Kirk Cousins, halfway through 2017: your new fun stop for wild spasmodic gyrating and posting excitement!---M.E.T.

[bowhunter]

46 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

ok ok, i'll stop. i know we're only supposed to have so much fun around here. this is a very therial topic. qb is a thuper therial position.

 

 

 

You just had to go there. I realize that this thread is focused on Captain Kirk, but it's just ludicrous to bring up thuper therials without starting up yet another debate. Anyone who knows what they're talking about will be quick to point out that Cap'n Crunch>>>>Captain Kirk.. Kirk is by most metrics a top ten therial, but he's nowhere near thuper. There's just no messing with CrunchBerries bro.

[LaxBuddy21]

9 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

My position has never waivered: yes to Kirk, no to $28mil/year.  If you can’t get a deal commensurate with the type of player he is, then you have to move on.

 

if Kirk doesn’t want to be here, you have to move on.

 

the FO bolluxed this thing up.  But you shouldn’t pay a 10-13 QB top 5 money.

 

its really that simple.

I still cannot fathom how this point is not getting through to so many. You pay market price. Wishful thinking about what market price is or you think it should be does not change it. You either think we pay him and fill in around him or you think we can get more value on the free agent market in other ways. The way you and others try to set arbitrary lines of where his value ends for you is pointless. 

[Unbias]

39 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Wentz was a monster in that game, but look at how he's played. He's been a monster in EVERY game. He just destroyed a great Broncos D. He's just playing on another level. That doesn't mean Cousins should be dismissed as being bad.

I agree, but I think it's relevant in these talks. The game is never Qb vs Qb, but when watching a game it's rare to see such a stark contrast in athletic ability. 

 

Maybe another way of looking at this is as most fans were watching that game if they seriously thought about what Kirk would cost on a simplified level you think Wentz is worth that kind of money instead. By extension some would roll the die on getting the next Wentz and moving on from Kirk. 

[Jumbo]

7 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

You just had to go there. I realize that this thread is focused on Captain Kirk, but it's just ludicrous to bring up thuper therials without starting up yet another debate. Anyone who knows what they're talking about will be quick to point out that Cap'n Crunch>>>>Captain Kirk.. Kirk is by most metrics a top ten therial, but he's nowhere near thuper. There's just no messing with CrunchBerries bro.

  

 

 

all true! so true this should be in caps! but all i have are these stupid explanation points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

speaking of caps as we all are,  he's also not even in the top tens cappytans of any type.

 

he's no cap'n ahab

he's no cap'n 'murika

he's no cap'n courageous

he's no cap'n kidd

he's no cap'n peirce

he's no cap'n hunnicutt

he's no cap'n morgan

he's no cap'n sparrow

he's no cap'n hook

hell, he's no cap'n tennille even

 

 

[zCommander]

27 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

My position has never waivered: yes to Kirk, no to $28mil/year.  If you can’t get a deal commensurate with the type of player he is, then you have to move on.

 

if Kirk doesn’t want to be here, you have to move on.

 

the FO bolluxed this thing up.  But you shouldn’t pay a 10-13 QB top 5 money.

 

its really that simple.

 

I don't understand your voice of reasoning on this. I am watching the Packers and the Lions game and thinking how the Packers are struggling without their QB. The QB is the most important position in football. 

 

If you don't pay Kirk that % of the cap that he is looking for and the reasonable guarantee money he should get then you will be like that team with a rookie QB at the helm and starting over again after 3 years. Rinse and repeat. 

 

You can't put a price tag on continuity and stability.

 

I am hoping they do lock him up as I think we are so close to going deep into the playoffs and maybe more with the D that we have right now. Can't give up now. 

[RemoveSnyder]

Since money seems to be one of, if not the most argued tenet of the Cousins saga, I'd like to address a few things about that. 

 

(But for brevity sake, I think I should break up my massive essay into smaller parts, segment at a time. 

Because I don't want to clutter things up or make people even more mad at me than usual.)

 

First, the "cost" of Cousins, as it stands today, for those who believe it is too high ... whatever that imaginary number is inside their own heads, the reason it is what it is, is because of Bruce Allen. 

