The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, TK said:

Wouldn’t surprise me if Schaffer takes a meeting elsewhere, only to have it at least result in a pay raise here. I say because last year I believe that I was hearing that he wasn’t interested in a GM//President role. 

 

Now, if y’all remember ol Jim Zorn then you’ll know why you don’t want Gruden gone. Zorn wasn’t able to hire his own staff. He inherited coaches  that were still under contract. If Jay gets let go, the next guy in here will be in herating every coach still under contract. 

 

So, I only want Gruden gone if a new regime has been put in place above him and performs an evaluation. And, to your point, I would only want him gone if it meant a complete re-boot. 

 

Do you know for sure that we wouldn't axe Allen and all those underneath...building from scratch around guys like Schaffer/Smith? Because if that option is off the table, then I'd rather just come back with Gruden for another year or two. 

[HardcoreZorn]

So Bruce went from being heavily phased out to the point that he wasn't even aware of guys coming in for workouts, to now heavily involved in player rotations? If true, he needs to GTFO but consider me skeptical at best on that reporting.

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

So Bruce went from being heavily phased out to the point that he wasn't even aware of guys coming in for workouts, to now heavily involved in player rotations? If true, he needs to GTFO but consider me skeptical at best on that reporting.

 

Finlay and Sheehan typically aren't the fly crap against the wall types.  Finlay might actually be the friendliest beat reporter to Bruce and likes to give a modified version of what you like to say which is fans are too harsh about him.  So considering the source, I trust Finlay in particular.   And he said it in a way where he wasn't saying its just once in a blue moon but a pattern. 

 

As for bringing in Peterson, if you recall part of the humor of the story was Doug telling it in a way like he was a kid playing hooky and got away with it (Schaffer being the lead) and said Bruce wasn't happy about it.   

 

But regardless even if that wasn't so, bringing in dudes for workouts versus pushing in season roster/playing time are two different animals. 

 

As for the phase out line, you have a point there -- looks like Bruce has had an apparent resurgence at least in some form this season if you follow people who cover this team.  

 

Edit:  listening to Craig Hoffman talk about some roster decisions, gives the vibe that its a bit of a free for all.  Sometimes this guy gets what he wants, sometimes the other guy.  To me, again, its the problem when you got all these guys running around the kitchen.  And also to me its why I am fixated on who has the last say and ultimate call which is Bruce regardless of how talented the underlings are.  The guy with the final say is a big big deal. 

[wit33]

 

12 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

So Bruce went from being heavily phased out to the point that he wasn't even aware of guys coming in for workouts, to now heavily involved in player rotations? If true, he needs to GTFO but consider me skeptical at best on that reporting.

 

Whatever narrative that feeds the masses, especially during a 4 game losing streak lol

 

This is not an opinion on Bruce, as I understand those who want him out. It’s just funny, the reporting— In my opinion, the media knows very little about the inter workings of the FO, especially after Shanny left. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Whatever narrative that feeds the masses, especially during a 4 game losing streak lol

 

This is not an opinion on Bruce, as I understand those who want him out. It’s just funny, the reporting— In my opinion, the media knows very little about the inter workings of the FO, especially after Shanny left. 

 

 

It was said yesterday after a win.  As for Finlay and Sheehan just making things I'd guess just for kicks.  You never know but I'd be surprised. 

[wit33]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It was said yesterday after a win.  As for Finlay and Sheehan just making things up just for kicks.  You never know but I'd be surprised. 

 

There was rumblings I thought of Bruce’s involvement leading up to the game? Maybe I’m wrong. My point was more he current state of the team and head hunting going on by fans and media (not saying it’s wrong, but the story satisfies the appetite of the majority). 

 

Side note, Sheehan loves to get fan base riled up and will do anything to bring publicity to his podcast. Don’t blame him in the least. Not as familiar with Findlay outside of guest appearances. 

 

Not a case or right or wrong, but my guess would be these stories wouldn’t come out if the Skins were sitting at 9-5 or so. 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

There was rumblings I thought of Bruce’s involvement leading up to the game? Maybe I’m wrong. My point was more he current state of the team and head hunting going on by fans and media (not saying it’s wrong, but the story satisfies the appetite of the majority). 

