The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[goskins10]

15 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

Teams have from Feb. 15th to March 1st to apply the franchise tag to one player.  After the tag has been applied, the team can rescind the tag like the Panthers did with Josh Norman last year.  If they have not worked out a LTD and do not apply the FT by March 1st, then Cousins hits the free agent market and can sign with any team he wants.

 

But that won't happen.  Kirk will not hit the FA market, because the Skins would get nothing in return, so he will be signed to a LTD prior to March 1st or they will apply the FT by the deadline.  Then hope they can get a LTD done before the July deadline and if not, Kirk plays under the FT a second year in a row.

 

One minor adjustment - once he signs the tag they cannot rescind it. Had Josh Norman signed the tag they would have been legally bound to honor it and could not have taken it back. I say that because Cousins will likely sign the tag the minute it's offered giving him the final say. Then they can't sign him to a LTD or trade him without him agreeing, nor can they take the tag back.

 

Cousins has said a lot of positive things about being a Redskin that many have chosen to ignore. However, I will say there is one statement he made that sticks with me along with those - He said, "the franchise tag is my friend!" It's probably just more of the public negotiating process. But I have to admit it has stuck with me.

[purbeast]

If there was something that could guarantee me a 40x raise of what I was making 2 years ago, you sure as heck can bet it would be my best friend as well.

[RonArtest15]

SO much speculation over nothing being leaked.  Personally, I think a LTD gets done.  But honestly, who knows?  Everyone at Redskins Park is tight lipped and there has been next to nothing being said by Cousins and his camp.  Jason Reid/Florio are the last two people I'd trust to break Skins news or have insight in 2017.  I think folks (certain media members) are grasping because they don't have the same sources/moles in the park as they did in years past.  It's got to be driving them crazy. 

[KokoMike]

I like the Ninerswire article yesterday indicating a deal with the Redskins for Cousins would start at two first round picks (including the number two pick this year).  RB Carlos Hyde would be great for the Skins.  They have a strong defensive end, WR, and DB, too.

 

Cousins, I think, really wants to be with Shanahan.  Shanahan would be very comfortable with Cousins.  Package a deal to include TEs would make Shanhan drool.  

 

The time is right for a blockbuster trade.

 

 

[DM72]

If this last report is true, Cousins is being VERY shrewd for a guy who has never won a playoff game and for crapping the bed in some must win games at home.

 

I want us to sign Cousins, but if it's true that he he won't sign a LTD under any circumstances, who does he think he is?

19 minutes ago, RonArtest15 said:

SO much speculation over nothing being leaked.  Personally, I think a LTD gets done.  But honestly, who knows?  Everyone at Redskins Park is tight lipped and there has been next to nothing being said by Cousins and his camp.  Jason Reid/Florio are the last two people I'd trust to break Skins news or have insight in 2017.  I think folks (certain media members) are grasping because they don't have the same sources/moles in the park as they did in years past.  It's got to be driving them crazy. 

 

I hope you're right.

[ThomasRoane]

8 minutes ago, KokoMike said:

I like the Ninerswire article yesterday indicating a deal with the Redskins for Cousins would start at two first round picks (including the number two pick this year).  RB Carlos Hyde would be great for the Skins.  They have a strong defensive end, WR, and DB, too.

 

Cousins, I think, really wants to be with Shanahan.  Shanahan would be very comfortable with Cousins.  Package a deal to include TEs would make Shanhan drool.  

 

The time is right for a blockbuster trade.

 

 

 

You should depart from Fantasy Island immediately.  Because you're delusional if you think the 49ers are stupid enough to even trade a #1 to Kirk this year when they can wait and sign him next year with all their picks intact.  That's a fact.  The Redskins sign Kirk to a LTD or franchise him and get a 4th round compensatory pick in 2018.  Those are the two choices. 

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

9 minutes ago, KokoMike said:

I like the Ninerswire article yesterday indicating a deal with the Redskins for Cousins would start at two first round picks (including the number two pick this year).  RB Carlos Hyde would be great for the Skins.  They have a strong defensive end, WR, and DB, too.

 

Cousins, I think, really wants to be with Shanahan.  Shanahan would be very comfortable with Cousins.  Package a deal to include TEs would make Shanhan drool.  

