The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Veryoldschool]

On 2/20/2017 at 1:54 PM, clskinsfan said:

 

It was interesting to hear Casserly say this morning that a lot of the teams he has spoken with dont consider Kirk a top 15 QB in this league. To have a guy like that, who has his share of contacts, say that is quite sobering I think. Although he did say he doesnt think there is a better option for the team at this point.

 

I fail to see how this is relevant us unless 1 of those teams are the Redskins.  I don't mean to criticize you for posting what Casserly said, I just don't see how his observation is pertinent.  Obviously, Kirk has turned in top 10 or top 5 performances the last 2 years so for the Redskins he is a top 5 QB.  If he becomes a FA in 2018 it isn't going to matter if a few or a handful of Casserly's buddies think Kirk is mediocre because 6 to 10 teams will court him and Cousins will get the top 5 contract the Skins have apparently denied him.

 

Another thing Casserly has always been dismissive of Cousins and may be looking to others to agree with him.

[goskins10]

45 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Mike Jones from a few minutes ago

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2017/02/21/if-redskins-want-a-kirk-cousins-extension-first-they-must-use-franchise-tag/?utm_term=.42acf7a7c1fd

Is there any chance at all Kirk Cousins and the Redskins work out a deal before the franchise tag deadline? At this point, what is the main benefit for him to sign a deal right now?

Edit

 

 

So this is from Mike Jones about this time last year - It clearly states Kirk Cousins is anxious to paly on the tag and or test the FA markets. The deal the Redskins were offering based Jones was in the $15M to $18M range. If that's the case, and it's true Kirk's team wanted in the $20M range, I have to think that if Kirk really wanted to get a LTD made then they could bridge the $2M/yr. That is not much in the grand scheme of things.

 

It makes sense from a business standpoint - if you really don't care where you play. It sounds like Kirk again has no desire to get a LTD signed. Since he ran to sign the FT offer last year, it's clear it was not just negotiating. So we have to assume that if he runs to sign the tag, again he is not wanting to negotiate in good faith. He prefers to play business hardball - which is his right. But it would also means he really does not care or value where he plays.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2016/02/23/redskins-mailbag-can-kirk-cousins-handle-the-franchise-tag-pressure/?utm_term=.5b9669c34b21

 

Also, he stated last Feb the $18M range which is indeed in the Brock O. range yet he says now they were not willing to offer him that. Which is it? Seems he is using a bit of selective memory.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

I've asked this before on another thread...but what exactly do you feel the Redskins were gambling on with Cousins?...What would have been a "win" from franchising Cousins last year in the front office's eyes?

 

 

Not sure people understand the difference between mitigating risk and gambling. A gamble would mean they had a specific outcome in mind. In this case what is the ideal situation for franchising him? There is not one. Are you rooting for him to fail? If you are "gambling" he would do well then you would sign him for what he wants.

 

Mitigating risk however means you take the least risk option. I believe this is the logic the team used. Need to separate the two.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

Thanks SIP.

 

Mike Jones confuses the hell out of me.  I feel like I read from him that Cousins is gone because the Redskins don't want him and then all of a sudden I read that the Redskins are high on him.  This is most of the reason that I can barely come on ES.  So much is unknown that we're all basically arguing with no information from sources who don't really know what's going on, either.

 

 

I don't recall Jones saying Cousins is gone because the Redskins don't want him.   About 3 weeks or so ago, Jones was the most upbeat among the reporters covering the team about Kirk returning -- back then he said he thought they'd get a deal done saying the team wants to get a long term deal done.  Then this week he said Kirk likely wants 23.9 million a year but the Redskins are likely a few million below it.  Now today he's saying Kirk wants the tag and negotiate from that.  That's sort of consistent with JLC's story that the Redskins will likely get a long term deal done but it will happen before the July 15th deadline not the March 1st one.

 

If Mike Jones is right -- Kirk sticking to the tag makes sense.  If the Redskins FO won't budge to the 23.9 million figure, the tag in effect forces them to budge there.

[bobandweave]

Quote

“I just want to make sure that I go to this free agency with an open mind knowing that I definitely

want to go back to New England,” Blount said on NFL Total Access on NFL Network. “I love it there. I love the culture. I love the players. I’ve become close with a lot of the guys. Obviously you know how my running back group is. We’ll cross that bridge whenever we cross it. On that point, I feel great. I’m in amazing shape. I feel like I could play 100 more years if I have to.”

