General Mass Shooting Thread (originally Las Vegas Strip)

[twa]

Just now, stevemcqueen1 said:

Figuring out his motive doesn't address the real problem of how he was able to pull this off.  That's the one we can and must fix.

 

Figuring out the why might help to identify others

The why is the real driver.

 

How is rather simple

[daveakl]

31 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Figuring out his motive doesn't address the real problem of how he was able to pull this off.  That's the one we can and must fix.

The "how" of doing most anything in our country is relatively easy if one has enough time and money.

 

Putting obstacles up does work to delay and give law enforcement a better shot at sniffing things out before though.

 

Much like purchasing Sudafed, a gun registry that would alert authorities when someone has purchased the arsenal this guy had isn't a bad idea, but are people willing to give in to more oversight?

[Destino]

38 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Figuring out his motive doesn't address the real problem of how he was able to pull this off.  That's the one we can and must fix.

 

Don't we already know how?  

[twa]

Just now, daveakl said:

 

 

Much like purchasing Sudafed, a gun registry that would alert authorities when someone has purchased the arsenal this guy had isn't a bad idea, but are people willing to give in to more oversight?

 

Do you think a registry would have made him a real person of interest in advance? (might help in other cases)

I don't see anything unusual(aside from bumpstocks) for a rich gun enthusiast.

Now if his name was Habib or Elroy maybe.

[daveakl]

Just now, twa said:

 

Do you think a registry would have made him a real person of interest in advance? (might help in other cases)

I don't see anything unusual(aside from bumpstocks) for a rich gun enthusiast.

Now if his name was Habib or Elroy maybe.

Depends on how the registry is enforced. If someone owning lots of guns shows up on it as someone to watch a little closer (based on # of guns, amount of ammo, type of modifications purchased) then perhaps that's the trade off for being a gun enthusiast. 

 

Basically you keep your 2nd amendment rights to own whatever the F type of gun, ammo, and modifications you want but you give up the ability to be totally anonymous. 

[Going Commando]

23 minutes ago, Destino said:

Don't we already know how?  

 

I'm still waiting on an intellectually honest assessment and debate about the how.

[twa]

I'm sure his trip to Vegas would raise alarms ...not

Now if you wish to pair registry with more intrusive methods ya might do better, but the more intrusive methods do not need a registry to know he had many weapons.

[Going Commando]

 

On 10/3/2017 at 5:18 PM, Predicto said:

 

 

On top of that, in our currently polarized society, conservatives have decided than any gun control proposal is an attack on conservative values.  It triggers the same voting response even from conservatives who don't belong to the NRA, don't own guns, and don't even want to own one.  

 

Liberals aren't nearly that cohesive (right now).  We splinter and squabble with each other over every nuance, and then don't get out to vote because the candidate is not pure enough for us.    

 

Your post is true.  And I know you know all of this, but just for the purposes of putting it in one place:

 

1 - Liberals have actual principles.  You can rationalize and compromise a great deal on gut-sourced dogma but not on a real principle.  If hearing that gets a conservative's panties in a wad, well, your whore party elected Donald Trump.

 

2 - Liberals/Democrats are far more diverse than conservatives/Republicans.  Their interests are much more likely to directly conflict with each other.

 

3 - Women and liberals who are persons of color have been historically (and currently) excluded from the electorate.  They don't have voting habits reinforced by generations of participation and activism like white males do.  Higher rates of generational poverty and incarceration also depress turnout among persons of color.  Because of this, they are much more likely to sit an election out if there isn't a charismatic household name Democrat running for president whose leading a movement that pulls everyone to the polls.  Democrats can't win with Al Gores, John Kerrys, and Hillary Clintons even when they are vastly superior to their opponents.  And they can't win midterms at all unless there is something keeping conservatives home.

 

4 - White male liberals are more isolated than white male conservatives.  They attend church at much lower rates.  They're not freemasons and rotarians.  They're less likely to be vets with a broad network of other vets.  These kinds of social networks push people to the polls and get them to vote as a bloc.  You do see this in black democrats, but not in white democrats.

 

5 - Urban voters have to wait hours to vote whereas rural voters only need a ride to the polls and they're in and out in 15 minutes or less.  Urban voters are democrats.  Urban voters have to make bigger sacrifices to vote, like taking off work and/or finding something to do with their kids.  Their participation will always be more tenuous.

 

6 - Liberals get ****ed over by the Electoral college.  They are systemically marginalized.  I'm sure this effects participation.

[TheGreatBuzz]

I plan on calling my Representatives today and telling them that I, as a conservative and a gun owner, support the bump stock ban being proposed and I want them to do the same.  I hope others are calling their Reps as well.

[tshile]

4 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

At this point, what does motive matter?

At this point we have: a seemingly normal, functioning person took 20+ guns to a hotel in Vegas and shot up a crowd killing over 50 people and causing injuries to over 400 people.

 

And your response is "what does motive matter?"

 

Well then what does anything matter? If you're going to bury your head in the sand in regards to society, go all out. Don't bother voting or reading the news or socializing. Just do your thing and let the rest of us worry about it.

[Llevron]

Would a bump stock ban have to go through the president? Sorry for my ignorance to how this works. 

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Would a bump stock ban have to go through the president? Sorry for my ignorance to how this works. 

 

He'd have to sign whatever legislation Congress sends him, but if Republicans are the ones who pass the ban it'll be veto-proof because every Democrat will support it.