 

The time is right for a blockbuster trade.

 

 

 

Where do you then turn to at QB?

 

This draft class is real weak. FA doesn't look much better. We've absolutely nottin' on the books of anything like starting material. 

 

The premise is all well and good there but you're then not only saying we aren't gonna' win many games the next few years in all likelihood, but you're potentially hindering a lot of guys development within that. Not lest on offense. 

 

Hail. 

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, UK Skins said:

My wife (who isn't a big Football fan but does like Cousins) first mentioned the deer in the headlights thing to me. Now I can't watch him play without seeing it. Whenever he gets pressured he just glazes over and you just know it's only time before he throws an interception or fumbles the ball.

Every single QB has that same look. I've seen Manning have it, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, all of them.

 

Did you see Newton's face in the SB last year? Or hell even Brady in the 1st half of this one?

2 hours ago, ncr2h said:

 

In 2016, Brees (8) threw nearly twice as many 4th quarter INTs than Kirk (5).  In 2015, Brees (6) threw six times as many 4th quarter INTs as Kirk (1).

 

You can see for yourself here:

 

Cousins: http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/14880

Brees: http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/2580

Don't bother bringing numbers or facts. The anti Kirk crowd don't believe in that stuff. Its all "look" and "feel."

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

3 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

You should depart from Fantasy Island immediately.  Because you're delusional if you think the 49ers are stupid enough to even trade a #1 to Kirk this year when they can wait and sign him next year with all their picks intact.  That's a fact.  The Redskins sign Kirk to a LTD or franchise him and get a 4th round compensatory pick in 2018.  Those are the two choices. 

 

Or apply the transition tag in 2018 with the right to match other teams offers.  

[UK Skins]

 

Your idea of a "deer in the headlights" look must be different from other people then. I hate Brady but he wasn't terrified, just frustrated. Same with the others you have mentioned (with the possible exception of Newton who's hardly in their class).

[Dissident2]

11 minutes ago, DM72 said:

If this last report is true, Cousins is being VERY shrewd for a guy who has never won a playoff game and for crapping the bed in some must win games at home.

 

I want us to sign Cousins, but if it's true that he he won't sign a LTD under any circumstances, who does he think he is?

 

 

You have to understand, Cousins' agent is driving this ship. Sure, Cousins is ultimately the one who has the say, but it's the agent's job to get the absolute best deal he can get. The deal he makes will affect his own standing as an agent moving forward and also other players who might find themselves in similar situations down the road. Plus, no one's done anything to Cousins that's going to make him interested in offering some sort of "home town discount." 

 

[hailer21]

The whole clutch argument is way too open to the subjective interpretation of what "clutch" performances are.

 

The 2012 Baltimore game is a perfect example - does Kirk get "clutch" credit for coming in cold off the bench, down 8, with the season on the line and delivering 8 points to send the game into OT and an eventual win? That sure sounds clutch but that is just my opinion, which is based on my interpretation of the moment. 

 

Then you have the 2015 Falcons game, which @Warhead36 interprets as neither a clutch or choke-job performance from Cousins because...

 

Quote

in OT garbage ass Ryan Grant falls down, leading to a Cousins pick 6. The anti Kirk people will scream "CHOKER" but it was obviously not his fault in that spot.'

 

What about Kirk's other reads on that play - should he have thrown to Grant? What about the drive earlier in the 4th when the Defense picked off Matt Ryan and handed the ball to Cousins and the Offense in the redzone (we only got a FG)? Where do you draw the line to say whether or not Kirk delivered or choked?

 

The question of whether or not a QB is clutch is a rabbit hole of opinion - it's easier to leave opinions at the door when it's up to one player to determine a win or loss (like walk-off homers in baseball or game-winning shots in basketball or any achievements in individual sports).

 

And as far as the opinions go on clutch QBs, you'll probably find the most agreed upon opinion by looking at the W-L record of said QB in the playoffs or in week 17 elimination games (at least in my opinion ). 

 

Tony Romo (W-L Record in Playoffs + Week 17 Elimination Games): 1-5.......anyone calling Romo clutch?

