The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

What Jones said is exactly what I’ve been feeling of late.  I’m not even sure getting steamrolled 3 more times will do the trick.  Jay has 2 years left on a deal Dan doesn’t want to pay off for nothing.  Dan talks to Bruce every day.  Just imagine the level of excuses and woe is me BS they talk about amongst themselves.  I don’t find it difficult to believe at all that Dan still buys whatever Bruce is selling.  

 

The only hope is guys like the minority owners and LaFemina have Dans ear and express their concern with proceeding as is and how that will impact the bottom line.

 

I agree, I think this is likely the lay of the land piecing together different narratives

 

It's this:

 

Dan really really wanting to keep his BFF, Bruce, and the stadium might give him an added excuse.  I think Bruce is even a bigger crutch and pal to him than Vinny was in Vinny's heyday. 

 

Versus

 

Perhaps Lafemina and the minority owners pushing Dan that he has to make a change (this is just a guess about Lafemina  -- the other part is about Russell (if I recall Brewer too but might be wrong about that) who says the minority owners don't care for Bruce.

 

Fan revolt.  Yeah I do think Vinny was on the money that fans complaints lead to his ouster and ditto why Fassel never got hired.  If fans send letters, emails, revolt and something like that happens in the last game -- low turnout, signs, etc.

 

 

I think the ride we are about to go on in the last three games is huge.  My take:

 

They go 3-0:  guaranteed Bruce is back.  

They go 2-1:  Bruce is very likely back

They go 1-2:  Bruce is likely back

They go 0-3:  Decent shot Bruce is gone especially if at least one more of those losses are embarrassing and hardly anyone shows up to the last game.

 

[Tsailand]

41 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

When you assemble a roster of guys who get hurt often, you can't be surprised when those same guys get hurt again and again.

[HardcoreZorn]

@Skinsinparadise

 

I don’t buy it for a second. And I actually do agree with the premise that Bruce has scapegoats. And rightfully so. Shanny was the de facto GM from 2009-2013. Then he brought in Scott, now he seems to rely on Kyle Smith to do the drafts. You can tell by how drastically different our approach to building the roster is. So it would make sense that Bruce goes “look this ain’t all on me” and that Dan buys it. Also I do find it weird that so many dismiss your top two QBs going down as not being a legitimate excuse. Do we not all remember how bad the Colts were after Peyton went down? Went from perennial playoff contender to first pick. Alex ain’t close to Peyton but the point is, QB’s matter. And signing a trash free agent off the street mid season and plugging him in is not exactly a winning formula. All teams would be doomed. We aren’t any different. So I can see in a way why Bruce has gotten this long of a leash, it’s not like he’s the guy who’s been drafting players and building the team all 9 years. And I could buy the report dan is confused at the level of hatred toward Bruce, as I’ve echoed those same thoughts.

 

But again, he was elevated to team president and he’s the guy who has overseen this whole thing. Too many screw ups at QB, not enough forward thinking, the cap penalty, all the draft picks given up for Griffin, McNabb contract and benching fiasco, not getting anything for Kirk, the Scott fiasco, etc. has all been under Bruce’s purview. The fan base has officially been lost. Players saying F the fan base. Another season with a middling record. This is the worst it’s ever been as far as atmosphere and mood surrounding the team. And if there’s one thing I know about Dan, it’s that this eats at him. There are going to be serious changes coming if this team does anything short of a miracle and winning out. And rightfully so. Bruce has been here for 9. Jay 5. He at least has shed the label of being impulsive and not letting things play out so from that standpoint this job will be more attractive. Still not attractive with Snyder at the top, but moreso than say 2009. But Dan will not tolerate this level of viscerality toward the team nor the apathy of fans coming out for the games. Even I turned the game off at halftime the other day, something I never do. I’m sure he will find a way to do it gracefully, but I will be shocked if Bruce is still here in that capacity and if he doesn’t make a few splash moves and drastic changes to reinvigorate the fanbase. It’s time for a reboot. New GM head coach QB everything. This regime has run its course. So I really take Jones’ take with a grain of salt. I don’t think he has any idea.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

34 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think the ride we are about to go on in the last three games is huge.  My take:

 

They go 3-0:  guaranteed Bruce is back.  

They go 2-1:  Bruce is very likely back

They go 1-2:  Bruce is likely back

They go 0-3:  Decent shot Bruce is gone especially if at least one more of those losses are embarrassing and hardly anyone shows up to the last game.

 

 

I don't know about this...if "they go 0-3" they have really gone 0-7 after a 6-3 start. I don't see any way Bruce survives that when many of the reasons were personnel-related. 