Ok.

 

This has been Bruce Allen's ballgame since the beginning. And Allen has dicked around with this contract for about 3 seasons now. 

By not having already done what should have been done, Allen has allowed for this "cost" to balloon. 

 

Now maybe that has been Allen's ultimate plan all along. (Simpson, you diabolical ...)

Allow for the cost to become the ugly monster, spin the narrative toward Cousins' greed and escape the ridicule which he's already received in not locking in earlier at a better cost. 

 

So, for those commentators on ES, those who like to caveat the Cousins discussion based upon money, particularly that the money is too high, you have one person to look at as to why the "cost" is what it is today.

Clear? 

 

"But, but, but ... Cousins. His agent. Greed ..." -- Hold on, I can address that in the follow up.  

 

(I could have been nice there and just wrote "Cousins' culpability?" But I didn't)

[Tsailand]

I hope @PartyPosse isn't banned, even temporarily.  He's a good guy even though he's totally wrong when it comes to undervaluing Cousins.

 

Also I am looking forward to rubbing it in his face when Kirk wins a Super Bowl.

[Tsailand]

56 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

stumbling upon the semi-current LA Thunderbolts of the california gay softball league. 

 

This must be what Jimbo meant by "fun stop for wild spasmodic gyrating".....

 

I did some research on this topic and discovered that not only is Kirk missing from the "The 24 Sexiest Guys of the NFL" list, he doesn't even crack the "Top 10 Most Popular Hottest NFL Quarterbacks".  Honestly, he's so ugly that only Julie could love him.  And that's why we shouldn't give him a long term contract.

 

[RemoveSnyder]

13 minutes ago, Tsailand said:

This must be what Jimbo meant by "fun stop for wild spasmodic gyrating".....

 

Jimbo says lots of things about Krik.                                                 ... from his mouth. 

 

Krik don't listen to Jumbi. 

[RemoveSnyder]

Quote

 

 

Hey, I'm glad you asked. Part 2. 

 

Second:

There's one simple element about the money that I feel folks are not fully grasping. It's that the "cost" is ever increasing. Each year the cost goes up because the CBA says so. The CBA says that each progressive year the franchise tag money will increase.

 

And since the CBA says it, that means it's LAW. The CBA is the governing LAW which rules the fiefdom of the NFL. 

Understood?

 

Next, the owners and the player's association agreed to the terms of the CBA. Simple enough.

 

But that simple fact says so much in relationship to Bruce Allen's execution of this negotiation. So, maybe Bruce Allen doesn't like the CBA, maybe he wants to augment it, tough ****. It's an agreed upon CBA, deal with it. 

 

 

Third:

 

Now, none of what I just wrote above is really specific to Cousins, but it's a general framework. Here's the specific: Bruce Allen has willingly placed the franchise tag on Cousins in consecutive years. 

 

In the simplest terms, Bruce Allen was willing to pay AND agreed that Cousins was worth the maximum one-year allowable money, for a QB in the NFL, per the CBA, with a fully guaranteed contract.

 

By definition, Bruce Allen has defined Cousins as a franchise QB. By fact, Allen has done something unprecedented in league history by franchise tagging a QB two years in a row, never before seen in the NFL. (Citation needed?)

Allen did so willingly, albeit if begrudgingly.  

 

By fact, Allen conceded that Cousins was worth the 19.95 in 2016 and the 23.9 in 2017, as yearly values.

 

Now, you'll recognize that I'm skirting around the fact that Bruce Allen has also shown clear reservations and unwillingness to get a long term contract done with Cousins.

 

[Jumbo]

Critters like Bruce got eaten before they hit puberty where I grew up.

[RemoveSnyder]

Wasn't it too cold there?

[Jumbo]

It felt perfect to my heart.

[RemoveSnyder]

Fourth:

Cousins' agent, Mike McCartney, has used the franchise tag amount as the basis for the AAV on a long term contract.

 

Why not? 