Andy Dalton (playoff record): 0-4.....has choke-artist label

Peyton Manning (playoff record before winning first SB in 2006): 3-6.....definitely carried choke artist label until winning it all in '06

Carson Plamer (playoffs): 1-3...choker, right?

 

Eli Manning (playoff record + week 17 elimination game 2016): 9-4....broadcasters just love calling Eli clutch

Montana/Brady kill it in the playoffs and are "clutch"

 

Kirk Cousins (Playoffs + Week 17 Elim games): 1-2....could maybe add the 2012 Seahawks playoff game considering it wasn't over went Kirk went in

 

Long story short, Kirk's clutchness is all a matter of opinion and if you ask me, I'd lean to the choke-artist label because he hasn't won in the truly big games and has a habit of throwing game-icing INTs.

 

[KokoMike]

If Cousins won't sign a long term deal, it is wise for the Redskins to field all offers.  Yes, it would be a fantasy for a bidding war to develop for Cousins.  You can do it Kyle.  Come on McVay.  Hue to the table.  Even Jerry Falwell could play a role.

[Gizmo 3squire]

I for one am elated that there's no news and that everyone is losing their minds on the no news.lol Redskins media and others are going crazy, ES is all over the place. Normally, there's all kinds of chaos and misquotes, but this time there's none of that. Compared to years in the past, this is wonderful.haha I suggest the media and everyone else chill until a deal is done as well. I'm just sitting here waiting on what happens tbh. Regardless of the outcome of this, whether Kirk is here or not (not gonna get worked up about it) i'm still gonna be HTTR.

I would take every report, especially w/ no sources w/ a huge grain of salt. Until I see LEGIT reports (which I doubt we'll see until a deal is done) I'm not gonna feed into it, and none of us should either. My stance: I personally think a deal gets done and everything dies back down.

[purbeast]

34 minutes ago, KokoMike said:

I like the Ninerswire article yesterday indicating a deal with the Redskins for Cousins would start at two first round picks (including the number two pick this year).  RB Carlos Hyde would be great for the Skins.  They have a strong defensive end, WR, and DB, too.

 

Cousins, I think, really wants to be with Shanahan.  Shanahan would be very comfortable with Cousins.  Package a deal to include TEs would make Shanhan drool.  

 

The time is right for a blockbuster trade.

 

 

Why do you think he really wants to be with Shanahan?  I'm genuinely curious as to why people think they are so tied at the hip at this point.  Has Cousins said anything about it or is this again just people speculating?

[Gizmo 3squire]

If not, though disappointing, it may be for the best, and it isn't doomsday for Washington.

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, KokoMike said:

If Cousins won't sign a long term deal, it is wise for the Redskins to field all offers.  Yes, it would be a fantasy for a bidding war to develop for Cousins.  You can do it Kyle.  Come on McVay.  Hue to the table.  Even Jerry Falwell could play a role.

 

The way the tea leaves read to me is Kirk won't sign a long term deal at less than market value, he'd sign a long term deal at market value.  So if the Redskins are going to stick to their position of paying him under 24 million a year -- he wants the tag.  

 

Albert Breer just talked on 106.7.  His feeling is Kirk likes it here.   The FO is perhaps struggling with what they think market value should be.  He thinks its not nuts to let the market to set his price, he thinks the only two high bidders would likely be SF and the Redskins.

12 minutes ago, Gizmo 3squire said:

If not, though disappointing, it may be for the best, and it isn't doomsday for Washington.

 

IMO it depends what defines doomsday.  You can argue over the last two decades, the Redskins at least weren't the worst team in the NFL, they'd often be in the 5-11, 6-10 range, we'd have our occasional good week like when Colt helped beat Dallas in 2014.   I think we'd return to that and we are all used to it at least -- we would unlikely be awful but just in that mediocre to bad range IMO.

[purbeast]

The Redskins basically set his market value by not signing him to a LTD last year and gambling.  They gambled and they lost, so now it's just time to pony up and pay.  The new price of the $24m franchise tag this year is now his new yearly price tag in the current market.

[The Consigliere]

21 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

 

It was interesting to hear Casserly say this morning that a lot of the teams he has spoken with dont consider Kirk a top 15 QB in this league. To have a guy like that, who has his share of contacts, say that is quite sobering I think. Although he did say he doesnt think there is a better option for the team at this point.