[Peregrine]

I guess the more I think about it, the more likely I think it is that both Allen and Gruden stay.  Because from the reports that Allen is still very much liked by Snyder, Allen doesnt seem to be going anywhere(lets face it, if you didnt fire him years ago, why this year?), and Gruden is a direct reflection of Allen.  If Allen fires Gruden, Snyder has to pay his next 2 years out of pocket, for an extension that should never have been signed.  If Allen didnt extend Gruden, he would be out of contract for free.  To fire Gruden would be a shock to Snyder, saying "What the heck did you do to cost me that much money over a very bad decision?".  They have to be a package deal, and its looking less and less likely.

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

@Skinsinparadise

 

I don’t buy it for a second. And I actually do agree with the premise that Bruce has scapegoats. And rightfully so. Shanny was the de facto GM from 2009-2013. Then he brought in Scott, now he seems to rely on Kyle Smith to do the drafts. You can tell by how drastically different our approach to building the roster is. So it would make sense that Bruce goes “look this ain’t all on me” and that Dan buys it. Also I do find it weird that so many dismiss your top two QBs going down as not being a legitimate excuse. Do we not all remember how bad the Colts were after Peyton went down? Went from perennial playoff contender to first pick. Alex ain’t close to Peyton but the point is, QB’s matter. And signing a trash free agent off the street mid season and plugging him in is not exactly a winning formula. All teams would be doomed. We aren’t any different.

 

If Alex had been playing at a high level, then you would have a point.  But Alex was not even playing well. Had the D continued playing as they did to start the season, we would have a better record now and have decent chance of winning out. QB has not won a single game this season, and that includes with Alex. The difference is he did not lose any games either. The 6-3 records was thanks mostly - not entirely - but mostly due to the D. Once they got figured out it's been **** since and that includes with Alex. 

 

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

So I can see in a way why Bruce has gotten this long of a leash, it’s not like he’s the guy who’s been drafting players and building the team all 9 years.

 

 

Let's go through this statement: 

Under Shanny, it's known they disagreed on several moves, not the least of which was McNabb and Robert. it was either Bruce who over ruled him or Dan. Now, it's true Shanny should have made more out of it if he were supposed to have full control. But that's on him. Still means we are not sure how much control Bruce had during his time here. We do know Shanny was tired enough after 2012 to almost quit then even after us making the POs. 

 

It's been made fairly public that Bruce did not give Scot full control. That is what ultimately led to their falling apart - yes Scot was probably drinking again in the end. But that was more of a result of him not having the control he was suppose to have. 

 

All other times - it's been Bruce's show 100%. 

 

With the totally ****ed up FO organization you really do not know who is to blame. That's one of the things that make it such a bad way to do run a team, or any business. Need clear lines of authority so slimey people like Bruce cannot slither their way though incompetence without being identified as the problem. 

 

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

And I could buy the report dan is confused at the level of hatred toward Bruce, as I’ve echoed those same thoughts.

 

This confusion can only come from a conscious effort to remain mostly blind to his inefficiencies as an executive and as a person - and yes we can state what he is as a person. I have seen enough of how he has handled situations to see he pretty much a total POS. His handling of SCot 9 not the firing, how it was handling in general, the stupid press release blaming Kirk, the entire Rueben Foster thing - he is a snake. He proves it more every day. 

 

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

But again, he was elevated to team president and he’s the guy who has overseen this whole thing. Too many screw ups at QB, not enough forward thinking, the cap penalty, all the draft picks given up for Griffin, McNabb contract and benching fiasco, not getting anything for Kirk, the Scott fiasco, etc. has all been under Bruce’s purview. The fan base has officially been lost. Players saying F the fan base. Another season with a middling record. This is the worst it’s ever been as far as atmosphere and mood surrounding the team. 

 

I actually agree with most of this but it seems contradictory to your first paragraph. You say it's not really his fault but then admit it's on his watch so he owns it. So not sure where you are going with that. 

 

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

And if there’s one thing I know about Dan, it’s that this eats at him. There are going to be serious changes coming if this team does anything short of a miracle and winning out. And rightfully so. Bruce has been here for 9. Jay 5. He at least has shed the label of being impulsive and not letting things play out so from that standpoint this job will be more attractive. Still not attractive with Snyder at the top, but moreso than say 2009. But Dan will not tolerate this level of viscerality toward the team nor the apathy of fans coming out for the games. Even I turned the game off at halftime the other day, something I never do. I’m sure he will find a way to do it gracefully, but I will be shocked if Bruce is still here in that capacity and if he doesn’t make a few splash moves and drastic changes to reinvigorate the fanbase. It’s time for a reboot. New GM head coach QB everything. This regime has run its course. So I really take Jones’ take with a grain of salt. I don’t think he has any idea.

 

Are you sure about this? I am not. I am more certain that he believes he knows better than everyone else and if has convinced himself it's not on Bruce, it will not matter what else is going on. The one thing that might finally get his attention is the lack of ticket sales. That is our only saving grace. It's something you cannot ignore forever, or make excuses for.