 

Side note, Sheehan loves to get fan base riled up and will do anything to bring publicity to his podcast. Don’t blame him in the least. Not as familiar with Findlay outside of guest appearances. 

 

Not a case or right or wrong, but my guess would be these stories wouldn’t come out if the Skins were sitting at 9-5 or so. 

 

It came out organically in a conversation about Nicholson yesterday on Sheehan's podcast and why he hasn't played much and then Sheehan led him in that direction and Finlay hit it hard.  I was actually surprised because I've noticed the two most careful reporters from my observation to hit Bruce has been Keim and Finlay.  Finlay flat out defends Bruce sometimes which is rare.  I think part of that method to the madness is I've heard multiple reporters say Bruce doesn't look kindly on anyone who isn't nice about him on air and typically boycotts said show/reporter as a consequence.  

 

Finlay has been able to get Bruce multiple times to do interviews with him so he's a rare reporter who Bruce trusts.  So I doubt Finlay loves Sheehan flaunting that podcast but to your point yeah for Sheehan he'd want attention to his podcast -- but for Finlay I think its likely a loser for him.  

 

Finlay's sources I think are typically good.  I singled Finlay out years back after I had a chat with Scot because Finlay later on nailed some of the same things I got directly from Scot.

[OVCChairman]

2 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

There was rumblings I thought of Bruce’s involvement leading up to the game? Maybe I’m wrong. My point was more he current state of the team and head hunting going on by fans and media (not saying it’s wrong, but the story satisfies the appetite of the majority). 

 

Side note, Sheehan loves to get fan base riled up and will do anything to bring publicity to his podcast. Don’t blame him in the least. Not as familiar with Findlay outside of guest appearances. 

 

Not a case or right or wrong, but my guess would be these stories wouldn’t come out if the Skins were sitting at 9-5 or so. 

 

 

They wouldn't be coming out because nobody would be questioning the direction of the franchise if we were sitting at 9-5.  

 

Findlay stands to lose quite a bit if he runs his mouth about something that isn't true.  Sheehan is just a radio guy but Findlay is 106.7's beat reporter, so he could find himself being unfavorable to Bruce and others... imho.   Part of me is actually surprised that Russell hasn't been shunned (he may have) because of what he said about Bruce and the growing frustration within the organization.  My assumption that he hasn't can only be justified with the idea that's it's accurate.  Dan may be best friends with Bruce, but if he was supremely confident I wouldnt put it past him to try to mute Russell, or try to limit the relationship between 106.7 and the team.  

[Skinsinparadise]

not sure where this belongs but more problems

 

 

 

 

 

[RandyHolt]

It wouldn't surprise me to hear that Bruce wants the best from inside Redskins Park to move on. And does everything in his power to facilitate it.  Selling it as, we don't want to hold you back blah blah.

 

As to his meddling, all it takes is one high profile event (signing Alex Smith) to make it easy to say he is meddling.  Getting Smith may be the only thing he did of significance (recently), for all we know.

 

We might as well hope to make the playoffs since the injury bug coupled with a 6-3 start makes him a no brainer for Dan to retain. If it weren't for the bad breaks. Pun possibly intended.

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

As to his meddling, all it takes is one high profile event (signing Alex Smith) to make it easy to say he is meddling.  Getting Smith may be the only thing he did of significance (recently), for all we know.

 

 

What made the Finlay comments interesting is he flat out says Bruce is involved a lot with roster decisions including playing time for players.  It wasn't him explaining an isolated incident and people extrapolated maybe its a sign of a lot more.  Finlay flat out goes it happens a lot.

 

Any reporter could be wrong including Finlay but I take him somewhat seriously because he's typically on the money and if anything he seems protective of his relationship with Bruce because he's one of the rare beat guys who can get him to do an interview with him.

20 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

Russell hasn't been shunned (he may have) because of what he said about Bruce and the growing frustration within the organization.  My assumption that he hasn't can only be justified with the idea that's it's accurate.  Dan may be best friends with Bruce, but if he was supremely confident I wouldnt put it past him to try to mute Russell, or try to limit the relationship between 106.7 and the team.  

 

Dan likes to mute his critics by helping them get new jobs -- ala JLC and J. Reid.  As for Russell, his source seems to be someone in that FO who doesn't care for Bruce -- be fascinating to find out who his deep throat source/sources are.  But whoever it is they've been on fire with Russell breaking the Scot story, the Doug hire -- nailing D coordinator names for interviews before other beat guys had them, etc.