 

I don't think that's an entirely unreasonable argument. There seems to be a very large consensus that Gruden's offensive design dramatically inflates, and bandaids over Kirk's liabilities as a QB. I don't agree w/the idea that he's a sub-top 15 guy, but I also don't buy for a second that he's a top 5, even if his base stats say so. 

 

Too many foolish mistakes in high leverage situations, horrible red zone completion rate, and accuracy when under pressure. When you do a deep dive into his #'s the results are contradictory and confusing. In some area's he plays like a lock top 5-10 guy, in others he looks like a bottom 10 to bottom 5 guy. It's rather bizarre.

 

I think this is a scenario that is in one of three baskets: #1 the team is not sold on Kirk, and will not pay him top 5 money that he demands and will look to trade or sign and trade his rights #2 this is all just smoke, and come time to sign, it will appear silly in retrospect or #3 Kirk and the FO are trying to find an appropriate middle ground between top 5 money, setting a new contract record, and the leaks are basically bogus (like we had Michael Thomas on top of our board last year at WR) posturing, to help facilitate each sides angle with the public as they try to find a number both can live with. 

 

I'm confused about what purpose leaking the idea that Kirk is pissed and wants to leave serves though. Why would Kirk's side leak such a thing? It would hurt his image with the public in general and DC fans. Doesn't make sense unless he's trying to get the fan base to rip the FO instead of him (and that is working in some quarters). Crazy negotiations. Reminscent of the problems we had leading to the loss of Trent Green and Brad Johnson in '99 and '01, although quite difficult and different in the particulars (Green was because of JKC dying, and the team being unable to make major financial committments that offseason until the ownership issues were rectified-what a total disaster that was, cost us a top 10 overall draft pick). 

[bedlamVR]

I think there is one very significant flaw in Kirks plan if he wants to take this year to year - It's the what if - If he signs the FT at 24 million and turns away say a 4-year deal with 50 + million in guarantees with a 21 average  - he is essentially gambling between 30 and 60 million in future earnings on him being able to repeat his 2015/16 production with a diminished WR class (if Jackson and Garcon flee) and potentially a FO who has half an eye on looking for a development replacement  (maybe even Sudfield) 

 

He is gambling that he doesn't get hurt or exposed essentially - if he gets hurt mid season and his replacement steps up to the plate and the offence doesn't miss a beat then people will question is it cousins or is it the system even more . And the odds tip more and more against Cousins the closer and closer he gets to the  season without a long-term deal. 

 

Me I wouldn't blink - I know i have a good thing here - i know Jay is going to build an offense that can put points on the board - I am going to be set for life no matter what happens - If i get offered a deal close to the franchise tag or around 11-12% of the cap and gives me money guaranteed  I am not risking it -- 

[DM72]

38 minutes ago, Dissident2 said:

Plus, no one's done anything to Cousins that's going to make him interested in offering some sort of "home town discount." 

 

I don't believe anyone is asking him to take a hometown discount. But if the Redskins offer him a fair market value contract and he says "no thanks", we might as well trade him IMO.

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, DM72 said:

 

I don't believe anyone is asking him to take a hometown discount. But if the Redskins offer him a fair market value contract and he says "no thanks", we might as well trade him IMO.

 

Agree but I don't see any smoke to the idea that the Redskins have offered him a fair market value contract.  And Kirk has said numerous times they he'd love to stay under the right circumstances -- which I presume him meaning a fair market contract.

 

I don't see the onus at the moment on Kirk.  The onus seems to be whether the team plans to offer him a fair market contract or not.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

33 minutes ago, purbeast said:

The Redskins basically set his market value by not signing him to a LTD last year and gambling.  They gambled and they lost, so now it's just time to pony up and pay.

 

I've asked this before on another thread...but what exactly do you feel the Redskins were gambling on with Cousins?...What would have been a "win" from franchising Cousins last year in the front office's eyes?

[Skinsinparadise]

Mike Jones from a few minutes ago

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2017/02/21/if-redskins-want-a-kirk-cousins-extension-first-they-must-use-franchise-tag/?utm_term=.42acf7a7c1fd

 

Is there any chance at all Kirk Cousins and the Redskins work out a deal before the franchise tag deadline? At this point, what is the main benefit for him to sign a deal right now?