 

And we get nothing like this from Cousins, trade him and fleece the 49ers for a middle of the road QB who wants to be paid like a top 5 guy. Take away the gaudy yardage totals from last year and what do you have? Unlike that redic other post saying he was clutch which is incredibly nieve, what you see is a QB who choked when it matters most all the time, never won a playoff game in his life, who threw for near 5000 yards but could only muster 25 passing TDs during that process, who in college had the NFL's best RB today and couldn't win there, and who is more likely then not losing his WR's this year so you know those yards will come back down to earth next year and won't win as much, and who generally was given a chance by a team and thanked them by trying to screw them for top 5 money at the most expensive position available.

 

I don't care nor do I think anyone else should care that he gives us the best option to win next year, building a team is a process and the best way to fudge that process all up is to dump your WR's 1 and 2 just so you can overpay a guy who can't even come out and say after we made him and gave him his shot that he wants to be here. He doesn't want to be here.

 

Dump him for picks and start over. Throwing good money after bad is dumb.

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

So this is from Mike Jones about this time last year - It clearly states Kirk Cousins is anxious to paly on the tag and or test the FA markets. The deal the Redskins were offering based Jones was in the $15M to $18M range. If that's the case, and it's true Kirk's team wanted in the $20M range, I have to think that if Kirk really wanted to get a LTD made then they could bridge the $2M/yr. That is not much in the grand scheme of things.

 

 

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/25615/kirk-cousins-wanted-better-offer-redskins-want-more-proof

 

The minute Brock Osweiler signed his deal with the Houston Texans in March, life changed for Washington Redskins quarterback Kirk Cousins. If Osweiler, who had started just seven games during his four years in Denver, could receive a contract worth an average of $18 million a year, then Cousins could expect more. Problem is, the Redskins weren’t willing to go that high.

The Redskins used the franchise tag on him, so Cousins' camp believed he should receive at least $20 million in the first year of a new deal. After all, Cousins had the leverage and the franchise tag was $19.95 million. The thinking was any salary should average that amount.

From the Redskins’ perspective, it was a matter of belief. Publicly and privately, key members on the football side say Cousins is their long-term guy. But that belief by the organization is only to a certain degree, considering their offer to Cousins for most of the offseason averaged $16 million a year -- or $4 million less than the get-it-done price. The guaranteed money didn’t come close at all, either -- it was around $13-14 million less than Osweiler's $37 million.

There’s risk for both sides, but the Redskins would rather overpay Cousins after two good seasons than have buyer's remorse after one. Cousins would rather bet on himself than accept an offer that for the average person is like hitting the lottery a few times over, but is not close to what it could be for him in the future -- or came close to what Osweiler received. You can easily state a case that both sides are right.

Cousins’ side knows this: He’ll maintain negotiating leverage into next offseason -- as long as he plays relatively well. Finding a legitimate starting quarterback is difficult and rarely done in free agency. You don’t rush into a deal just for that reason, but it complicates matters for teams. As others in the league told me earli

 

[purbeast]

1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

 

I've asked this before on another thread...but what exactly do you feel the Redskins were gambling on with Cousins?...What would have been a "win" from franchising Cousins last year in the front office's eyes?

I don't mean gambling in the traditional sense, just more of the "ok here is some money, show us you can do it again" thought process.  That is what I mean.  

 

They gambled in a sense that they paid more up front to see if Kirk Could do it again instead of paying less over the long run.  And now that they "lost" that gamble (or you could even say it paid off) they now have to pay up to get him locked up long term.

[PigskinRedskin]

Theres no way a LTD gets done before March 1st unless the LTD matches at minimum $24 million guaranteed for the first season. Why would Kirk and Co. sign something less when hes guaranteed $24 million on tag. Kirk believes he can duplicate last season and either Redskins or someone else will give him the same or more next season. 

 

So this will continue on pass when Kirk signs the tag minutes before the deadline and Redskins will have to offer close to the $24 million each season through the LTD be it for 3 seasons fully gtd for about $75 million and bonus incentives, before season starts or whatever deadline is next. 

[Wildbunny]

12 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

And we get nothing like this from Cousins, trade him and fleece the 49ers for a middle of the road QB who wants to be paid like a top 5 guy.

Houston traded Osweiler to the 49ers?

 

Joke aside, stop bashing Cousins for such stupid kind of stuff, that's hampering your agent here. STFU and let your agent do your job in that regard he's better than anyone.

 

So Cousins haven't declared his love for the Redskins? so what? He spokes about continuity which is OK. But he has not said also that he hates being here that Dan is a dick, Bruce an ass, that Jay blows goats and Scot eats children as well.