 

While I think most rationally thinking people realize the current FO has run it's course, Dan is so self centered and egotistical, I can see him convincing himself that it's all other peoples fault. 

 

[Cooleyfan1993]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I don't know about this...if "they go 0-3" they have really gone 0-7 after a 6-3 start. I don't see any way Bruce survives that when many of the reasons were personnel-related. 

...isn’t that basically what SIP said? That there’s a decent chance bruce Allen is gone if they go 0-3? Decent in this case meaning most likely he’ll be fired. You pretty much agreed with him 😂 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

32 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

...isn’t that basically what SIP said? That there’s a decent chance bruce Allen is gone if they go 0-3? Decent in this case meaning most likely he’ll be fired. You pretty much agreed with him 😂 

 

To me, "decent chance" isn't the same as "definitely gone" 

 

It felt like he was saying that 0-3 was the ONLY scenario where he felt there MIGHT be a chance he'd be let go. I believe that 0-3 means he's gone. Period. I think 1-2 (which again is 1-6 after the 6-3 start) is the "decent chance" scenario. 

[Skinsinparadise]

This is getting some play on twitter.  Cooley's been saying he here's Cobbs is killing it and they are excited about him.  But they never promoted him, now he's a Saint. 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

To me, "decent chance" isn't the same as "definitely gone" 

 

It felt like he was saying that 0-3 was the ONLY scenario where he felt there MIGHT be a chance he'd be let go. I believe that 0-3 means he's gone. Period. I think 1-2 (which again is 1-6 after the 6-3 start) is the "decent chance" scenario. 

 

I am just guessing piecing together different narratives.  The premise of my point is I keep hearing that Dan wants to bring back the same gang but he likely realizes that will be tough to do if the season ends badly.  Both Keim and Finlay seemed confident that Bruce's job was safe before the Giants game and then changed their tune after that game saying (especially Keim) that the last three games could be to save jobs.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am just guessing piecing together different narratives.  The premise of my point is I keep hearing that Dan wants to bring back the same gang but he likely realizes that will be tough to do if the season ends badly.  Both Keim and Finlay seemed confident that Bruce's job was safe before the Giants game and then changed their tune after that game saying (especially Keim) that the last three games could be to save jobs.

 

I understand now...my mistake. 

 

Hopefully the continued mistakes have an impact too. It's laughable that we lose a prospect at a position of need off our PS this late in the year. He should have been active a week ago. 

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

* Waiting for someone to spin it into “atleast other teams want our PS players” 

[carex]

is the thing with Cobb official cause you can bring your people from the PS to stop them from signing with other teams.  This really sucks cause with Doctson in concussion protocol I had heard the Skins might bring him up

 

I do feel like the Skins roster management this season might be a sign Bruce is on hios way out.  In previous injury plagued seasons we've managed to pull in some guys who excelled even given us extra seasons.  Not so this year.  And we even went into one game with 52 players, a situation that can technically screw up the practice squad for the next two years

[FrFan]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 Both Keim and Finlay seemed confident that Bruce's job was safe before the Giants game and then changed their tune after that game saying (especially Keim) that the last three games could be to save jobs.

I wonder how ?, it seems that the players have already quit on the season imo.

[Thinking Skins]

55 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

It's laughable that we lose a prospect at a position of need off our PS this late in the year. He should have been active a week ago. 

THis is what frustrates me the most about this season. We bring in Floyd and Perriman and even Chessen and Quick instead of promoting Cobbs. I'm not sayig he's a world beater but it reminds me of other players we've "valued highly" but didn't think were worthy of roster spots, but we kept Perine? Why is Marshall on this roster? We signed a 30 year old out of work LB (when Anderson went down) instead of promoting another promising prospect (either from our team or another team). I wonder whose call these moves were because they have the feel of an old coach trying to "win now" instead of building depth and teaching young players. But supposedly Gruden has an eye for talent so is this a DW move? BA? KS? someone else? Dan? 

[volsmet]

3 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

@Skinsinparadise

 

I don’t buy it for a second. And I actually do agree with the premise that Bruce has scapegoats. And rightfully so. Shanny was the de facto GM from 2009-2013. Then he brought in Scott, now he seems to rely on Kyle Smith to do the drafts. You can tell by how drastically different our approach to building the roster is. So it would make sense that Bruce goes “look this ain’t all on me” and that Dan buys it. Also I do find it weird that so many dismiss your top two QBs going down as not being a legitimate excuse. Do we not all remember how bad the Colts were after Peyton went down? Went from perennial playoff contender to first pick. Alex ain’t close to Peyton but the point is, QB’s matter. And signing a trash free agent off the street mid season and plugging him in is not exactly a winning formula. All teams would be doomed. We aren’t any different. So I can see in a way why Bruce has gotten this long of a leash, it’s not like he’s the guy who’s been drafting players and building the team all 9 years. And I could buy the report dan is confused at the level of hatred toward Bruce, as I’ve echoed those same thoughts.

