Kirk Cousins, halfway through 2017: your new fun stop for wild spasmodic gyrating and posting excitement!---M.E.T.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

7 hours ago, Jumbo said:

Critters like Bruce got eaten before they hit puberty where I grew up.

They are less stringy that way.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

10 minutes ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

It really is. Whether here or twitterville, if you make any statement to support the above by pointing out Kirk's inconsistency or areas in need of developing, you become a Hater, if you point out what he does well, they you are labeled a Kirkstan. Seems the Right/Left style argument has permeated every discussion everywhere. 

 

I can only speak for myself, but the haters: AntiKirks or NeverKirkers, whichever term you prefer are those who constantly needle, nitpick, move goal posts, create false narratives, etc. about Kirk.  They can't wait to tear him up, even in victory - just like the other night.

 

There is absolutely a segment of folks here that aren't necessarily sold on Kirk or at least at his price tag, with some legitimate concerns about building a roster around him.  Those folks don't fall under the AntiKirk or NeverKirker umbrella in my opinion. 

 

I find it funny when I get labeled a KirkStan by a few here, considering I got in late on the Kirk party.  I wasn't a believer in 2013 and 2014.  I've never once said that he was elite, great, potential hall of famer, any of that.  I just think he's more than good enough to win with and that's hard to find. 

[OVCChairman]

I honestly feel that if Kirk can take more changes (like he has this year) then he vaults himself from that 10-15 range, up into top 5.  I'm remembering 5 throws this season that would be labeled '50/50' balls.  Push the ball downfield and let the WR make a play. 

 

1. Doctson vs Oakland - TD

2. Pryor vs KC - TD

3. Prayer ball 1 vs SF near the end of the half - INT called back

4. Prayer ball 2 vs SF near the end of the half - INT upheld

5. Doctson vs Seattle - Long gain sets up game winning score.

 

 

I've always been an advocate at signing Kirk at the right price, but this could be a major step in his career.  Gaining that confidence that the WRs are not what they used to be.  That they can make the play clearly more often then not.  5 '50/50' attempts, 4 of those plays actually counted, and they percentage is VERY good.

 

 

That said, I still have the lingering memories of QBs past signing big time deals and instantly the team takes a step back.  It might be an unfair memory in my mind but it's there.  The question to ask is how many teams actually got BETTER after the QB signed a big deal?  Flacco in Balt, Stafford in Det (now they seem to be putting it together), Luck in Indy, Wilson in Seattle, Rodgers in GB, all instances that appear to have set the team way back.  The only real instance I can remember is Eli got a big deal and they won a SB after that.  I also am not exactly sure when Big Ben got his deal and the timeline regarding the SB win.  

 

I want Kirk here, but I'm worried what that does to the rest of the team.  Our WHOLE ILB corps are free agents after this season, add to that Breeland and Trent Murphy and that is a large amount of Salary cap that could be sacrificed.  I am desperate for QB consistency.  Stability at the position is so important for relevance, I just really hope it doesnt put us in a bad spot. 

 

[goskins10]

39 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

Where is this talent coming from with Cousin's possible  $30m per year taking up about 60% of our cap space for 2018.

 

 

 

Every time a new Cousins thread comes out I feel compelled to bring out the math. Since you provided some numbers I am going to use this as a starting point while also helping with your math since it just doesn't add up :-)  

 

The typical way this is discussed is in terms of the total cap allowance. For next year that is projected to be $168M. So a $30M salary would be 17.8% of the total cap. However you specifically say "Cap space" to are you saying that $30M is 60% of the $58.1M projected cap space for next year? That is still faulty math as that calculates to 51% but it's at least closer. 

 

Let's put %s aside since there is a clearly a math problem. Giving Kirk an average of $30M.yr would leave approximately $28M in cap space for FAs and draft picks. That ignores that an average $30M/yr salary would count less than $30M towards next year, but for now let's leave it. That does not seem very debilitating to me. Can we go on a spending spree? Of course not. And we do have some players that need contracts.  Zack Brown needs to be paid. I would like to see Breeland signed but we have depth there. Also there are a few contracts that could be reworked to provide cap space - Morgan Moses comes to mind. It just takes a little creativity and more importantly you need to draft well - a more relevant concern to me. More on that later. 