 

He's keeping quiet, which absolutely doesn't means he wants out ASAP. He's doing what he should: let his agent do his frigging job and get him a deal. Saying stuff like "I don't want to play anywhere else but here" is just lowering your annual salary price as your market value just went down.

[bobandweave]

1 minute ago, PigskinRedskin said:

Theres no way a LTD gets done before March 1st unless the LTD matches at minimum $24 million guaranteed for the first season. Why would Kirk and Co. sign something less when hes guaranteed $24 million on tag. Kirk believes he can duplicate last season and either Redskins or someone else will give him the same or more next season.

 

Without Garcon and Jackson there is no way that he will repeat what he did last year. Who does this guy think he is? Is Kirk a top 5 QB? Hell no he's not, not to mention once he does sign that tag then there goes half our money to sign other free agents, goodbye  Garcon, and Jackson. Goodbye guys who have talent and we should be paying over this guy. So the plan is to screw ourselves next year with a much worse offense with a coach in a make or break year, all for one season with a guy who isn't top 10? No thank you. Give up on Cousins and start over. He is nothing like a top 5 QB and we will be fools to sign him to a deal like that

 

 

[clskinsfan]

4 minutes ago, PigskinRedskin said:

Theres no way a LTD gets done before March 1st unless the LTD matches at minimum $24 million guaranteed for the first season. Why would Kirk and Co. sign something less when hes guaranteed $24 million on tag. Kirk believes he can duplicate last season and either Redskins or someone else will give him the same or more next season. 

 

So this will continue on pass when Kirk signs the tag minutes before the deadline and Redskins will have to offer close to the $24 million each season through the LTD be it for 3 seasons fully gtd for about $75 million and bonus incentives, before season starts or whatever deadline is next. 

 

As you stated it depends on the guaranteed money. If the deal has 75 mill guaranteed. It is going to be awfully hard to turn that down., Instead of 24 mill this year he would be looking at some kind of insane signing bonus. Probably like 35-40 million this year. And then a smaller salary which would be team and cap friendly.

[Wildbunny]

5 minutes ago, PigskinRedskin said:

Theres no way a LTD gets done before March 1st unless the LTD matches at minimum $24 million guaranteed for the first season. Why would Kirk and Co. sign something less when hes guaranteed $24 million on tag. Kirk believes he can duplicate last season and either Redskins or someone else will give him the same or more next season. 

 

So this will continue on pass when Kirk signs the tag minutes before the deadline and Redskins will have to offer close to the $24 million each season through the LTD be it for 3 seasons fully gtd for about $75 million and bonus incentives, before season starts or whatever deadline is next. 

 

So he should back off a 22M per year contract for 5 years and 60M guaranteed for a 24 FT?

That's smart business decision here.

[goskins10]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/25615/kirk-cousins-wanted-better-offer-redskins-want-more-proof

 

The minute Brock Osweiler signed his deal with the Houston Texans in March, life changed for Washington Redskins quarterback Kirk Cousins. If Osweiler, who had started just seven games during his four years in Denver, could receive a contract worth an average of $18 million a year, then Cousins could expect more. Problem is, the Redskins weren’t willing to go that high.

Edit

 

That's from ESPN. Not trying to be difficult but not sure what it has to do with what Mike Jones was reporting which is what I was specifically addressing. Mike Jones this year said the Redskins would not even offer Brock Oswieller money last when he himself reported last year that the Redskins were in the $18M/yr range - which is exactly in the Brock O. range.

 

He also makes it appear that Kirk wants to play on the tag - and did last year too. It is my opinion that if Kirk runs to sign the tag it demonstrates he does not care where he plays. He has that right. Just an observation.

 

None of them or us know a single thing. Which as someone pointed out, in one way is a good thing. At least there are not all kinds of leaked he said she said crap like in most previous years. 

 

In the end, despite my rational side knowing that this is likely to last until July 15th, the fan side of me wants this **** done so we can all go on to arguing about something else... 

 

[Warhead36]

13 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

Without Garcon and Jackson there is no way that he will repeat what he did last year. Who does this guy think he is? Is Kirk a top 5 QB? Hell no he's not, not to mention once he does sign that tag then there goes half our money to sign other free agents, goodbye  Garcon, and Jackson. Goodbye guys who have talent and we should be paying over this guy. So the plan is to screw ourselves next year with a much worse offense with a coach in a make or break year, all for one season with a guy who isn't top 10? No thank you. Give up on Cousins and start over. He is nothing like a top 5 QB and we will be fools to sign him to a deal like that

 

 

Maybe not top 5 but he was in the top 10 in just about every major statistical category last year. Actually in many advanced metrics he was top 5.

