I referenced recent hires of what were considered crappy franchises at the time. The larger point I’m attempting to make is that teams/owners with a system of how they want things done are less appealing to the “top gun” coach, due to the wanting to create their own system of how to do things. Saban came out of college to become the Dolphins coach, you know? He didn’t go there to be a piece of the engine, he wanted to be the engine. This is common for the big time coaches, in my opinion. Though, I can be pushed off this narrative as I’m only operating off of my individual narrative and lack an overall spectrum of knowledge on hires of the 20 years or so. Bad teams offer coaches the ability to be the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 34 minutes ago, wit33 said: @Skinsinparadise I haven’t mentioned past hires of Snyder and why I referenced recent hires of what were considered crappy franchises at the time. The larger point I’m attempting to make is that teams/owners with a system of how they want things done are less appealing to the “top gun” coach, due to the wanting to create their own system of how to do things. Saban came out of college to become the Dolphins coach, you know? He didn’t go there to be a piece of the engine, he wanted to be the engine. This is common for the big time coaches, in my opinion. Though, I can be pushed off this narrative as I’m only operating off of my individual narrative and lack an overall spectrum of knowledge on hires of the 20 years or so. Bad teams offer coaches the ability to be the engine. As for the Dolphins-Saban. I've met Huizenga (RIP) and know people who knew him. He was very active in the field am in. I don't see him as a Dan type. If it were me, and am looking for a job it wouldn't be purely about the record. It would be that Dan is considered by many an interfering douche. And when you leave that job, it isn't always a pleasant departure. Jerry in his day would interfere a lot but at least in his older age he's considered by some who know him as a nice guy to work for. But to play along with the pure record thought. The Dolphins had a nice run before Saban arrived. 7 winning seasons in row followed by a down season. And 5 playoffs seasons. At the rate Dan is going it would take him 40 years to get a team with that type of run if ever. 1997 1997 NFL AFC East 2nd 9 7 0 Lost Wild Card Playoffs (at Patriots) 17–3 1998 1998 NFL AFC East 2nd 10 6 0 Won Wild Card Playoffs (Bills) 24–17 Lost Divisional Playoffs (at Broncos) 38–3 Dan Marino (WPMOY) 1999 1999 NFL AFC East 3rd 9 7 0 Won Wild Card Playoffs (at Seahawks) 20–17 Lost Divisional Playoffs (at Jaguars) 62–7 2000 2000 NFL AFC East 1st 11 5 0 Won Wild Card Playoffs (Colts) 23–17 (OT) Lost Divisional Playoffs (at Raiders) 27–0 Dave Wannstedt 2001 2001 NFL AFC East 2nd 11 5 0 Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Ravens) 20–3 2002 2002 NFL AFC East 3rd 9 7 0 Ricky Williams (PB MVP) 2003 2003 NFL AFC East 2nd 10 6 0 2004 2004 NFL AFC East 4th 4 12 0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 28 minutes ago, wit33 said: Bad teams offer coaches the ability to be the engine. That's not how it works here. With Marty it started out that way and then Dan spent the entire year trying to take some of the power back, Marty refused, then got ****canned. Dan even had the power to hire a GM to draft the players but since Marty could just cut them because he had roster control, that wasn't good enough. Marty's personnel guy now has a couple SB rings. Shanahan had similar power but from pretty much day 1 Dan had to influence the roster and that's where we got Mcnugget and later RG3 for a bunch of draft picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre The Giant Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Schein crushes them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Good article from Keim, talking about the disconnect of drafting Haskins and bringing Jay back in a one now season among other things. https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/39092/redskins-january-decision-to-maintain-status-quo-looks-bad-in-hindsight ...They instead chose to keep Gruden and draft quarterback Dwayne Haskins in the first round. Now they will need to start over in a few months -- a situation that isn't good for Gruden, Haskins or the franchise. ...But they didn't really fix problem areas as much as they hoped they would get better. Then one thing after another pulled them further from that January thinking. ...Then again, any chance of Gruden saving his job probably involves Haskins. If the rookie plays -- and plays well for an extended time -- then perhaps there's a different conversation. It's a long shot for sure, but without that scenario, Gruden's departure is a "when," not an "if." The difficult part for a coach on the hot seat is trying to develop a quarterback he's unlikely to coach beyond this season. Haskins hasn't been ignored by any means, but if you're coaching for your job, you'll play the guy who can help you Sunday -- not in 2020 and beyond. At least, not until he becomes your last chance for survival. At some point, this season will be about Haskins' development, which will again make for a strange turn. If Gruden is still around, he'll be the one leading Haskins' development, knowing it won't do a whole lot to help his situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny9TD Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Wow. Great read on this freak show. Just copy and paste. Great read about this team. https://www.hogshaven.com/2019/10/3/20895179/20-years-of-dan-snyders-ownership-has-completely-destroyed-the-redskins-fan-base Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Wow - these articles are quite damning! Another point (and maybe this is more appropriate for the "Fan Erosion" thread, but also applicable here...I was just in my car for the 10am update on 980 and they mentioned the following things before muttering the word "Redskins": * The Caps winning their opener vs. the Blues * The Nats and tonight's NLDS Game 1 * The Rays beating the A's in the AL Wild Card Game Then they quickly mentioned the upcoming game vs. NE and the fact that the Skins are 2-TD underdogs before moving right into the Mystics. So, in an area and on a station where even 12 months ago the lead was ALWAYS the Redskins, especially in-season, they were 4th billing and right above the WNBA team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 10 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: So, in an area and on a station where even 12 months ago the lead was ALWAYS the Redskins, especially in-season, they were 4th billing and right above the WNBA team. This is just another reason to hate Bruce Allen and what he's done here. I prefer my morning and afternoon commute in the fall to be primarily that of Redskins talk, good, bad or indifferent. Listening to talk about baseball makes an already mundane commute even more mundane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said: This is just another reason to hate Bruce Allen and what he's done here. I prefer my morning and afternoon commute in the fall to be primarily that of Redskins talk, good, bad or indifferent. Listening to talk about baseball makes an already mundane commute even more mundane. It's interesting because I've always sided with what you said above. I'd laugh at the Wizards or Caps or Nats fans who complained about the stations devoting too much time to the Redskins. But, I get it. We have a local team who won a championship two years ago and another one who makes the playoffs consistently. Why do the Redskins deserve more air time than well-run and successful teams? Those fan bases are growing and energized while ours is shrinking and negative. I don't blame the stations for reacting to that (I know that you're not either). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Agent's Take: A first-hand look at Redskins GM Bruce Allen handling a holdout as Trent Williams continues to sit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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