I mean, if my employer says I'm worth 23.9 million for one year, fully guaranteed, why would I presume that my value would be any less?

 

When the CBA defines my value the following year, per the tag, and my employer still wants to tag me, why would I estimate my value any less than what the CBA says it will be? 

 

You understand the CBA spells this all out, right?

It's written down. We already know what the franchise and transition tag amounts are for 2018. 

 

The AAV which McCartney started with, at the beginning, prior to 2015, prior to the tags, was not matched to the franchise amount. I'm fairly certain. 

Allen, by opting for the tag, shot the baseline AAV up and set in motion a carousel of negotiations which centered around the franchise tag one-year amount. 

 

Everyone already knows this, correct?

The AAV -- Tag relationship, it's ancient history in fact, is very simple.

 

Bruce Allen says Cousins is worth 23.9 million for a single year.

So, if you want to determine what a 5 year deal looks like, you take 23.9 million and multiply it by 5. Easy. 

Before that, it was 19.95. Prior to 2015, it was much, much less, indeed. 

 

This was a piece of information which was unearthed prior to the 2016 season, after the negotiations which lead to the 1st franchise tag. I forget who first reported it, but I've always attributed it to someone at the Wapo. 

 

And we all know the results of the 2015 and 2016 seasons, Cousins' statistics, the team record, etc. 

 

But beyond that point, we all know that the guaranteed money of the contract is usually, almost always, the most critical negociating point of the contact.

That later. 

 

[RemoveSnyder]

Fifth:

Has it ever occurred to people that the perception of Cousins' agent playing hardball with Allen, driven by greed, is because, simply, Allen is just a massive douche? 

Seriously? 

 

This is perhaps the most important point I feel I can make, and probably the most ambiguous.

 

It's not impossible to prove though. Research I've done about Bruce Allen's early football career after Richmond is filled with quick stops of employment, sudden changing of jobs and a dubious papertrail of collateral damage.

 

Either people left holding the bag after a quick Allen exit, like Occidental college, or quite literally legal issues circling around the program he's associated with, Arizona State and/or lawsuits stemming from his real estate dealings and investigations of impropriety during his sports agent tenure. 

 

Has anyone thought that the accusation of "greed" on Cousins' part has really been just propaganda?

The demerit that he's trying to become the highest paid QB in the history of history while only having "good but not great" and generally "inconsistent" body of work is really a misdiagnosis. 

 

 Perhaps in forcing Allen's hand this can be seen as a formulaic strategy to save the Redskins from Bruce Allen?  

 

 

("We have to have sex in order to save the friendship.")

 

 

The negotiations have been so frayed to this point, that one really needs to look at the parties involved in order to understand the climate of the talks. And I have. 

This battle is between Bruce Allen and Cousins' agent, Mike McCartney.

 

This isn't about Cousins "wanting" ... anything, really, other than a good environment and a chance at success. Hint: He's really not getting that from the main man in the Redskins FO, Allen. Those who casually and incorrectly claim that this is Cousins' master plan, to hold out for some absurd and "unwarranted" amount of money, are really way off.  

 

And while both McCartney and Allen share some similarities in that each have worked for NFL front offices, as well as coached, had father's who were successful head coaches, and too were both player-agents, they, from my research, are worlds different people. 

 

But, furthermore (imo) this ultimately boils down to Allen's ego. Seriously. 

Again, I find myself wondering who it was that said of Allen, in reference to his firing of McCloughan for cause, intimating heavy drinking, that: "Allen [laughing] brushes his teeth with Coors light." 

 

But, nonetheless, I'd be willing to bet that at some point, either before 2015, during 2015, or right after 2015, something was said, something was done, which put Allen and McCartney at diametrically opposed positions, which is seemingly at an impasse. 

 

I would not be surprised if McCartney is finally taking a stand for all the other player-agent reps out there who over the years were dicked over by Bruce Allen and is really relishing the opportunity to stick it to Allen. 

 

Someone remind me to detail Bruce Allen's tenure for the Oakland Raiders. The years he spent as an apprentice to Palpatine, I mean, Al Davis. 