 

The same people saying "let him go start over" are the same ones who will be crying the most when we start 2-6 next year and Colt McCoy is stinking up the joint.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, PigskinRedskin said:

Theres no way a LTD gets done before March 1st unless the LTD matches at minimum $24 million guaranteed for the first season. Why would Kirk and Co. sign something less when hes guaranteed $24 million on tag. Kirk believes he can duplicate last season and either Redskins or someone else will give him the same or more next season. 

 

So this will continue on pass when Kirk signs the tag minutes before the deadline and Redskins will have to offer close to the $24 million each season through the LTD be it for 3 seasons fully gtd for about $75 million and bonus incentives, before season starts or whatever deadline is next. 

 

Yeah this is how it looks like to me, too.   If the team doesn't want to go up to $24 million then Kirk's agent forces the issue with the tag.  I don't see how it doesn't go down that way.  I think they do get a deal done if they offer a long term deal at $24 million a year before March 1st -- but it doesn't seem like they plan to do so.

 

To take the team's point of view, if they think (per what Albert Breer suggested) the market is their friend and not their enemy -- then July 15th deadline might work in their favor.  I.e., the 49ers draft a QB high.  Matt Ryan gets extended and its less than what Andrew Luck got paid not more, etc.  

[bobandweave]

7 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

He's keeping quiet

 

Jack if you paid attention the last two months and really believe that he's been "keeping quiet" then we can't have a reasonable conversation. I can point you to interview after interview where this man was definitely not keeping quiet, he's just not into looking out for this team, or willing to do what is needed to keep his receivers and we aren't accepting the fact that he doesn't want to be here. He wants to be here if he gets over paid. That's not what you build your team around. One year of Cousins without those receivers won't see us in the playoffs, this isn't Tom Brady we are talking about

 

 

[JSSkinz]

23 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

 

It was interesting to hear Casserly say this morning that a lot of the teams he has spoken with dont consider Kirk a top 15 QB in this league. To have a guy like that, who has his share of contacts, say that is quite sobering I think. Although he did say he doesnt think there is a better option for the team at this point.

I typically watch the NFL Network because the information you get is from hall of fame/pro bowl players, coaches, and GM's and the consensus from them is pretty much the same.

 

Sanders and others on that network have said GM's and coaches around the league see him as a tier 3 QB.

 

I think it would be interesting to see how the league values Kirk, I'm not sure they value him as much as people think.

[bobandweave]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Maybe not top 5 but he was in the top 10 in just about every major statistical category last year. Actually in many advanced metrics he was top 5.

 

The same people saying "let him go start over" are the same ones who will be crying the most when we start 2-6 next year and Colt McCoy is stinking up the joint.

 

I guess you know the future right? You know what I'm going to say next year already? Get serious

 

 

 

 

[Wildbunny]

2 hours ago, hailer21 said:

And as far as the opinions go on clutch QBs, you'll probably find the most agreed upon opinion by looking at the W-L record of said QB in the playoffs or in week 17 elimination games (at least in my opinion ). 

 

So I believe you'll rate Kaepernick and Sanchez as Clutch QB. They're 4-2 in playoffs.

 

And that 0-3 bummer Matthew Stafford really looked like a choker against us this year.

 

 

[The Consigliere]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Maybe not top 5 but he was in the top 10 in just about every major statistical category last year. Actually in many advanced metrics he was top 5.

 

The same people saying "let him go start over" are the same ones who will be crying the most when we start 2-6 next year and Colt McCoy is stinking up the joint.

32nd ranked passer in red zone completion rate. 

 

Maybe some, but not me. I'd like to think that this is a mountain over a moehill situation, maybe it isn't, but it could be, but if he leaves, as long as we are trading him, and not losing him for nothing, more than likely I can live with it, and I won't be crying no matter what record we have early next year, our defense is garbage and we have a lot of key weapons leaving and no run game. Wouldn't surprise me at all if we stunk next year whether Kirk was here or not. Still a lot of building to do. 

[Gizmo 3squire]

1 minute ago, jschuck12001 said:

I typically watch the NFL Network because the information you get is from hall of fame/pro bowl players, coaches, and GM's and the consensus from them is pretty much the same.

 

Sanders and others on that network have said GM's and coaches around the league see him as a tier 3 QB.

 

I think it would be interesting to see how the league values Kirk, I'm not sure they value him as much as people think.

 

I feel the same in regards to how the GM's and others value him vs others. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

That's from ESPN. Not trying to be difficult but not sure what it has to do with what Mike Jones was reporting which is what I was specifically addressing. Mike Jones this year said the Redskins would not even offer Brock Oswieller money last when he himself reported last year that the Redskins were in the $18M/yr range - which is exactly in the Brock O. range.