[Going Commando]

24 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I plan on calling my Representatives today and telling them that I, as a conservative and a gun owner, support the bump stock ban being proposed and I want them to do the same.  I hope others are calling their Reps as well.

 

This is a great idea.  I live in a place that's gerrymandered into a Democrat district (literally, my street is the border between a super strong democrat district and a weak republican one and I got stuck in the Democrat district).  But your post inspired me to fire off an email to my representative anyway outlining all of the gun control legislation I'd support.  It can't hurt.

[LadySkinsFan]

They will combine the ban on bump stocks with their bill to allow silencers. 

[Dan T.]

9 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

They will combine the ban on bump stocks with their bill to allow silencers. 

 

So you'll only be hit once or twice, and you won't hear it coming.

[Dan T.]

So Clark County Sheriff Joseph Lombardo said at a news conference he believes that Paddock had a plan for escape, but I've heard no details to support that.  Has anybody heard evidence supporting that?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

So Clark County Sheriff Joseph Lombardo said at a news conference he believes that Paddock had a plan for escape, but I've heard no details to support that.  Has anybody heard evidence supporting that?

They indicated he had a plan to escape and could have received help, but not details to this point.  They really aren't giving away much at all right now.

[twa]

Something that might be interesting is he supposedly used the second window to shoot fuel tanks

 

https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/the-strip/las-vegas-strip-shooter-targeted-aviation-fuel-tanks-source-says/

 

[visionary]

 

[Popeman38]

2 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

They will combine the ban on bump stocks with their bill to allow silencers. 

What does this add? How is it constructive? It looks like a drive by post, to further flame conservative/Republicans. 

[Dan T.]

1 hour ago, visionary said:

 

 

 

There are reports he booked two rooms at the Blackstone Autograph Collection Hotel in Chicago, one on August 1 and the second on August 3, both with an August 6 checkout date. A full two months before the Las Vegas massacre.

 

He specifically asked for rooms overlooking Grant Park, which is directly across South Michigan Avenue from the hotel.  Lollapalooza was held at Grant Park.  The final day of Lollapalooza was August 6..

 

TMZ, of all outlets, has a report on this, with a photo of a computer reservation screen from the hotel showing Paddock's name and reservation dates.

 

https://www.tmz.com/2017/10/05/stephen-paddock-booked-hotel-lollapalooza-music-festival-chicago-vegas/

 

 

Google Maps of the location:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Blackstone,+Autograph+Collection/@41.8732449,-87.624131,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x880e2c98db868aa7:0xbdd99a9a4da13bf7!8m2!3d41.8732501!4d-87.6244949

 

Around 400,000 people attended Lollapalooza over its four days, including President's daughter Malia Obama,

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

5 hours ago, daveakl said:

The "how" of doing most anything in our country is relatively easy if one has enough time and money.

 

Putting obstacles up does work to delay and give law enforcement a better shot at sniffing things out before though.

 

Much like purchasing Sudafed, a gun registry that would alert authorities when someone has purchased the arsenal this guy had isn't a bad idea, but are people willing to give in to more oversight?

 

Great minds.....I brought this up a while back in the gun control thread

 

 

If the federal government can track the purchase quantities of my flipping allergy medication and restrict the amount I can buy per  30 days (which actually only allows me to buy a 27 day supply the way its packaged), then there is absolutely no reason the same type of hardware/software (modified of course) cannot be used to track the sale of firearms, ammunition, etc.  

 

As a gun owner, I think that bumb stocks should absolutely be banned, same with silencers.  I also think that moving forward, all guns (not just handguns) should require a permit in addition to the background checks.  I'm also fine with limiting/reducing the magazine sizes.  Any responsible gun owner should have no problems with any of those changes, imo.

 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

2 hours ago, Popeman38 said:

What does this add? How is it constructive? It looks like a drive by post, to further flame conservative/Republicans. 

 

She's right though.  Everything seems to have to have a compromise instead of total agreement that both bump stocks and silencers should be banned. 

 

Dems - we want a full ban on silencers and bump stocks. 

 

GOP - we will give you the bump stock ban, but the silencers stay, or vise versa, can't have both. 

 

Dems - ok, lets ban bump stocks.

 

Granted, I'm not sure how many murders/shootings involve a gun with a silencer on it, If I had to guess, probably a really, really small percentage (1-2% or less - curious to know now).   I still think there is no need for any citizen to "need" a silencer.  But at the end of the day, it's all politics and one side isn't going to give up any more ground than they need to on any topic, regardless if it is the best course of action.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Dont Taze Me Bro

[The Sisko]

5 hours ago, twa said:

 

Do you think a registry would have made him a real person of interest in advance? (might help in other cases)

I don't see anything unusual(aside from bumpstocks) for a rich gun enthusiast.

Now if his name was Habib or Elroy maybe.

 

However, if you look at the data, Chad and Dillon ought to be the ones under greater scrutiny. Maybe implementing stop and frisk for white males might save a few lives.

[Mooka]

2 hours ago, twa said:

Something that might be interesting is he supposedly used the second window to shoot fuel tanks

 

Seems evidence Paddock was more of a nutjob then a calculating mastermind. As the expert says, trying to blow up a giant fuel tank by shooting it is amateurish. Like something from a movie. 

 

This guy had pounds ammonium nitrate in his car, owned a **** ton of guns, and shot those explosive target practice things. At the very least Paddock had a good understanding on explosives, accelerants, etc.