 

But again, he was elevated to team president and he’s the guy who has overseen this whole thing. Too many screw ups at QB, not enough forward thinking, the cap penalty, all the draft picks given up for Griffin, McNabb contract and benching fiasco, not getting anything for Kirk, the Scott fiasco, etc. has all been under Bruce’s purview. The fan base has officially been lost. Players saying F the fan base. Another season with a middling record. This is the worst it’s ever been as far as atmosphere and mood surrounding the team. And if there’s one thing I know about Dan, it’s that this eats at him. There are going to be serious changes coming if this team does anything short of a miracle and winning out. And rightfully so. Bruce has been here for 9. Jay 5. He at least has shed the label of being impulsive and not letting things play out so from that standpoint this job will be more attractive. Still not attractive with Snyder at the top, but moreso than say 2009. But Dan will not tolerate this level of viscerality toward the team nor the apathy of fans coming out for the games. Even I turned the game off at halftime the other day, something I never do. I’m sure he will find a way to do it gracefully, but I will be shocked if Bruce is still here in that capacity and if he doesn’t make a few splash moves and drastic changes to reinvigorate the fanbase. It’s time for a reboot. New GM head coach QB everything. This regime has run its course. So I really take Jones’ take with a grain of salt. I don’t think he has any idea.

 

Trading for Smith was a brutal mistake, an old QB getting a career ending injury is not particularly shocking, the decision makers have to own it as an error, not bad luck. We won a couple 50/50 games, but we were not contenders with him, the injury was a blessing to the franchise. 

 

Miami lost a QB, replaced him with garbage, and they are still relevant. They torched the Bears defense with a backup QB nobody wanted, an old RB, 4 WRs nobody wants, a TE nobody wants, & an Oline with massive injuries — they scored more points on the Bears than Jay would score on them even if we played the bears every week of the season. Injuries happen.

 

SF puts up points with Mullen. They lost their top 2 QBs, lost their top 2 WRs, now lost their RB, & they still beat Denver. 3rd string QB, they were not doomed, they were not getting humiliated by the Giants, they beat a playoff contender. 

 

You referenced indi when they lost Peyton but not NE when they lost Brady, twice. NE was great with 20 million in cap & their HOF QB on the pine, twice. We we are run poorly, we are coached poorly. Everyone wouldn’t be doomed, everyone isn’t as bad as Washington. 

[HardcoreZorn]

2 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

If Alex had been playing at a high level, then you would have a point.  But Alex was not even playing well. Had the D continued playing as they did to start the season, we would have a better record now and have decent chance of winning out. QB has not won a single game this season, and that includes with Alex. The difference is he did not lose any games either. The 6-3 records was thanks mostly - not entirely - but mostly due to the D. Once they got figured out it's been **** since and that includes with Alex. 

I was far from thrilled with his level of play, but having a QB who can manage games and not lose them should not be discounted as nothing and viewed through such a negative lens. As you can see now, there’s much worse. You can’t discount setting the defense up in favorable positions as nothing. You cannot discount not turning the ball over as nothing. You cannot discount team morale and belief as having no affect on the outcome of games. You think the team practices as hard or is as confident to go out there and play well with Sanchez under center? Hell no. It makes a difference. 

 

 

Quote

 

 

Let's go through this statement: 

Under Shanny, it's known they disagreed on several moves, not the least of which was McNabb and Robert. it was either Bruce who over ruled him or Dan. Now, it's true Shanny should have made more out of it if he were supposed to have full control. But that's on him. Still means we are not sure how much control Bruce had during his time here. We do know Shanny was tired enough after 2012 to almost quit then even after us making the POs. 

Pretty sure when Shanny was here, Dan was still meddling and Bruce was a figure head. Shanny was drooling over Robert by the way, the thing he didn’t agree on was the compensation after the cap penalty. But that had Danny’s finger prints all over it in my opinion. He was and is the bigger problem. I don’t think Bruce was anything more than a figurehead GM until after Shanny left. 

 

Quote

 

It's been made fairly public that Bruce did not give Scot full control. That is what ultimately led to their falling apart - yes Scot was probably drinking again in the end. But that was more of a result of him not having the control he was suppose to have. 

Did I not mention the Scott fiasco as a reason we need a regime change? What’s that got to with pointing out it’s murky from Dan’s POV how much blame he should assign Bruce? I mean let’s use the offensive line position as an example as I have before. How do you explain going from 280LB offensive lineman who fit the Shanny ZBS to drafting big behemoths like Scherff and Moses? It’s because Shanny was buying the groceries and then when Scott/Jay came on board they had a different philosophy when it came to the trenches. I mean there are a million examples that show there are other individuals with their hand in it. Thus making it more challenging from Dans POV and “giving him a longer leash.” Still, Dan must recognize that Bruce has been in the building for nine years now and has overseen these happenings. He’s played his role to be sure. And it’s not good enough right now, the fan base is a ghost town, and it’s time for a change at the top.  