 

 

It's not about money. It's about who cowers first. 

 

This isn't about Cousins' gameplay anymore.

It's not, did he check to the hot route because "blah,blah,blah ... bltz, overload, slide protection, Yellow 41!!! HUt, hut!"

 

This isn't about a continuing evaluation of Cousins' play, nor the fans trying to breakthrough the fog of war and themselves divine some metric for valuation and finally solve the puzzle. That's all distraction to keep ESers yapping at each other. 

 

Everyone thinking that some kind of evaluation is still central to this is just chasing their own tail. It's irrelevant. 

The only question that exists is: Yes or No, do you want Cousins as your long term QB?

There is nothing else.

 

(There is no bathroom!)

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

7 hours ago, LaxBuddy21 said:

I still cannot fathom how this point is not getting through to so many. You pay market price. Wishful thinking about what market price is or you think it should be does not change it. You either think we pay him and fill in around him or you think we can get more value on the free agent market in other ways. The way you and others try to set arbitrary lines of where his value ends for you is pointless. 

 

I swear it's as if some here missed the day in school where supply and demand was discussed.  When he finally signs he will sign the market price for a good starting QB and there's not a damned thing wrong with that for either side.  We need to stop with the Wentz comparison, that guy is on his way to being a top 3 QB.

 

Couple of thoughts here:

 

Kirk never gets hurt.  That simply has to be considered when assessing his value.

 

What if the ratings continue to drop? What if the cap actually goes down when the new deal is put in place?  Well that would certainly make a $28/mil/year deal look a bit different down the road.

 

 

[elkabong82]

8 hours ago, Unbias said:

I agree, but I think it's relevant in these talks. The game is never Qb vs Qb, but when watching a game it's rare to see such a stark contrast in athletic ability. 

 

Maybe another way of looking at this is as most fans were watching that game if they seriously thought about what Kirk would cost on a simplified level you think Wentz is worth that kind of money instead. By extension some would roll the die on getting the next Wentz and moving on from Kirk. 

 

Highly doubt many people trust this FO to find and draft a good QB,

 

Interesting that Kirk isn't worth that kind of money after all this time now, yet Wentz is after half of a good season. Sounds more like chasing the flavor of the week.

 

Kirk is a franchise QB and there's no escaping that franchise QBs get paid the most in the NFL. Only reason to be hesitant, as a fan, to the LTD is the fear it will prevent the team from building rest of squad. To justify the LTD, you want a QB that can elevate the team despite average or poor play from other units. Cousins has been doing that. Poor defense, mediocre run game, gets us to the playoffs one season, almost again the next. This season mosly without an effective Reed, down experienced good vets at WR1 and 2, run game is abhorrent, and now OL a mess, yet he's still delivering. His contract won't be so massive that we can't keep the current defense in tact, and that's enough to win.

[skins island connection]

33 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I swear it's as if some here missed the day in school where supply and demand was discussed.  When he finally signs he will sign the market price for a good starting QB and there's not a damned thing wrong with that for either side.  We need to stop with the Wentz comparison, that guy is on his way to being a top 3 QB.

 

Couple of thoughts here:

 

Kirk never gets hurt.  That simply has to be considered when assessing his value.

 

What if the ratings continue to drop? What if the cap actually goes down when the new deal is put in place?  Well that would certainly make a $28/mil/year deal look a bit different down the road.

 

 

 You HAD to go there, didn't ya.  Now you jinxed him.

Last thing needed would be him to get hurt; that would throw the monkeywrench of monkeywrenches into the gearbox. Alas let's hope that doesn't happen.

 

 I just want this problem to go away, one way or another. I'm so confused now, I'm worse than when it started, and I've run out of milk for my crunch berries, so I have to use water [ it won't hurt ].

It reminds me of this limo dog [ half a dog tall, dog and a half long ] that thinks it lives here now, eating MY dog's food, and I can't catch the little bi...um, female dog, so I'm thinking of combining 2 issues to solve a problem. Use the crunchberries in a slingshot and chase the dog out of my yard. Problem is, the crunchberries did take to water so they don't work well in a slingshot.