[RandyHolt]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

What made the Finlay comments interesting is he flat out says Bruce is involved a lot with roster decisions including playing time for players.  It wasn't him explaining an isolated incident and people extrapolated maybe its a sign of a lot more.  Finlay flat out goes it happens a lot.

 

 

The playing time is disturbing. That points to an ego maniac in damage control.  Play the Bama guys or else!!!1!

 

Only, if they don't play well, he looks like an idiot.  That's a chance he is willing to take. I cannot recall a football GM dictating snap counts, but have heard about it in hockey. Of course there are 80+ games so a GM clamoring for a guy he brought in to get TOI is less meddlesome.

 

What coach is going to want to come here., or heck, anyone below Allen...

[JSSkinz]

If Bruce is telling the coaches who to play and how many reps they should get that's insane.

 

 

[sempre_victrix]

4 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

If Bruce is telling the coaches who to play and how many reps they should get that's insane.

 

 

 

Even more insane would be any of the coaching staff listening to him.

 

If this is true, and I find it incredibly hard to believe, then there is no excuse when it comes to cleaning house.  Who wants a coaching staff full of feckless boot lickers?  No wonder the players don't respect this team.

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

The playing time is disturbing. That points to an ego maniac in damage control.  Play the Bama guys or else!!!1!

 

Only, if they don't play well, he looks like an idiot.  That's a chance he is willing to take. I cannot recall a football GM dictating snap counts, but have heard about it in hockey. Of course there are 80+ games so a GM clamoring for a guy he brought in to get TOI is less meddlesome.

 

What coach is going to want to come here., or heck, anyone below Allen...

 

If people want a new coach - you got to remove Allen from the process IMO.

 

If I am playing the part of having Bruce's back to go devil's advocate, the nicest thing I can say is this -- I think there is a good chance he's not doing the evaluation of players so its more likely about him digesting OTHER people's advice.  So its like me listening to lets say different commentators on CNBC about different stocks and then I go with my gut as to which comments move me most.    So i am not evaluating the stocks myself but judging the evaluations made by others.    

 

So lets take the idea of not rotating the D lineman this year the way they did last year.  I'd bet its not an original idea that he came up with but instead something someone in that building said and he goes -- yeah you are right, that's what we should do.   And Finlay suggested that happens a lot in that building.

 

To me the problem with all of that is two fold

 

1.  The guy judging other people's opinions about personnel should be a guy that is an actual expert in personnel and can judge those opinions properly.  A personnel guy can weigh different opinions from other scouts-personnel guys with his own vantage point and experience.  That's why the Browns for example didn't just stop at bringing in Dorsey but also put stud underlings under him. 

 

2.  The nicest picture that's painted about this front office is that perhaps there isn't a totalitarian approach and everyone has their day and wins their share of battles as for the roster.  To me that's a loser's approach too.  From my experience in management if you have so many cooks in the kitchen where everyone gets their bone -- the aggregate result is disjointed where the approach is a little of this and a little of that but on the whole it doesn't have any overriding theme and that weakens the plan. 

[JSSkinz]

1 minute ago, sempre_victrix said:

 

Even more insane would be any of the coaching staff listening to him.

 

If this is true, and I find it incredibly hard to believe, then there is no excuse when it comes to cleaning house.  Who wants a coaching staff full of feckless boot lickers?  No wonder the players don't respect this team.

I find it a bit unbelievable as well but the source is good, I wonder if we're missing a huge chunk of context here.
 

If I was Jay I would resign, it just doesn't make any sense for Bruce to get involved to this extent unless he's trying to sabotage the team.

 

I need more data, if this is true it will piss me off to epic proportions.

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, JSSkinz said:

I find it a bit unbelievable as well but the source is good, I wonder if we're missing a huge chunk of context here.
 

If I was Jay I would resign, it just doesn't make any sense for Bruce to get involved to this extent unless he's trying to sabotage the team.

 

I need more data, if this is true it will piss me off to epic proportions.