Quote

 

All other times - it's been Bruce's show 100%. 

Ok if that’s what you want to cling to.

Quote

With the totally ****ed up FO organization you really do not know who is to blame. That's one of the things that make it such a bad way to do run a team, or any business. Need clear lines of authority so slimey people like Bruce cannot slither their way though incompetence without being identified as the problem. 

But you just finished telling me how much Bruce is to blame. Now we don’t know who to blame? I think the guy you’re searching for is Dan. 

Quote

 

 

This confusion can only come from a conscious effort to remain mostly blind to his inefficiencies as an executive and as a person - and yes we can state what he is as a person. I have seen enough of how he has handled situations to see he pretty much a total POS. His handling of SCot 9 not the firing, how it was handling in general, the stupid press release blaming Kirk, the entire Rueben Foster thing - he is a snake. He proves it more every day. 

Yeah I think your disdain for the Rueben Foster signing is shining through here. You’ve been on one recently. Anyways, the gist of my post wasn’t to defend Bruce, it was to say it’s bull **** to not recognize that losing your top 2 QBs is a pretty damn good excuse for the season going off the rails. And that it’s murky on how to assign blame around here. But that’s on Dan. You just hate the dude so much it distorts your view on things. It’s actually OK to acknowledge these things, yet also acknowledge the state of the fanbase is a direct reflection of Allen’s job on the whole and it’s time to pull the plug. We need a change. 

Quote

 

 

I actually agree with most of this but it seems contradictory to your first paragraph. You say it's not really his fault but then admit it's on his watch so he owns it. So not sure where you are going with that. 

See Above.

Quote

 

 

Are you sure about this? I am not. I am more certain that he believes he knows better than everyone else and if has convinced himself it's not on Bruce, it will not matter what else is going on. The one thing that might finally get his attention is the lack of ticket sales. That is our only saving grace. It's something you cannot ignore forever, or make excuses for.

 

While I think most rationally thinking people realize the current FO has run it's course, Dan is so self centered and egotistical, I can see him convincing himself that it's all other peoples fault. 

 

I am. This is the worst it’s been. Last time it was this bad was after Zorn and Danny fired Vinny and went out and got Shanny and Bruce ironically. And the fans rejoiced. Dan will cave to enough public pressure. And it’s reaching a boiling point right now. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

* Waiting for someone to spin it into “atleast other teams want our PS players” 

 

Cooley years ago said Reiter won't last on the practice squad, he was right.  He bounced around but I noticed KC recently signed him to a longer contract.  Cooley was raving a week ago about Cobbs is killing it with the the practice squad and the FO really digs him.    With all our injuries especially to receiver, we can't promote him and in turn we lose him?  Weird. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

I was far from thrilled with his level of play, but having a QB who can manage games and not lose them should not be discounted as nothing and viewed through such a negative lens. As you can see now, there’s much worse. You can’t discount setting the defense up in favorable positions as nothing. You cannot discount not turning the ball over as nothing. You cannot discount team morale and belief as having no affect on the outcome of games. You think the team practices as hard or is as confident to go out there and play well with Sanchez under center? Hell no. It makes a difference. 

 

Never said it made no difference. In fact I was one of those who was defending Alex and his ball control. Making those very points you jsut highlighted. But let's not pretend he was a beacon of awesome QB play and losing him was he end of the team. Of course losing the QBs makes some difference. But the difference i nth season has more to do with the Defense going to crap than QB play. 

 

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Pretty sure when Shanny was here, Dan was still meddling and Bruce was a figure head. Shanny was drooling over Robert by the way, the thing he didn’t agree on was the compensation after the cap penalty. But that had Danny’s finger prints all over it in my opinion. He was and is the bigger problem. I don’t think Bruce was anything more than a figurehead GM until after Shanny left. 

 

"Pretty sure?" This is because it fits your narrative of Bruce is not that bad a guy. I said we don;t know - and i have been consistent on that. I have not said he was certianly to blame even though you assuse me of this later. I am saying it's a bit more palatable tan thinking he was just a figure head knowing what we know about he desire to collect power. And of course Dan is the biggest enabler. No one is leaving him out of this. He is the main problem. 