 

my dog   =   Cousins

limo dog = Allen

water = salary cap

crunchberries = teammates

Or, is Allen the water; maybe the crunchberries is the salary cap. I'm hungry.

 

[markmills67]

11 hours ago, shk75 said:

He is also improving. People wanted him to stop throwing picks...and he has. People wanted him to play better in crunch time and he has two 4th quarter comebacks (SF and SEA). If we surround him with more talent he would be a top 5 QB no doubt.

Where is this talent coming from with Cousin's possible  $30m per year taking up about 60% of our cap space for 2018.

 

 

[markmills67]

9 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

My position has never waivered: yes to Kirk, no to $28mil/year.  If you can’t get a deal commensurate with the type of player he is, then you have to move on.

 

if Kirk doesn’t want to be here, you have to move on.

 

the FO bolluxed this thing up.  But you shouldn’t pay a 10-13 QB top 5 money.

 

its really that simple.

At last someone with common sense, cousin's  $22m tops, anything more I would walk away.

 

HTTR 

[Audible_Red40]

12 hours ago, Tsailand said:

You might ask why he is only 16th in total attempts, but that is a question for the Jay Gruden thread

I would say it's because 8 teams haven't had their bye yet and outside of San Fran, all other 7 QB's have had an extra game..

 

Flacco, Smith, Carr, Wentz, Newton, Brissett and McCown.

 

A lot of these metrics are always skewed because of bye weeks. 

[DJHJR86]

Remember all of those "reports" saying people "in the building" think they can get the same production from Colt McCoy for a much cheaper deal?  Ain't no way in hell Colt freakin' McCoy is going down the field in 30 seconds IN Seattle and giving us the lead.  

[skins island connection]

11 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

Where is this talent coming from with Cousin's possible  $30m per year taking up about 60% of our cap space for 2018.

 

 

That's a lot of crunchberries...

 

 Or is it water?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

Where is this talent coming from with Cousin's possible  $30m per year taking up about 60% of our cap space for 2018.

What kind of data and math are you using here?

 

Your math is wrong, but besides that, I'm curious what you want to do with the money saved from letting Cousins go.  Purchase free agents?  To me, free agency is kind of like that $9 bottle of water they leave in your hotel room.  You laugh at the thought of paying $9 for the bottle of water.  But when you wake up hungover and dehydrated, that long walk to the vending machine seems daunting.  So you crack open that $9 water and guzzle it down.  The immediate disappearance of cottonmouth makes it feel worth it for a moment.  Checkout comes, you look at the bill and see that $9 water and hate yourself for it.

[SWFLSkins]

9 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

My position has never waivered: yes to Kirk, no to $28mil/year.  If you can’t get a deal commensurate with the type of player he is, then you have to move on.

 

if Kirk doesn’t want to be here, you have to move on.

 

the FO bolluxed this thing up.  But you shouldn’t pay a 10-13 QB top 5 money.

 

its really that simple.

 

It really is. Whether here or twitterville, if you make any statement to support the above by pointing out Kirk's inconsistency or areas in need of developing, you become a Hater, if you point out what he does well, they you are labeled a Kirkstan. Seems the Right/Left style argument has permeated every discussion everywhere. 

 

And yeah while it's not our Money, it's our Team, I love Kirk, think he will only get better. That said damn Bruce for not signing him two years ago, might have been the rub with Scot even. IDK maybe @thesubmittedone can't lend some thoughts on the FO. I am just hoping Campbell and Williams have some serious input into the selection of who plays here. We have seen what Bruce did in Tampa, it wasn't good. 

 

As for the argument sytle.....

 

I saw it in the grocery store yesterday, Beef or Chicken......Chicken or Beef,

 

well the chickens are free range aren't they?

 

You ever seen a Cow in a crate? 

 

I finally won with I'm paying, Got Steaks....

 

(lol) She just yelled to me this exact moment, "should I take the chicken out to put on the grill, tonight?"

 

Why would freeze Chicken for one day? (not said aloud)

 

Win some, Lose some.