 

So you still have to pay a QB. You and some others have decided that $22M to $25M/yr is acceptable (somewhat arbitrary and ignores the actual market drivers, but Ok we will go with that.). So let's use the middle of say $23.5M/yr. That is $7.5M difference. While that is not insignificant, I just do not see how that money with a raising cap every year is as debilitating as you and others are making it. It is 1 or maybe 2 players in terms of FAs. And while I have problems with Bruce as a GM, he is very adept at managing the cap. 

 

I really do not and will not ever understand how after all the suffering this team has gone through at QB, we finally have a guy you can win with and people are so cavalier about - if he wants X, let him walk. People like to bring up Brees and Flacco but they were really terrible about drafting and who they signed as FAs. Yes, they lost a few players due to cap. But their real problems were due to poor talent evaluation. 

 

Now the last point is much more valid to me than the cap space issue. I have no doubt the money can be managed. But I have very little confidence that the current FO can make the right personnel decisions moving forward. Having more cap space can help offset some of that, but ultimately it's a losing situation. 

 

[goskins10]

9 hours ago, Jumbo said:

  

 

 

all true! so true this should be in caps! but all i have are these stupid explanation points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

speaking of caps as we all are,  he's also not even in the top tens cappytans of any type.

 

he's no cap'n ahab

he's no cap'n 'murika

he's no cap'n courageous

he's no cap'n kidd

he's no cap'n peirce

he's no cap'n hunnicutt

he's no cap'n morgan

he's no cap'n sparrow

he's no cap'n hook

hell, he's no cap'n tennille even

 

 

 

I love it when Jumbo forgets his meds. The entertainment value is off the charts...  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

What I have liked about Cousins during this sometimes ugly offensive season is the production he's putting up with far less around him. It seems as though he's maintaining a similar level of play for our passing game and doing it without Garcon, Jackson, and (mostly) Reed. He's also doing it lately with a rag-tag bunch of OL. In many ways, this is what many have wanted to see from him before being willing to pay him. 

 

If his numbers explode in the second half of the season once we get some of our team back, I think it's time to bite the bullet and lock him down. 

[purbeast]

10 hours ago, Unbias said:

I agree, but I think it's relevant in these talks. The game is never Qb vs Qb, but when watching a game it's rare to see such a stark contrast in athletic ability. 

 

Maybe another way of looking at this is as most fans were watching that game if they seriously thought about what Kirk would cost on a simplified level you think Wentz is worth that kind of money instead. By extension some would roll the die on getting the next Wentz and moving on from Kirk. 

Yes, because Went'z just fall out of the sky in the NFL and that plan has worked so well for the Redskins the past 20+ years.

 

Some of you are just waiting for a unicorn to just fall out of the sky and lead us to the promised land.  

 

What baffles me about this forum is that it's called "Extreme Skins" and in my mind that means we have die hard football people here who actually understand how football works, yet there are so many who clearly have no clue.

[SkinsFTW]

I think that the problem for the team signing KFC for 25+M  a year, from their viewpoint, is that doing so puts the ball in their court in regard to filling in the roster around Cousins and building a winning team. 

 

It's just so much easier to say "well we were 7-9 and competitive, if only we had a franchise qb."  and then constantly pretend that we have a chance with 2nd rates like Grossman, ?️, or a washed up Mcnugget. 

 

Look at the heat Ted Thompson and McCarthy get for failing to build around Rodgers and they even already have good receivers and an average defense, excellent kicker etc. Imagine Allen and Snyder in that situation and you can see why they are reluctant to do what is best for the team.

 

It'll instantly throw them on the hot seat.

[veteranskinsfan]

Great quote from Kirk yesterday- Those who know, know.   One of his coaches told him early in his career to stay confident and not focus on the naysayers.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

29 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

If his numbers explode in the second half of the season once we get some of our team back, I think it's time to bite the bullet and lock him down. 

This is a strange concern of mine.  Obviously I want to win and think the offense improving is a big part of that.  But at the same time, if he does put together a better second half of the season and we make the playoffs....that contract gets a bit more costly.