 

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Did I not mention the Scott fiasco as a reason we need a regime change? What’s that got to with pointing out it’s murky from Dan’s POV how much blame he should assign Bruce? I mean let’s use the offensive line position as an example as I have before. How do you explain going from 280LB offensive lineman who fit the Shanny ZBS to drafting big behemoths like Scherff and Moses? It’s because Shanny was buying the groceries and then when Scott/Jay came on board they had a different philosophy when it came to the trenches. I mean there are a million examples that show there are other individuals with their hand in it. Thus making it more challenging from Dans POV and “giving him a longer leash.” Still, Dan must recognize that Bruce has been in the building for nine years now and has overseen these happenings. He’s played his role to be sure. And it’s not good enough right now, the fan base is a ghost town, and it’s time for a change at the top.  

 

There are always other hands in it. But he has main responsibility. And that's the point. No that he is actually making every single decision. Of course I never said that either, you kind of made that up to help your point. Of course there weer different approaches. My problem is that it appears that key decisions he seems to have over ruled, either based on dans input or on his own that has been detrimental to the team. 

 

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Ok if that’s what you want to cling to.

Really? I thoguht we were past this kind of non-sense answer. During the time Scot and Shanny were not here., it was made clear he is making final choices. It's not something to cling to. it's a fact. He has made it clear he is president and GM and makes te last call. Has he made every decision? Of course not, again. But he is responsible for them all as the person in charge. 

 

So just to be clear, my point is during Shanny we do not know how much Bruce had input but it's clear he had some, with Scot, Scot reported to him so he had final say over Scot - something Scot did not like. All other times in his nine years he made it clear he makes the last call - either on his own or at Dan's direction if that makes you feel better. But Dan is not going anywhere.  

 

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But you just finished telling me how much Bruce is to blame. Now we don’t know who to blame? I think the guy you’re searching for is Dan. 

Yeah I think your disdain for the Rueben Foster signing is shining through here. You’ve been on one recently. Anyways, the gist of my post wasn’t to defend Bruce, it was to say it’s bull **** to not recognize that losing your top 2 QBs is a pretty damn good excuse for the season going off the rails. And that it’s murky on how to assign blame around here. But that’s on Dan. You just hate the dude so much it distorts your view on things. It’s actually OK to acknowledge these things, yet also acknowledge the state of the fanbase is a direct reflection of Allen’s job on the whole and it’s time to pull the plug. We need a change. 

 

No, please read more closely. I said during Shinny we don't know, with Scot we know he had last say and other times he had lost say. You keep trying to make it like I am saying he is making all decisions. I never said that. I did say he is responsible for all decisions some of those times and other times we do not know. I have been very consistent here despite your best efforts to send this another way. And no one is leaving Dan out. We are talking about Bruce. Dan is also a complete POS and ultimately owns it all over Bruce and everyone else. But we can't get rid of him. 

 

What I will say, again, is that given his desire for power and need to be in control it's not beyond belief that he has undermined anyone else in the FO. But I am not in the room so I do not know for sure. That's just my opinion. 

 

As for the bolded - man just stop that ****. If we are going to discuss things let's discuss things. But crap like implying I am being irrational and just filled with hate so I can't see anything else is total bull**** and you know it. I do not like Bruce - but have been able to highlight things he has done positive and you know that too. Not sure what the Foster thing has to do other than I am embarrassed by this organization. But foster is not the primary driver, just one of many. 

 

So let's leave this type of sensationalist type rhetoric out of the conversation. It would be like me saying you are just a blind homer who refuses to see anything negative. Not a fair or true statement. 

 

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See Above.

I am. This is the worst it’s been. Last time it was this bad was after Zorn and Danny fired Vinny and went out and got Shanny and Bruce ironically. And the fans rejoiced. Dan will cave to enough public pressure. And it’s reaching a boiling point right now. 

 

I hope you are right. I really do. I want nothing more than for him to make a change - fully aware the real root cause is Dan Snyder himself. The hope is that he somehow gets lucky and gets it right this time. 

 

[SkinsFTW]

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

Last time it was this bad was after Zorn and Danny fired Vinny and went out and got Shanny and Bruce ironically. And the fans rejoiced.

 

Not all of the fans were excited to see Bruce replace Vinny (or Shanahan hired as HC). The guy is more of the same, a loser who spent his entire career working with Al Davis and Jon Gruden who you know for a fact which one was making most of the real decisions. Dan brings him here and then pretends to not be involved and for some reason most of the fans buy it. Another decade of comedy ensues. Since Bruce Allen didn't make all these dumb decisions by himself Dan Snyder probably won't fire him, but he fired Vinny for not stopping him for doing dumb crap (according to Vinny) so who knows.

 

Dan has chosen to roll with an almost mediocre never going to win anything setup over possibly actually winning because it's still more fun to play with his toy than to watch somebody else do it right. Nothing has changed since he fired Marty Schottenheimer after 2001. Bruce Allen is the front for Snyder, the same thing he was asking for Marty to agree to in 2001 before he was fired. He requires people who will allow him to play fantasy football in the background.