– Steve Carter

No. From everything I have gathered in talking to people close to the situation on both sides, there is no reason to expect Kirk Cousins to sign a long-term deal before the March 1 franchise tag deadline. The Redskins certainly would love to do so and avoid having to commit roughly $24 million in fully-guaranteed money (all of which counts against the salary cap) to the quarterback. Yes, they’re high on Cousins, and a long-term deal would benefit them, because they would be able to structure the deal in a way where maybe only a part of that $24 million (maybe $20 million or so) is comprised of base salary money (which counts against the cap) and the rest is made up of bonus money. That would give the team more salary cap flexibility to pursue other free agents.

But it really makes no financial sense for Cousins to agree to a deal before the tag deadline. He guarantees himself $24 million and if he plays out the franchise tag without agreeing to a long-term deal, he likely hits free agency next year as one of the top quarterbacks on the market. The Redskins could have avoided this situation by making Cousins a solid offer last season, but they weren’t even willing to commit the type of money Houston gave the less-proven Brock Osweiler (four years, $72 million with $37 million guaranteed and an annual salary of $18 million) last year. Now, the Redskins will wind up having to pay Cousins at least $44 million in guaranteed money for last year and this year ($20 million franchise tag in 2016, and $24 million tag figure this year), and they face the high risk of losing him next year.

Cousins is sitting back and letting his agent, Mike McCartney, do his job, which is to get his client the best possible deal. Waiting until the free agency market is set and then negotiating on a deal ensures that McCartney does just that. So, again, no. Cousins is not expected to sign a deal in advance of the franchise tag deadline. It just makes no sense for him.

Tired of Cousins situation. What’s you’re take on it? And, am I wrong for feeling that Cousins enjoys being a Redskin?

– Scot Fortescue

I understand the fatigue. I’m tired of bugging sources every day for updates and answering questions about it and writing about it nonstop. My take is this is playing out exactly how it should, however. Even if Cousins wants to be here, this is how you play it.

Some players never get a chance for a big contract. Some only get one shot. His agent’s job is to work to make sure that he gets his client the best contract possible. And, so, after the Redskins only made a halfhearted offer last year, he’s in no mood to do anything but get Cousins the fair market payday he deserves.

He’s looking at Josh Norman ($20 million), Trent Williams ($15 million), Ryan Kerrigan ($11.7 million) and then looking at other starting quarterbacks like Ryan Tannehill ($19.25 million), Matt Ryan ($20.75 million), Joe Flacco ($22 million), Andrew Luck ($24.59 million) and inflation and knows his client deserves to be paid like Washington’s top players, and comparably to quarterbacks around the league. And so, that means waiting this thing out, even if it means playing on the franchise tag a second year.

Don’t believe the notion that the Redskins can’t fill out their roster adequately if they pay Cousins that $24 million franchise player tag salary. They’ve got around $64 million in salary cap space this year. Even after committing $24 million to Cousins – if they do – they still have a great deal of cap space to re-sign their own free agents, pay for draft picks and get some talented pieces.

I think Cousins does like playing for Jay Gruden, and he does like his teammates. He has talked about the importance of continuity. But, I’m sure he has some intrigue about playing for guys like Kyle Shanahan and/or Sean McVay, who know him very well and have helped him achieve a good deal of success. Are there some hurt feelings over last year’s negotiations and the fact that ownership preferred a struggling Robert Griffin III over Cousins until Gruden and Scot McCloughan stood on the table to get the green light on the switch? Sure. All of this factors into the situation. I think if anyone was in Cousins’s position right now, they’d be playing it exactly like he is.

[NewCliche21]

Thanks SIP.

 

Mike Jones confuses the hell out of me.  I feel like I read from him that Cousins is gone because the Redskins don't want him and then all of a sudden I read that the Redskins are high on him.  This is most of the reason that I can barely come on ES.  So much is unknown that we're all basically arguing with no information from sources who don't really know what's going on, either.

 

EDIT:  This isn't a dig at Jones or any other reporter, by the way.  They have word counts, click quotas, and deadlines to meet whether or not there is anything out there to really write about, and I don't think it's fair to fault them for that.