Kirk Cousins, halfway through 2017: your new fun stop for wild spasmodic gyrating and posting excitement!---M.E.T.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

@Skinsinparadise I think your observation is a microcosm of the season for Cousins. He's had a grittier and tougher run in 2017. The sense in 2015 and 2016 is that he was doing what he was doing in large part to the supporting cast and system. In 2017, he hasn't had a steady, sterile environment...instead he's had to elevate the players around him and continue to produce. It's less tangible and more anecdotal, but I'm more impressed with him this year than I was last year. 

[Alexa]

The Cousins interview the other day was awesome. He said it best, "people who know, know" ...I look at it this way, if he were to hit the open market those people who actually do know, will make a strong push for him. They know he's a good to very good NFL QB.

 

I just have a lot of respect for Kirk and it's hard not to like him.  He's had to earn it the hard way. Nothing was given to him here. He was drafted to be a back-up and had to put up with all the RG3 nonsense. He just kept quiet and went about his business. He was benched and deserved to be, didn't pout, hired his own QB coach in season and re-started from the bottom. I like his story here and hope it continues. 

 

 

 

 

[Tsailand]

5 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

What if the ratings continue to drop? What if the cap actually goes down when the new deal is put in place? 

 

If that's truly a concern for the Redskins, they can propose a contract where future year salaries are based on a percent of the salary cap... if it doesn't go up much, that's a pay cut for Cousins.  If it goes up faster than expected, that's a pay raise.  If the base numbers and guaranteed money were good enough, he

would probably go for it, assuming he even wants to be here.

 

 

1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

At the end of the 2013 season when Cousin started 3 games the offense moved as designed and was competitive

 

You must be thinking of the Atlanta game (week 15).  The other two were pretty bad.  I don't blame him, those were for a three win team that had completely given up and knew it's coach was about to be fired.

[dyst]

The guy i frustrating as hell but his numbers are pretty good.

[Llevron]

Dude is worth it if you can keep the squad around him. SSJ4 Kirk Cousins is not to be ****ed with. He just like Goku, plays around the whole fight and gets serious once the planet is about to explode and Krillin is dead again. 

46 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

@Skinsinparadise I think your observation is a microcosm of the season for Cousins. He's had a grittier and tougher run in 2017. The sense in 2015 and 2016 is that he was doing what he was doing in large part to the supporting cast and system. In 2017, he hasn't had a steady, sterile environment...instead he's had to elevate the players around him and continue to produce. It's less tangible and more anecdotal, but I'm more impressed with him this year than I was last year. 

 

Yea, cant disagree with this much. 

[Gregpeck99]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 He's had a grittier and tougher run in 2017. 

Yea ... the more grittier ... the more expensive. 

 

Time to move on ... a la Jared Goff.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

9 minutes ago, Gregpeck99 said:

Yea ... the more grittier ... the more expensive. 

 

Time to move on ... a la Jared Goff.

I'm sure Jared will cheap when his next contract comes up in a couple years.

[carex]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The play where Kirk hung in there for an extra second to throw that pass down the middle (if I recall that was on the one to Grant) where it was clear he was about to be manhandled -- that was one heck of a play and showed tremendous guts.  Imagine Eli in a situation like that?  He'd throw the ball away and cower to the ground to avoid the hit.   I think one of the biggest misrepresentations from some of Kirk's critics is that the dude plays scared.   Perhaps, he's gun shy about throwing interceptions (because of early career struggles with that) and that makes him cautious at times.  But cautious and scared are too different animals. 

 

To your point about the All 22, I haven't had the time to watch it yet.  Cooley has and he was going on the subject today saying that Kirk is going to get hurt if he keeps getting battered by the O line.  He said they have to release Catalina and that the dude can't play.  He thinks Ari might be a better LG than Lauvao.  Then Cooley follows with they got to give Kirk a big offer this off season and lock him in -- he's not perfect, but he has a strong arm, quick release, works hard, teammates like him, keeps getting better.   

 

INTs are a concern, but when you're behind a battered OL holding onto the ball, double pumping it isn't a good alternative either.  You can throw the ball away instead of trying to force it in for example

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

@Skinsinparadise I think your observation is a microcosm of the season for Cousins. He's had a grittier and tougher run in 2017. The sense in 2015 and 2016 is that he was doing what he was doing in large part to the supporting cast and system. In 2017, he hasn't had a steady, sterile environment...instead he's had to elevate the players around him and continue to produce. It's less tangible and more anecdotal, but I'm more impressed with him this year than I was last year. 