[Reaper Skins]

5 hours ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

Fifth:

Has it ever occurred to people that the perception of Cousins' agent playing hardball with Allen, driven by greed, is because, simply, Allen is just a massive douche? 

 

 

[carex]

13 hours ago, shk75 said:

He is also improving. People wanted him to stop throwing picks...and he has. People wanted him to play better in crunch time and he has two 4th quarter comebacks (SF and SEA). If we surround him with more talent he would be a top 5 QB no doubt.

 

of course to have do that we need money which means we need to pay him less, that's part of the issue.  I'm fine with Kik's abilities, I just sometimes feel his thought processes are self-defeating

[Audible_Red40]

42 minutes ago, veteranskinsfan said:

Great quote from Kirk yesterday- Those who know, know.   One of his coaches told him early in his career to stay confident and not focus on the naysayers.

Rams certainly appear to have got a good one here.  Look what he is doing with Goff and that team too.

 

Kudos to the young man.

[markmills67]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

What kind of data and math are you using here?

 

Your math is wrong, but besides that, I'm curious what you want to do with the money saved from letting Cousins go.  Purchase free agents?  To me, free agency is kind of like that $9 bottle of water they leave in your hotel room.  You laugh at the thought of paying $9 for the bottle of water.  But when you wake up hungover and dehydrated, that long walk to the vending machine seems daunting.  So you crack open that $9 water and guzzle it down.  The immediate disappearance of cottonmouth makes it feel worth it for a moment.  Checkout comes, you look at the bill and see that $9 water and hate yourself for it.

About $55m In cap space (I said about 60% of that figure). I only said cousin's isn't worth $30 ish per year, We will need to bring in some FA's in the off-season and the extra cap space could also be used to extend some players ( Sherff and Long etc), I would give Cousin's a maximum of $23m per year, if he or anyone else thinks he's worth close to $30m they are obviously delusional. 

 

HTTR 

[SWFLSkins]

 

 

[Jumbo]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

 

I find it funny when I get labeled a KirkStan by a few here, considering I got in late on the Kirk party.  I wasn't a believer in 2013 and 2014.  I've never once said that he was elite, great, potential hall of famer, any of that.  I just think he's more than good enough to win with and that's hard to find. 

 

 

You do good things for the forum here worth noting (separate from merit of any position taken, past or present):

 

You correctly identify your past participation as opposed to misrepresenting it.

 

You argue with persistence and even stubbornness at times, which describes most folks here, but you keep an open enough mind to be capable of movement and are not terminally fixed into your biases by your ego.

 

You display competent self-awareness and willingness to self-correct.

 

You were always a solid ES'er, but as a contributor your product improved notably over the years, not because of your specific views on any topic, but just how you participate---becuase you care about the integrity of your arguments and the product you bring to the forum. That last part is a big deal imo.

 

That's all the nice stuff I will say for free for now.

 

 

 

[Jumbo]

1 hour ago, carex said:

 

 I'm fine with Kik's abilities, I just sometimes feel his thought processes are self-defeating

 

Me too, only i can be a little more critical. I think most of the general criticisms of kirk are accurate enough with the huge caveat that IMO they get stupidly exaggerated by the more committed naysayers and a ton of very pertinent nfl context seems absent or severely mangled when reading most of the constant-critic views.

 

 

I also don't' think it's rational to presume kirk is now a completely finalized product who has hit his ceiling on everything and that he can't learn/change/improve in various aspects of his game. I'd like to see how a consistent quality defense and running game to compliment a stable (unchanging)  quality lead receivers for several seasons in a row might see him evolve. We already should be able to agree accept that when he's had time to work with familiar quality receivers (reed garcon jackson) and is behind a good o-line he delivers serious positive results.

[CTskin]

People are commenting how Kirk made a bad throw to Doctson, forcing him to make a pretty spectacular catch. I disagree. I think he purposely put it where Doctson had to dive to go down in bounds and keep the clock running. His IQ and ability are just that good.

 

That was said with complete sarcasm. I take this whole debate as seriously as this comment. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

15 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 

Me too, only i can be a little more critical. I think most of the general criticisms of kirk are accurate enough with the huge caveat that IMO they get stupidly exaggerated by the more committed naysayers and a ton of very pertinent nfl context seems absent or severely mangled when reading most of the constant-critic views.

