The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[bird_1972]

3 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

I'm not buying it that nobody will want the job, we may need to dig deep and look at a younger more unproven coaching talent but I wish that we would do that anyway.

 

The last thing I would want is McCarthy or one of these other old retread coaches.

 

Rest assured, with Snyder that is exactly what you'll get. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

14 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

I'm not buying it that nobody will want the job, we may need to dig deep and look at a younger more unproven coaching talent but I wish that we would do that anyway.

 

The last thing I would want is McCarthy or one of these other old retread coaches.

 

Well, I think in these cases "nobody" is always hyperbole. Obviously if you keep lowering the bar someone in America will coach the NFL Washington Redskins!! The point is, how far down do you have to go? In some ways, this is how we ended up choosing between Fassel and Zorn in 2008. 

 

If you have to settle for a guy who most teams don't believe is ready, then more than likely you'll end up with someone who is in over his head. 

[KDawg]

25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I said almost the exact same thing in one of the other Gruden threads. If you keep Bruce you have to keep Jay. Even if you find someone willing to take the job, they will be saddled by Bruce Allen. At least in keeping Jay, we keep continuity. That's so sad when you think about it.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

 

New to us but have injury histories... although perhaps nothing to write home about.

Paul Richardson. 

Alex Smith.

 

 

 

I liked Richardson the player, good speed, good hands so I like the signing from that stand point but as I pointed out on the FA theme his injury history was vast so that's the thing to monitor -- 2 ACL tears among other things -- the 2017 season was Richardson's really first shot to play the whole season healthy.

 

I'd add Bruce Allen's line in the off season which seemed at the time an explanation for why they went light into FA was that the team has a ton of players coming back from injury so its like all these guys coming back are similar to having new acquisitions to help the team. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I said almost the exact same thing in one of the other Gruden threads. If you keep Bruce you have to keep Jay. Even if you find someone willing to take the job, they will be saddled by Bruce Allen. At least in keeping Jay, we keep continuity. That's so sad when you think about it.

 

Bruce being able to fire Jay would actually be the only outcome that truly pisses me off. If we have Bruce hunting for a new coach, then we've missed the mark big time. 

 

I can handle Jay going if Bruce is let go above him. I can handle Jay staying if the "new guy" decides he wants more time to evaluate him. But Jay being let go while Bruce stays would be a huge hit to my engagement...not because I love Jay, but just because it means the organization really has no idea where the major problems are. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Scot and not Bruce, Jon tell me its not so.  The irony would be some reporters saying Jon Gruden doesn't care for Bruce anymore and the rumors about Bruce going to the Raiders is a leak from Bruce himself to give the vibe that he's in demand.

 

 

 

[Est.1974]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Scot and not Bruce, Jon tell me its not so.  The irony would be some reporters saying Jon Gruden doesn't care for Bruce anymore and the rumors about Bruce going to the Raiders is a leak from Bruce himself to give the vibe that he's in demand.

 

 

 

 

Clearly we'd all take Scot over Bruce by a million miles, however I'd add that in my opinion Scot's tenure here has been vastly overrated.

[Est.1974]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

Couldn't it be that the general manager and roster creators have a reliance on on injury prone players?

 

Good post, and I agree that is a clear issue we continue to roll with year on year.

 

However, I'd add that Gruden has his fingerprints all over some of these roster decisions and should be held accountable as well.

[Est.1974]

27 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I said almost the exact same thing in one of the other Gruden threads. If you keep Bruce you have to keep Jay. Even if you find someone willing to take the job, they will be saddled by Bruce Allen. At least in keeping Jay, we keep continuity. That's so sad when you think about it.

 

Wow that is depressing. I can't buy into the notion that we tolerate average head coaching because Allen is a complete tool. May as well get another HC in who will sink us lower and raise the odds of Allen being torpedoed.

 

No point staying in a dead marriage. It will still be dead in 10 years however hard you try.

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

Wow that is depressing. I can't buy into the notion that we tolerate average head coaching because Allen is a complete tool. May as well get another HC in who will sink us lower and raise the odds of Allen being torpedoed.

 

No point staying in a dead marriage. It will still be dead in 10 years however hard you try.

 

But that's not how Bruce Allen will look at it. His best bet is Jay Gruden.