 

Agree.  I'd extend this point to the team and Jay.  It's a fun team to root for -- these guys are gritty and over-achievers.    They've had arguably the two worst variables of bad luck you can get in a season.  A. Tough schedule.  B. Massive injuries.

 

The injuries are even part of the national narrative now, can you believe the Redskins are playing without.....Shannon Sharpe had some good lines yesterday about what Kirk and this team has overcome in spite of the obstacles.

 

Think of it this way, if people said this before the season, most of us would likely panic and expect they were 2-6 at this point

 

A.  Schedule even harder than it looked. Rams, Saints, Vikings much tougher looking now than before

B. Jordan Reed, Crowder would be just about non-factors all season

C. The top passing targets are Davis and Thompson

D. Pryor for the most part a non-factor

E. The O line would get ravaged by injuries right before the meat of the schedule.

F. The running game would be even worse than last season

 

And with all of this: they beat some of the best teams this year in the NFL and were competitive for most of every game.  Impressive, I think.  Then we got some of Kirk's detractors who ignore all of this because it just gets in the way of their negative narrative about Kirk and their points by extension act like the team (of course it being Kirk's fault) is actually under-achieving this season and every loss is unacceptable. 

 

This team is more or less right now -- where its been the last two seasons.  They are competitive and a real playoff threat -- even though the obstacles are much more significant than the prior two seasons. 

 

I agree with Snider's take here -- Snider knows a thing or two about the history with QBs and this team.  He's been around forever.

 

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2017/11/05/snider-cousins-debate-now-over-period/

SNIDER: Cousins Debate Now Over – Period

by Rick Snider

 

The Washington Redskins shouldn’t hesitate come season’s end. Have a new contract in Kirk Cousins’ locker after the season’s final game with so many zeroes the passer will grab a pen.

Cousins already earned a long-term mega-contract over the last 2.5 years. But for the many haters who just can’t accept Cousins or always want someone new, it’s time to stop.

Credit for the Redskins’ 17-14 victory over the Seattle Seahawks on Sunday mostly lies with the defense. Just a flat-out balling kind of effort. But after finally relinquishing the lead, the team turned to Cousins with 1:34 remaining to produce just the second touchdown of the afternoon.

He needed only 35 seconds.

After a tipped opening incompletion, Cousins hit Brian Quick for 34 yards and Josh Doctson for 38 before Robert Kelley scored on a one-yard run. Now Quick has barely played this season and Doctson is still earning trust after dropping a late game-winning at Kansas City. Yet, Cousins avoided some of his typical throws and went for the win to the pair of unlikely playmakers.

Cousins now has 11 fourth-quarter comeback wins, which is supposedly the benchmark of greatness. This time Cousins played like some of the Redskins passers of the 1970s – Sonny Jurgensen, Billy Kilmer and Joe Theismann. Those guys never flinched at the end. Cousins didn’t blink either despite missing four – that’s one sure of everyone – offensive linemen and was hit hard too often amid bad weather more reminiscent of late December.

 

[Veryoldschool]

Shannon Sharpe of what Cousins did....

 

https://www.foxsports.com/watch/undisputed/video/1089437251598

 

[Jumbo]

Don't take this as supporting the logical fallacy of appeal to authority (which regularly gets misconstrued), nor am I forgetting for the moment the whole premise that armchair/keyboard pontificators can and should toss around their opinions (whatever their merit) on their subject of interest, but sometimes I do marvel at the hubris here in the staff at the ES Academy of NFL Quarterbacking, Playcalling, and Head Coaching. 

 

Hopefully these under-qualified moronic grossly incompetent professionals and failures we dissect and tutor do learn something from us over all these years and all our efforts.

 

 

 

(c'mon---you need be able to laugh at yourself---big unwritten ES rule: don't take yourself too seriously)

[Cooleyfan1993]

Guys...stop the wild spasmodic gyrating. It’s gross. Get a room!!  

[Voice_of_Reason]

14 hours ago, zskins said:

 

I don't understand your voice of reasoning on this. I am watching the Packers and the Lions game and thinking how the Packers are struggling without their QB. The QB is the most important position in football. 

 

If you don't pay Kirk that % of the cap that he is looking for and the reasonable guarantee money he should get then you will be like that team with a rookie QB at the helm and starting over again after 3 years. Rinse and repeat. 

 

You can't put a price tag on continuity and stability.