 

Which brings back some memories of all that:

 

" When Dan Snyder bought the Washington Redskins, he said he'd be a "hands-on" owner. On Thursday, he presented Marty Schottenheimer as his new coach and vowed to be "hands-off."

 

"This is Marty Schottenheimer's organization from the standpoint of the final word," Snyder said. "This is something he needs to have, it's important to have."

 

"We're making a chance here in such a way to set the future of the Redskins," Snyder said. "This is the first official stamp that Dan Snyder's putting on this football team."

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/skins-snyder-now-handsoff/

 

Next:

 

Under Schottenheimer, the Redskins recovered from an 0-5 start this season to finish 8-8, but owner Dan Snyder was unhappy with some of the coach's personnel moves.

The two met several times over the past week, including twice on Sunday, in a showdown best described as a power struggle. Snyder tried to convince Schottenheimer of the need to hire a general manager and wanted to change a clause in Schottenheimer's contract that gave the coach final decisions over player matters when there was disagreement in the front office.

 

 

Schottenheimer refused.

"Coach Schottenheimer gave 100 percent of his efforts to the Redskins and made positive contributions to the team," Snyder said. "Our decision was a difficult one and was based on philosophical and management issues, not on coaching ability."

 

When Schottenheimer was hired, one of the most noticeable changes was that the coach always called the owner by his first name -- former coach Norv Turner always said "Mr. Snyder."

 

By the end of the season, Schottenheimer was calling the owner "Mr. Snyder."

 

https://www.chron.com/sports/texans/article/Redskins-fire-Schottenheimer-may-replace-with-2057433.php

 

"The issue we could not resolve was the process of selecting
players to make up the Washington Redskins roster,"
Schottenheimer said. "The opportunity to determine the
composition of the Washington Redskins was the single most
element of my taking the job here last January.

"It was my belief that my way would have been the most
successful, but Daniel Snyder owns the Washington Redskins. He made the commitment to the
organization and he is entitled to make any decision he chooses."

The team subsequently issued a statement in which Snyder said that
Schottenheimer was released from his contract, not for any coaching reasons,
but rather "because of philosophical management issues." The statement noted Schottenheimer had been offered various paradigms in which he could have retained his job. A Redskins source said Schottenheimer had "a ton" of opportunities with "very palatable" options that would have kept him with the team.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/1310774

 

17 years later, why would Snyder fire Bruce Allen? He's doing exactly what he wants him to do.

[Skinsinparadise]

Agree that there is no way to know for sure.

 

Chris Russell who has nailed the most gossip right about the FO has said this about Bruce.

 

Bruce led the charge along with Dan to get McNabb. Shanny wasn't into that deal.

 

While Shanny wanted RG3 he didn't agree with the price the Rams wanted. Bruce negotiated that price.

 

Bruce sided with Dan that Shanny was the problem in the back and forth with RG3

 

Bruce solidified himself as the man in power by far once Shanny left.

 

If you have Bruce's back he will have yours but if u challenge him he will run you over

 

The Bruce is a douche narrative, we got from a number of sources but agents saying he is the least trustworthy GM in the league is the kicker

 

Cooley who likes Bruce says Bruce was not going to give up power to anyone voluntarily 

 

We got Laconfora saying back when the Redskins were pretending to look for a Scot replacement, they were unlikely going to find someone really good because Bruce would still be the guy overseeing, and they were cheap into what they would offer that person compared to the rest of the league.

 

I could easily go on with other stuff but that paints the picture plenty.

[HardcoreZorn]

37 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Never said it made no difference. In fact I was one of those who was defending Alex and his ball control. Making those very points you jsut highlighted. But let's not pretend he was a beacon of awesome QB play and losing him was he end of the team. Of course losing the QBs makes some difference. But the difference i nth season has more to do with the Defense going to crap than QB play. 

I know, I wasn’t. Just think people saying things like “I’m sure injuries are going to be used as an excuse” is strange because of course they are. Like Bruce/FO/Jay have every reason to believe had Alex AND Colt not gotten hurt that we’re not going down the tubes. We’ll agree to disagree here. But I still don’t think it’s enough to be saving jobs. The franchise needs a reboot.

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"Pretty sure?" This is because it fits your narrative of Bruce is not that bad a guy. I said we don;t know - and i have been consistent on that. I have not said he was certianly to blame even though you assuse me of this later. I am saying it's a bit more palatable tan thinking he was just a figure head knowing what we know about he desire to collect power. And of course Dan is the biggest enabler. No one is leaving him out of this. He is the main problem. 

I said pretty sure cause it’s just my opinion, none of us are there. I just think Bruce didn’t really seize his control until Gruden came on so the whole nine years thing is incorrect. Again, in my opinion. 