You put it so much more eloquently than I ever could.

 

I'm more of the "you guys must not watch any games but ours" variety, followed by a burp and a fart. 

 

I think that's a double edge sword too, because our defense has been bad for a long time (minus this season), allowing even the lowest tier QB's to have success and make things look easy.

[Veryoldschool]

I knew it when I saw the Cleveland game in 2012.  First time out of the blocks and he ran a pro-style offense so convincingly.  At the end of the 2013 season when Cousin started 3 games the offense moved as designed and was competitive.  I was always able to believe that the young who could perform at a high level for stretches could learn to expand those stretches to whole games and series of games.  Now he has started and performed at a high level for 2 1/2 seasons on an unbalanced team.  

 

I want him paid the top salary in the league and given whatever guarantee he wants.  The Skins are late and stupid in giving Kirk is due they need to do and do it gladly so we can watch him start for the next decade.  Add some of the remaining pieces needed and the Skins can compete for a Super Bowl.  Snyder needs to commit to Cousins and win.

[JSSkinz]

1 hour ago, veteranskinsfan said:

Great quote from Kirk yesterday- Those who know, know.   One of his coaches told him early in his career to stay confident and not focus on the naysayers.

It was Sean Mcvay that said it, Kirk mentioned it on the show.

14 minutes ago, CTskin said:

People are commenting how Kirk made a bad throw to Doctson, forcing him to make a pretty spectacular catch. I disagree. I think he purposely put it where Doctson had to dive to go down in bounds and keep the clock running. His IQ and ability are just that good.

 

That was said with complete sarcasm. I take this whole debate as seriously as this comment. 

 

I think the pass was perfect, if you watch it he threw JD open, he didn't wait for him to get separation and it was nice to see JD burst away and make that play.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 minutes ago, jschuck12001 said:

 

I think the pass was perfect, if you watch it he threw JD open, he didn't wait for him to get separation and it was nice to see JD burst away and make that play.

Watching some clips from the All 22 helps provide some context too.  Kirk was getting molly whopped all day, several times immediately.  It's not like he was feeling super comfortable back there all day.  He put it out there and let him go get it.  Great pass, great catch. 

 

There were some folks saying the prior pass to Quick was a bad throw too.  I'm not sure what planet they are from. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This is a strange concern of mine.  Obviously I want to win and think the offense improving is a big part of that.  But at the same time, if he does put together a better second half of the season and we make the playoffs....that contract gets a bit more costly.

Probably a bit - but to me...every season we've hedged to "see more" naturally was going to cause the contract to go up (unless he played worse). So, you're almost paying for being more sure that he's legit. 

[JSSkinz]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

There were some folks saying the prior pass to Quick was a bad throw too.  I'm not sure what planet they are from. 

 

 

I think that was probably the best throw of the 2, he put enough air under it so Quick could adjust, if that ball had too much pace it would have been incomplete.

 

So the nice touch along with the fact he got plastered by the defense at the same time he released made it a difficult throw.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Watching some clips from the All 22 helps provide some context too.  Kirk was getting molly whopped all day, several times immediately.  It's not like he was feeling super comfortable back there all day.  He put it out there and let him go get it.  Great pass, great catch. 

 

The play where Kirk hung in there for an extra second to throw that pass down the middle (if I recall that was on the one to Grant) where it was clear he was about to be manhandled -- that was one heck of a play and showed tremendous guts.  Imagine Eli in a situation like that?  He'd throw the ball away and cower to the ground to avoid the hit.   I think one of the biggest misrepresentations from some of Kirk's critics is that the dude plays scared.   Perhaps, he's gun shy about throwing interceptions (because of early career struggles with that) and that makes him cautious at times.  But cautious and scared are too different animals. 

 

To your point about the All 22, I haven't had the time to watch it yet.  Cooley has and he was going on the subject today saying that Kirk is going to get hurt if he keeps getting battered by the O line.  He said they have to release Catalina and that the dude can't play.  He thinks Ari might be a better LG than Lauvao.  Then Cooley follows with they got to give Kirk a big offer this off season and lock him in -- he's not perfect, but he has a strong arm, quick release, works hard, teammates like him, keeps getting better.