 

And given the tweet above by @Skinsinparadise I don't think it's unreasonable to assume, if the tweet is accurate, that Bruce fell out of Jon's favor due to something his brother may have said. It's also interesting that Scot is being considered. You know Jon spoke with Jay about those guys. 

[JSSkinz]

46 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

If you have to settle for a guy who most teams don't believe is ready, then more than likely you'll end up with someone who is in over his head. 

 

Like Sean Mcvay?  How many people thought he was ready at 29 years old?  I think there's talent everywhere you just have to find it, most of the teams just pencil whip the process and take the next O or D coordinator from whatever team had a good offense or defense the previous year. 

 

Look at the guy who just got fired at the Vikes, they were talking about him being a head coach next year and he couldn't even run the offense at the team he was currently at.

 

This simple-minded approach to finding a new head coach is why we are where we are and why so many coaches fail, IMO.

[Est.1974]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

But that's not how Bruce Allen will look at it. His best bet is Jay Gruden

 

Dare say that is true as well.

 

Not sure what that says for Jay Gruden though. I get he is very well paid. But imagine knowing you were Bruce's **** for the next two years.

 

We might see Jay on TMZ soon. 👊

[Andre The Giant]

28 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Scot and not Bruce, Jon tell me its not so.  The irony would be some reporters saying Jon Gruden doesn't care for Bruce anymore and the rumors about Bruce going to the Raiders is a leak from Bruce himself to give the vibe that he's in demand.

 

 

 

This is interesting.  I’d assumed that one of the reasons Scot was fired was that he and Jay couldn’t work together. Jon wouldn’t be interested in Scot if Jay didn’t like him. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 minute ago, JSSkinz said:

 

Like Sean Mcvay?  How many people thought he was ready at 29 years old?  I think there's talent everywhere you just have to find it, most of the teams just pencil whip the process and take the next O or D coordinator from whatever team had a good offense or defense the previous year. 

 

Look at the guy who just got fired at the Vikes, they were talking about him being a head coach next year and he couldn't even run the offense at the team he was currently at.

 

This simple-minded approach to finding a new head coach is why we are where we are and why so many coaches fail, IMO.

 

A couple things...

 

The fact that people outside of Washington were interested in McVay pretty much means he wasn't an example of a team having to stretch to give him a job. There was talk for almost a year leading up that hire that there was a lot of eyes on McVay as an up-and-comer. 

 

Also, even if McVay was an example of reaching, just because it works out occasionally doesn't mean it's the right path or approach. 

 

Anyone who is ultimately hired to coach a team could turn into the next genius. There's really no proven science to it or teams wouldn't miss more than half the time. There's been no great profile. For example, retreads have succeeded and failed miserably. So have "hot coordinators" who seem ready to be the next guy. So have special teams coaches, for crying out loud. 

 

Not related to your post...but another point I want to add...

 

Generally speaking, organizations who are good at reading between the lines, identifying qualities in the person, etc. have hit more often on hiring coaches. The Steelers are technically 3 for 3 in the Super Bowl era. They haven't followed any noticeable pattern (and you could argue how much credit the actual coaches should get vs. the organization itself). The Redskins haven't demonstrated that they have ANY idea how to evaluate a coaching prospect under Snyder (and arguably even under Cooke). Since Gibbs left under two different owners, we've swung and missed by:

 

1) Promoting a strong, well-respected coach with championship pedigree from within

2) Hiring the consensus "heir apparent" to an up-and-coming dynasty

3) Bringing in a proven veteran coach (Marty, Shanny)

4) Resurrecting a team legend

5) Going outside the box and hiring a QB coach who maybe never got a shot

6) Hiring a well-respected, "probably ready to lead a team" guy (Gruden)

 

So, what we need more than anything is someone else to help us decide on our next coach. I don't trust anyone in-house to get it right. Maybe that's because we are bad at it. Maybe it's because the organization makes it difficult to succeed. Maybe it's a little of both. 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, Andre The Giant said:

This is interesting.  I’d assumed that one of the reasons Scot was fired was that he and Jay couldn’t work together. Jon wouldn’t be interested in Scot if Jay didn’t like him. 

 

Nope that wasn't one of the reasons.   Jay spoke highly of Scot and said he liked him even when Scot was let go.  Scot told me personally how much he digs Jay as an evaluator and working with him -- I talked about it at the time when it happened years back. 