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There are always other hands in it. But he has main responsibility. And that's the point. No that he is actually making every single decision. Of course I never said that either, you kind of made that up to help your point. Of course there weer different approaches. My problem is that it appears that key decisions he seems to have over ruled, either based on dans input or on his own that has been detrimental to the team. 

Why are you taking this as me saying Bruce is great and needs to stay? Why does it evoke such a reaction that I present a take other than “Bruce has been here for nine years and messes everything up?” I mean are we not saying similar things? It just seems anything contrary to saying he’s an awful human being and the worst GM in the history of the NFL is offensive. I was merely pointing out that the whole nine years thing is probably not how Danny is viewing it because himself and others also have played their part in decisions. 

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Really? I thoguht we were past this kind of non-sense answer. During the time Scot and Shanny were not here., it was made clear he is making final choices. It's not something to cling to. it's a fact. He has made it clear he is president and GM and makes te last call. Has he made every decision? Of course not, again. But he is responsible for them all as the person in charge. 

Yeah I said as much. What are we arguing? When you say 100% Bruce’s show did you imply he should own it since everything is below him? If so I agree. I thought you meant he was the primary driver in the majority of personnel decisions in which case I don’t agree. 

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No, please read more closely. I said during Shinny we don't know, with Scot we know he had last say and other times he had lost say. You keep trying to make it like I am saying he is making all decisions. I never said that. I did say he is responsible for all decisions some of those times and other times we do not know. I have been very consistent here despite your best efforts to send this another way. And no one is leaving Dan out. We are talking about Bruce. Dan is also a complete POS and ultimately owns it all over Bruce and everyone else. But we can't get rid of him. 

Ok perhaps I misunderstood.

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As for the bolded - man just stop that ****. If we are going to discuss things let's discuss things. But crap like implying I am being irrational and just filled with hate so I can't see anything else is total bull**** and you know it. I do not like Bruce - but have been able to highlight things he has done positive and you know that too. Not sure what the Foster thing has to do other than I am embarrassed by this organization. But foster is not the primary driver, just one of many. 

Dude it’s not meant to be offensive. You hate Bruce, no? So you operate from a vantage point that everything we do is F Bruce. Do you not? 

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So let's leave this type of sensationalist type rhetoric out of the conversation. It would be like me saying you are just a blind homer who refuses to see anything negative. Not a fair or true statement. 

I come off stronger than I actually am in real life. I think this board would be shocked to know what I’m actually like in person lol. I think I get aggravated because I get ganged up on for not displaying this hatred toward Bruce. I try and be conscious of it but sometimes I say things that come across the wrong way.

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I hope you are right. I really do. I want nothing more than for him to make a change - fully aware the real root cause is Dan Snyder himself. The hope is that he somehow gets lucky and gets it right this time. 

 

Me too, I’m hopeful. But even I’m losing hope after all this time. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to Finlay's podcast with Keim, both saying the FO was really jazzed about Cobbs and Cobbs was a ball of positive energy around Redskins Park.    I guess will see how he does with the Saints. 

[Conn]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Finlay's podcast with Keim, both saying the FO was really jazzed about Cobbs and Cobbs was a ball of positive energy around Redskins Park.    I guess will see how he does with the Saints. 

 

More embarrassing is that he chose the Saints. No surprise generally, given the differences in the franchises. But it's more embarrassing when you consider that we have no WR1 or even really WR2, the path to relevance is clear. Meanwhile the Saints have all sorts of guys and will likely cut him again when they need the spot, and he still got the hell out of here. 

[Skinsinparadise]

53 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

More embarrassing is that he chose the Saints. No surprise generally, given the differences in the franchises. But it's more embarrassing when you consider that we have no WR1 or even really WR2, the path to relevance is clear. Meanwhile the Saints have all sorts of guys and will likely cut him again when they need the spot, and he still got the hell out of here. 

 

Similar to Sudfeld choosing the Eagles a year plus ago.  But if they promoted the dude, it wouldn't be a choice.  Only reason why it was a choice was because the Saints put a claim in so the Redskins tried to rescue things.  If they promoted Cobbs, then the Saints wouldn't be in position to do it.  You got me if Cobbs excels.    I do recall some draft geeks had him ranked as high as a 3rd round talent and he was a surprise undrafted FA.  But if Cooley is right and he was tearing it up on the practice squad and the FO really dug him than it seems sloppy on their end to lose a young talent this late in the season when you got dudes on the roster like Floyd who do not seem like they are cutting it or part of this teams future

 

 

 

[RandyHolt]

This is all just so us.

 

Add that to the so us thread, lose a potential future superstar WR over stone hands Floyd, and yet still arent smart to enough to loot someones best QB they are trying to stash on the PS, and continue to get older and older at QB.

 

Vets out of the league >>> The future

 

Actually, vets out of the league ARE OUR future