 

I posted the podcast on this thread if you want to hear it.  Finlay was fairly explicit.  And like I said in another post, I doubt he's happy he put it out there because he's one of the rare beat guys with a good relationship with Bruce.  So Finlay might want to backpedal some.  

 

The nicest spin I could put on it is something that was discussed today on 106.7 - sometimes Bruce wins, sometimes Jay wins, sometimes someone else wins when it comes to roster-playing time stuff.   Everyone has their bone and win some battles and lose others.  But Finlay was clear as a bell Bruce interjects and insists at times and he also said it in a way where it was clear that's how he rolls as opposed to be an odd exception.

 

Keep in mind, Bruce is the self designated guy who does challenges for the team.  Do other teams have their GM do the challenges -- am thinking no but maybe I am wrong.  Cooley, Bruce's pal, did a segment last year about how Bruce isn't the type to give up power and the fantasy that fans have that Bruce would voluntarily hire a personnel guy that will have final say -- is just that a fantasy.

 

The idea that Bruce gives Jay directives as to playing time/roster doesn't seem out of character.    But I admit even I am a little surprised -- in my book besides the power grab it doesn't show much faith in the coach. 

[OVCChairman]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I posted the podcast on this thread if you want to hear it.  Finlay was fairly explicit.  And like I said in another post, I doubt he's happy he put it out there because he's one of the rare beat guys with a good relationship with Bruce.  So Finlay might want to backpedal some.  

 

The nicest spin I could put on it is something that was discussed today on 106.7 - sometimes Bruce wins, sometimes Jay wins, sometimes someone else wins when it comes to roster-playing time stuff.   Everyone has their bone and win some battles and lose others.  But Finlay was clear as a bell Bruce interjects and insists at times and he also said it in a way where it was clear that's how he rolls as opposed to be an odd exception.

 

Keep in mind, Bruce is the self designated guy who does challenges for the team.  Do other teams have their GM do the challenges -- am thinking no but maybe I am wrong.  Cooley, Bruce's pal, did a segment last year about how Bruce isn't the type to give up power and the fantasy that fans have that Bruce would voluntarily hire a personnel guy that will have final say -- is just that a fantasy.

 

The idea that Bruce gives Jay directives as to playing time/roster doesn't seem out of character.    But I admit even I am a little surprised -- in my book besides the power grab it doesn't show much faith in the coach. 

 

 

The sad thing is looking at it... I can absolutely see how he would do this because he of all people can see the direction of his ways.  He's on his 3rd HC, 2 of which are HOF coaches.  We've taken 1 true shot at a 'GM' and it blew up.  We've been AT BEST middle of the road regarding our record, and we have never under his watch been viewed as a truly talented team.  I'm not saying he WANTS to lose, but it's almost like he's trying to completely control the narrative and say to Dan.... "SEE, I did what i could but there was no fixing it."  It wouldn't surprise me if now Jay is jettisoned and Bruce has been in Dan's ear to try and shift the focus.  The "look at when I drafted" and "look at the players I picked up.... I can't help that Alex broke his leg."  That's why he was so pissed about AP getting picked up, because he's trying to make it look like he's the only competent vote at the table.   

[Unbias]

23 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

I find it a bit unbelievable as well but the source is good, I wonder if we're missing a huge chunk of context here.
 

If I was Jay I would resign, it just doesn't make any sense for Bruce to get involved to this extent unless he's trying to sabotage the team.

 

I need more data, if this is true it will piss me off to epic proportions.

 

I don't think this is an option. Coaches salaries are guaranteed. If he resigns he's giving up I think over $4M. 

 

He'd be better just to coast and get fired. Unfortunately that's his best option. 

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

 It wouldn't surprise me if now Jay is jettisoned and Bruce has been in Dan's ear to try and shift the focus.  The "look at when I drafted" and "look at the players I picked up.... I can't help that Alex broke his leg."  That's why he was so pissed about AP getting picked up, because he's trying to make it look like he's the only competent vote at the table.   

 

I didn't think about it from that angle but maybe.   I'll say though I doubt it -- unless Jay and Bruce are on the outs.  Finlay also didn't say this was a new thing just this season -- so this might have been the drill from the get go.    

 

Think about the story about how Scot and Jay had to talk Bruce and Dan about benching RG3 for a different QB.  We assumed back then that it was a special circumstance because it involved RG3.  But otherwise why the heck does the coach have to convince anyone about who should start?  So maybe that was a unique circumstance then or maybe it was how things roll there.