[JSSkinz]

7 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

So, what we need more than anything is someone else to help us decide on our next coach. I don't trust anyone in-house to get it right. Maybe that's because we are bad at it. Maybe it's because the organization makes it difficult to succeed. Maybe it's a little of both. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[RWJ]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

That's why we replace Allen with Schaffer and make Kyle Smith the new GM and let him pick the next new HC.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, RWJ said:

That's why we replace Allen with Schaffer and make Kyle Smith the new GM and let him pick the next new HC.

 

 

 

 

[skins island connection]

Bruce Allen being removed from the Washington Redskin organization completely should be priority #1.

Jay I'm not very fond of either, but there's absolutely no doubt if Bruce Allen is with this team next year, or even a month after this season is over with, it will be a **** slap to the fans who spend their hard-earned money to come watch this **** show week after week year after year.

 

There are already pieces within the organization to make these changes,but I think Dan wants to do it after  season's end; but he damn well better do it!

[KDawg]

I don't understand the tweets from George Carmi (not sure who he is, either, not that it matters).

 

If Bruce is removed it will be in training camp or before week 1? How much sense does that make?

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

I don't understand the tweets from George Carmi (not sure who he is, either, not that it matters).

 

If Bruce is removed it will be in training camp or before week 1? How much sense does that make?

 

I listened to the segment he was quoting from last night which was from a Finlay podcast.  I've been listening to Finlay all season long talk about the subject and he's been a bit all over the place -- in that segment he said that he's be surprised if Dan cleans house completely but thinks he will do one thing, maybe as to coaching, maybe as to the front office.  If its the front office, he thinks Dan promotes from within versus hires someone new from the out side and if that happens don't be surprised if it doesn't happen until later perhaps after the draft as opposed to right after the season.

 

I'll say from listening to different people this week it seems like most are on this train:

 

A.  They don't know what happens and wouldn't be surprised about anything -- either Dan makes moves or he doesn't.   There doesn't seem a leaning but if there is its closer to keeping them here

B.  The next 2 games might be an X factor.   If you want a change, best thing would be a Giants game part 2 in one of these games.

 

some other things I learned though none of that surprised me:

 

A.  Dan and Bruce pay no attention to social media so are often oblivious to fan sentiment -- Bruce in particular likes to bask in the hardcore fans who will live and die with whatever the team does -- all the people he meets tailgating, etc and characterizes the  fans sentiment that way.  Some people in the front office know that Bruce is despised but they aren't sure that Dan knows (Finlay just doubled down on that point just now)

 

B.  If Dan (JLC's narrative) thinks that his right hand man in being picked on by the media his style if anything would be to defiantly not give in and keep them around because he hates to give into media pressure and that's how Vinny stayed longer than he should have and ditto now with Bruce.

 

To sum it up, Dan has to see fan discontentment in his face.  If you guys recall the season that led to Vinny's departure was the one where fans were bringing signs to the stadium -- he was flooded I recall from mail from us, etc.  But Dan is in a cocoon otherwise -- for all he knows Bruce is beloved by the fans but the poor sap is just picked on by the WP but who cares since he hates them, too and the last thing he's going to do is cave in to them.

 

Finlay just went a minute ago  "Bruce is involved in game time decisions..This is a guy who is heavily involved" 

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Finlay just went a minute ago  "Bruce is involved in game time decisions..This is a guy who is heavily involved" 

 

This is actually worse than anything else that could be said. People were concerned when Snyder was involved in team decisions, but this is just as bad. You hire a GM who hires a coach. The GM and coach talk about qualities in players and they go and get those players. The GM and the coach should have regular conversations about playing time and where each guy falls. The GM's opinions should be heard. But ultimately, you hired a coach you believe in. If you don't, they shouldn't be the coach. You let them make the decisions.

 

I was at a coaching clinic a few years back. And trust me when I say this, a lot of the stuff in those clinics is pretty forgettable if you're regularly receiving info about the game and keeping yourself informed. But man, I remember one "lecture" that hit home so hard. 

 

A former Raiders coach was explaining his meetings with Al Davis.

 

Davis would have him in the office and ask, "how are things?" in his first year.

 

He said, "I'd tell him how they were. Things like, man, 58 is a little slow. 25 doesn't move laterally all that well. 38 isn't tackling for ****."