 

I am hoping they do lock him up as I think we are so close to going deep into the playoffs and maybe more with the D that we have right now. Can't give up now. 

It's simple.  In order to pay top 5 money, you have to be top 5.  Because if you don't have a top 5 QB, you need extra money to build around that person.

 

If you don't have a top 5 QB, and you pay him as such, you end up 8-8 every year.  Because you're going to be good, but you're not going to have enough cap room to get everything they need.

 

Rodgers, Brady, Brees, (and maybe Wentz) are force multipliers.  You pay them the extra dough because you don't need that extra $3-5 million of cap room to sign another 1-2 starters.  

 

I like Cousins.  I really do.  But if we keep doing what we're doing, we know the results.  It's 8-8.  Every damn year.

 

Which is why I hope that they could work out a deal where he accepts some type of compensation commensurate with his level of play.  If he doesn't, then I just don't think you can do the dance again.  You've got to move on and get on with it. And I'd prefer to do that sooner rather than later.

 

Would it mean that you'd have to live through growing pains of a young QB?  Probably.  Would Kirk be better than anybody you drafted?  Absolutely, for probably 2-3 years. 

 

Here's the other thing.  Let's say they transition tag him, and he plays here for 1 more year. You can't tag him again.  So he's probably gone in 2019 anyway.  Why go through the process again if you already know the outcome?

 

If you REALLY want to pay the 10th best QB top 5 money, then I guess that's fine.  I just don't think he's that guy.  

 

And again, I WANT him to stay as our QB, because I think you can win a SB with him.  But I don't think you can win a SB with him at a top 5 salary.  That's my opinion.  I could be wrong. 

 

[Warhead36]

Is Matt Stafford top 5? No, but he got paid that much.

 

Thats just how it works. The last guy to sign gets more than the previous guy. And so on and so forth.

 

Cousins's contract will look like peanuts when guys like Mariotta, Wentz, Prescott, etc. sign new deals in the coming years.

 

You also have to factor in that guys like Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rivers and even Rodgers are hitting the decline soon. Cousins may not be top 5 right now, but he's top 10, and could very well be top 5 once the current 35+ year old crop of QBs call it quits.

[Pwyl]

40 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

top 5 money

 

What's this number and how did you calculate it?

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, Pwyl said:

What's this number and how did you calculate it?

It's the value of the franchise tag, so it's pretty easy to calculate.  Also, you could take the last couple deals and figure it out.  Look at the Carr and Stafford deals.  Both are around $28/$29 million a year.  Kirk is making top-5 money now at $24 million.  

 

 

[shk75]

5 hours ago, carex said:

 

of course to have do that we need money which means we need to pay him less, that's part of the issue.  I'm fine with Kik's abilities, I just sometimes feel his thought processes are self-defeating

Not necessarily. What we really need is a couple of good drafts. Rookie contracts are much cheaper now.

[carex]

5 minutes ago, shk75 said:

Not necessarily. What we really need is a couple of good drafts. Rookie contracts are much cheaper now.

 

he's a QB going on 30, you don't give guys like those huge contracts based on in a couple years

[TD_washingtonredskins]

13 minutes ago, carex said:

 

he's a QB going on 30, you don't give guys like those huge contracts based on in a couple years

 

Well, I don't agree at this position. If this is even a conversation, it'll likely mean he's had the three best QB seasons in our franchise's history in back-to-back-to-back seasons. Even at 30, unless you were considering a 7-year contract, there's no reason to think he won't still be performing at this level by the time your contract runs out. If players like Brees, Smith, etc. are any indication, he'll very possibly be better at 35 than he his at 30. 

[skinny21]

Who are the qbs definitely better than Cousins right now?  Brady, Rodgers and Brees are.  After that, Ryan, Wilson and Wentz probably are.  So, who else tops Kirk?

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Just now, skinny21 said:

Who are the qbs definitely better than Cousins right now?  Brady, Rodgers and Brees are.  After that, Ryan, Wilson and Wentz probably are.  So, who else tops Kirk?

 

 

 

I think it's a fluid list. There were times when I though Mariotta was and other times when I though Prescott could be. But, since it changes a lot, I would look at it a little more big picture. Who are the ones you'd take today to sign to a 5-year contract over Cousins. Of the guys in your first category, I'd only pay Rodgers before Cousins due to age. I'd probably pay Ryan before Cousins...not positive about Wilson, but probably. Definitely Wentz. I think no matter who shuffles in ahead of him from year to year, Cousins is clearly a top-third of the NFL (top 11ish) QB. 