 

I am doubting Bruce is going nuts and filling out the lineups for example but the picture that I think Finlay painted is Bruce will weigh in and he gets what he wants typically and  its not just once in a blue moon 

[Unbias]

On 11/22/2017 at 10:05 AM, Makaveli said:

It has almost been 8 full seasons since Bruce Allen has joined the team. I would agree that we are no longer the laughingstock we once were under Vinny Cerrato's leadership, but what has really changed?

 

Vinny Cerrato, 9 seasons (2000, 2002-2009)
Record: 62-82 (.431)
2 playoff seasons
0 division titles
4 last place finishes

 

Bruce Allen, 7 seasons (2010-2016)
Record: 45-66-1 (.405)
2 playoff seasons
2 division titles
4 last place finishes

 

Time will tell how the remainder of this season will play out.

 

 

I agree that the future is unknown, but to fully look at the past we should add one name: 

 

Charlie Casserly, 11 seasons (1989-1999)

Record: 89-86-1 (.0509)

4 playoff seasons (1 Superbowl win)

2 division titles

2 last place finishes

 

Why do I bring up Charlie? He was coming off a 10 win season where the team lost in the NFC Divisional game when he was fired. Snyder, in all his brilliance, went from Casserly to Cerrato. He downgraded football IQ and suites in one move!

 

I'd add let's look at the trend. From Casserly to Cerrato to Allen the team has gotten worse. Do any of us have any faith in Snyder actually picking the right person for the job? 

[OVCChairman]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I didn't think about it from that angle but maybe.   I'll say though I doubt it -- unless Jay and Bruce are on the outs.  Finlay also didn't say this was a new thing just this season -- so this might have been the drill from the get go.    

 

Think about the story about how Scot and Jay had to talk Bruce and Dan about benching RG3 for a different QB.  We assumed back then that it was a special circumstance because it involved RG3.  But otherwise why the heck does the coach have to convince anyone about who should start?  So maybe that was a unique circumstance then or maybe it was how things roll there.

 

I am doubting Bruce is going nuts and filling out the lineups for example but the picture that I think Finlay painted is Bruce will weigh in and he gets what he wants typically and  its not just once in a blue moon 

 

 

I keep thinking back to the movie Money Ball with Brad Pitt where he walked in and kept telling the manager to play specific guys in order to fit in line with what they were doing.  Now i don't for a second give Bruce enough credit to put together a team to that depth based on analytics and stats but who knows?   Another thing he could be doing is trying to inflate the image that his value is higher than it actually is.  I've always understood that in the professional world, the best way to have job security is to make it so they need more than 1 person to replace you.  Bruce may be interjecting himself into multiple areas in order to try and convince Dan that it's not that easy to replace him.  What worse about that is that his influence in multiple areas is failing but that's likely not the picture he's painting in the board room.  

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, Unbias said:

 

I agree that the future is unknown, but to fully look at the past we should add one name: 

 

Charlie Casserly, 11 seasons (1989-1999)

Record: 89-86-1 (.0509)

4 playoff seasons (1 Superbowl win)

2 division titles

2 last place finishes

 

Why do I bring up Charlie? He was coming off a 10 win season where the team lost in the NFC Divisional game when he was fired. Snyder, in all his brilliance, went from Casserly to Cerrato. He downgraded football IQ and suites in one move!

 

I'd add let's look at the trend. From Casserly to Cerrato to Allen the team has gotten worse. Do any of us have any faith in Snyder actually picking the right person for the job? 

 

Charlie is a nice guy and would bring needed class on that front but on another front he wasn't IMO great at drafting.  We had some horrible drafts under his watch.

 

If they make a change I'd like an up and comer preferably.  Kyle Smith would be nice or someone of that ilk.

[JSSkinz]

16 minutes ago, Unbias said:

 

I don't think this is an option. Coaches salaries are guaranteed. If he resigns he's giving up I think over $4M. 

 

He'd be better just to coast and get fired. Unfortunately that's his best option. 

I get it and what I said was reactionary but come on, GM's aren't coaches, some GM's do have some knowledge of scheme and X's and O's but Bruce is not on that list.