 

Davis nodded and he went on his way.

 

Davis would have regular meetings with him asking about the players on his unit. A few weeks later he called him in again:

 

Davis: "How are things?"

 

The coach giving the lecture said, "I told him the same **** as I did weeks prior. 58 is a little slow. 25 doesn't move laterally all that well. 38 isn't tackling for ****".

 

The coach paused and looked up at us for a few seconds, but it felt like minutes. His face wrinkled and you could almost see cringe on his face. He shook his head.

 

"Al Davis looked me right in the eye. He nodded at me as he had weeks prior. Meeting after meeting. He took a deep breath (likely with a cigar in his mouth) and he spoke:

 

Davis: "Let me ask you another question..."

 

The coach interjected his thoughts in his head, "Oh... That's different..."

 

Davis: "What the **** did I hire you for if you can't fix this ****?"

 

The coach paused again... Then he continued the story: "The next week when he called me in, I told him how ****ing amazing everyone was and how god damn great they've come along".

 

And for the record, as an aside, his unit really wasn't all that bad to begin with. But they actually did improve in that week span.

[Skinsinparadise]

35 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

This is actually worse than anything else that could be said. People were concerned when Snyder was involved in team decisions, but this is just as bad. You hire a GM who hires a coach. The GM and coach talk about qualities in players and they go and get those players. The GM and the coach should have regular conversations about playing time and where each guy falls. The GM's opinions should be heard. But ultimately, you hired a coach you believe in. If you don't, they shouldn't be the coach. You let them make the decisions.

 

 

Agree.  I thought it was strange enough that Bruce is the guy in the booth that does challenges -- unless other GMs do it and I am missing it.  But its another sign that Bruce likes to involve himself on game day.  I shrugged off that Jay-Scot had to convince Dan AND Bruce to bench RG3 and start another QB -- figuring that was about a special circumstance.  But yeah this is the second time Finlay has doubled down that Bruce messes with the coaching element and said he does so quite a bit.  Sheehan said he heard the same. And Finlay is probably the most friendly guy to Bruce among the beat people.

 

Finlay also went back to the Alex Smith trade and said coaches weren't aware the deal was being done but were cool with it once they heard about it.   Finlay suggested a similar dynamic with Clinton-Dix and he more or less implied in a podcast that Clinton-Dix is likely getting lots of playing time in spite of his struggles so the decision makers who made the trade can ultimately be vindicated.

 

The idea that the GM makes moves without consulting with coaches -- I understand that but when that also then factors in said players playing time that's taking it a step too far.

 

And to preempt the few people (not you) who like to defend Bruce.  Yeah I don't think Bruce is doing his own scouting.  But I'll stick with the analogy I used the other day its like me watching CNBC and listening to talking heads tout different stocks -- then I pick which stock suits me based on what I heard. 

 

So lets say its Alex Smith, I recall a narrative that O'Connell liked the dude on watching tape and if Bruce is moved by what O'Connell said -- then hey lets go get that dude.  Then surprise, surprise -- Doug, Jay guess who I got yesterday, you got a new QB!!!   Back in 2014, Bruce subscribed to Scot's scouting services and strongly hinted in one of his interviews (back when it was cool for Bruce to like Scot) that they used it and that was part of why they hired Scot.     So yeah the picture is painted that Bruce isn't making his own evaluations but still he's the dude that's sorting through other people's ideas and making the ultimate decision -- and i think that's a big deal.

 

But to me, the whole process -- the personnel decisions and apparently Bruce messing with Jay seems warped.  Now the beat reporters have been consistent that Dan isn't himself doing any of this and Dan is likely thinking -- what gives damned if you do, damned if you don't.  But to me even if that's so, to me speaks even more about his ownership failures if his solution to removing himself and finding a mini-Dan and lets him rule the roost in an over the top heavy handed way just like he would during his spell of this stuff. 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.  I thought it was strange enough that Bruce is the guy in the booth that does challenges -- unless other GMs do it and I am missing it.  But its another sign that Bruce likes to involve himself on game day

 

 

 

Not sure how true this is, to be honest. I've seen Allen in the press box on game days and he's not anywhere near the replay booth. He's been in with the press for at least a game or two. Although I saw Scot much more often than I've seen Allen.