[NewCliche21]

1 hour ago, Jumbo said:

<snip>

Hopefully these under-qualified moronic grossly incompetent professionals and failures we dissect and tutor do learn something from us over all these years and all our efforts.

 

(c'mon---you need be able to laugh at yourself---big unwritten ES rule: don't take yourself too seriously)

 

Reminds me of that new hotel commercial with Rich Eisen (obviously ineffective if I remember the spokesman and not the hotel) where he's at a Packer's game and a fan is randomly yelling out relevant information, even if she knows that the players can't hear her ("Number 56 is the Mike!"; "They're stacking eight in the box, play action!")

 

Except you can't have horrible typos while talking and there's no record of it.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Is Matt Stafford top 5? No, but he got paid that much.

 

Thats just how it works. The last guy to sign gets more than the previous guy. And so on and so forth.

 

 

Agree.  Ditto Derek Carr.    Free agency doesn't flow in some sort of linear hierarchy where players salaries neatly match their standing versus their peers but are about when the players hit FA.  It's a timing driving mechanism much more so than hierarchical. 

 

Also, not every position is created equal.  And I don't mean just that QBs win games but the fact that they are a hard find.   When it comes to most markets -- value is reflected in how common or uncommon are the goods.  If a market is flooded with a product its typically cheap -- if its the reverse the goods are more expensive.    FA is the same way to a degree.

 

The fact that the Redskins likely don't have a viable option B at QB is relative.  The fact that other teams don't let their franchise QBs hit the market is relative, too.   A major part of the Kirk narrative is (thank you Bruce) akin to a home being available in the neighborhood -- where homes typically never go on sale.    

 

Each player transaction isn't looked at in a vacuum.    Is Kirk worth this amount or that amount IMO isn't the overriding question in a vacuum.  The overriding question IMO is what does the market bear for said player and how would the team look with or without the player.  And how easy would it be to find a new one.  If you are going to let your house hit the market -- how easy is it going to be to find a new house in that same neighborhood or better and how fast?  My point is there are IMO a lot of moving parts and variables to this decision and the what's Plan B is a key variable in that mix.

 

The idea that the Redskins like most teams without a franchise QB would likely stink if they had a JAG at QB - is relevant to the market.  The idea that a team like Denver can likely transform their team in one fell swoop from a mediocre outfit to a Superbowl contender by signing a franchise QB in FA -- also IMO relevant to the market.  Ditto whatever other narratives are in play for other teams.

 

That's why IMO Cooley is right.  Don't let Kirk hit FA or rent him by overpaying with the franchise tag.  Give the dude a serious contract with a serious amount of guaranteed money.  As for letting Kirk go -- IMO plan B has to be really really good.  Otherwise I can't see how you can look at the transaction in a vacuum -- like we are talking about lets say do we bring D. Hall back or not.  There are plenty of transactions that fit as a vacuum type of drill when it comes to contracts -- good deal, bad deal, etc.  I don't see this case being an example of it.   

 

In this case IMO its not exclusive to Kirk is he worth it or not.  But also how is this team with Colt McCoy and an extra 3 FAs they can sign with the extra money or trading for Dalton or whatever.   For me, plan B at best seems very risky at worse it strikes me as sabotaging a team that's on the verge of being very good.

[UK Skins]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

If you REALLY want to pay the 10th best QB top 5 money, then I guess that's fine.  I just don't think he's that guy.  

 

And again, I WANT him to stay as our QB, because I think you can win a SB with him.  But I don't think you can win a SB with him at a top 5 salary.  That's my opinion.  I could be wrong. 

 

Damn, you nailed this. But to a few people on this board you are a Hater, an Anti-Kirk and whatever other crap the Cousins Fan Club will come up with.

 

Obviously I can't quote your whole post but it was 100% spot on.

[Tsailand]

23 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Who are the qbs definitely better than Cousins right now?  Brady, Rodgers and Brees are.  After that, Ryan, Wilson and Wentz probably are.  So, who else tops Kirk?

 

Half a season is a bit soon to anoint Wentz as the next HOFer.  Yes, he's playing very well right now.  Let's see him do it two years in a row. 

 

Kirk has the 3rd most passing yards over these last 2.5 seasons.  Yes, he benefits from starting every game over that period, unlike guys who get injured or suspended (Brady is missing 1200 yards) or are just new to the league.  That shows he's reliable.