 

 

The difference with Brock was in the guaranteed money and it was a major difference -- let alone the idea that Brock is Kirk's bar, it should be the reverse of that.  

http://www.csnmidatlantic.com/washington-redskins/did-redskins-lowball-kirk-cousins-contract-talks

If this report is accurate, that Redskins offer is almost shockingly low for Cousins. He is guaranteed $20 million this season alone; it makes almost zero sense to consider a long-term deal for just 20 percent more cash.

Assuming that offer is correct, one must question if the Redskins ever seriously wanted to engage in long-term negotiations for Cousins. In March, Brock Osweiler agreed to a four-year, $72 million deal with $37 million guaranteed. Considering that, Cousins' agent could not with possibly entertain an offer with $24 million guaranteed.

[Gizmo 3squire]

7 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Maybe not top 5 but he was in the top 10 in just about every major statistical category last year. Actually in many advanced metrics he was top 5.

 

The same people saying "let him go start over" are the same ones who will be crying the most when we start 2-6 next year and Colt McCoy is stinking up the joint.

 

 

Not necessarily. I was and sort of still am in the whole "blow it up" category, and expect to be sub par next season, and in 2018 have a different coaching staff and QB. But these days i'm just on a "we'll see what happens." If Cousins stays, whether or not he does well, it is what it is. I don't have any expectations.

[purbeast]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah this is how it looks like to me, too.   If the team doesn't want to go up to $24 million then Kirk's agent forces the issue with the tag.  I don't see how it doesn't go down that way.  I think they do get a deal done if they offer a long term deal at $24 million a year before March 1st -- but it doesn't seem like they plan to do so.

 

To take the team's point of view, if they think (per what Albert Breer suggested) the market is their friend and not their enemy -- then July 15th deadline might work in their favor.  I.e., the 49ers draft a QB high.  Matt Ryan gets extended and its less than what Andrew Luck got paid not more, etc.  

I do understand this thought process, but my worry is that waiting it out is going to drastically hurt our FA acquisitions because no one is going to want to come to a team where the most important position in the sport is not even cemented.  

 

And in the end, what is their end game, to save like $10 million over 5 years?  I mean come on, that is chump change to Danny boy. 

[onedrop]

23 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

And we get nothing like this from Cousins, trade him and fleece the 49ers for a middle of the road QB who wants to be paid like a top 5 guy. Take away the gaudy yardage totals from last year and what do you have? Unlike that redic other post saying he was clutch which is incredibly nieve, what you see is a QB who choked when it matters most all the time, never won a playoff game in his life, who threw for near 5000 yards but could only muster 25 passing TDs during that process, who in college had the NFL's best RB today and couldn't win there, and who is more likely then not losing his WR's this year so you know those yards will come back down to earth next year and won't win as much, and who generally was given a chance by a team and thanked them by trying to screw them for top 5 money at the most expensive position available.

 

I don't care nor do I think anyone else should care that he gives us the best option to win next year, building a team is a process and the best way to fudge that process all up is to dump your WR's 1 and 2 just so you can overpay a guy who can't even come out and say after we made him and gave him his shot that he wants to be here. He doesn't want to be here.

 

Dump him for picks and start over. Throwing good money after bad is dumb.

 

 

 

 

feeling a bit lonely are we? id say theres just a wee bit of difference between a RB and QB not to mention the leverage or lack of that each has. 

 

also, im curious....you deride Cousins for not showing enough love to the team but whine about not signing Garcon and Jackson, BOTH of whom have publicly made overtures about leaving. one more so than the other AND regarding his former team. 

 

and before you start in on WHEN/WHY that all started....does it matter? would it have mattered if it was Cousins? NO, because you are blatantly biased against him based on what he hasnt done, what he hasnt said instead of holding others accountable for what they DID.

[Wildbunny]

9 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

Jack if you paid attention the last two months and really believe that he's been "keeping quiet" then we can't have a reasonable conversation. I can point you to interview after interview where this man was definitely not keeping quiet, he's just not into looking out for this team, or willing to do what is needed to keep his receivers and we aren't accepting the fact that he doesn't want to be here. He wants to be here if he gets over paid. That's not what you build your team around. One year of Cousins without those receivers won't see us in the playoffs, this isn't Tom Brady we are talking about

 

 

 

Lol, the guy stated he would be OK with reworking his deal if need be in the future lol.

And by "keeping quiet" I mean he's not saying stupid stuff one way or the other. He's handling it how he should. But considering how he's under the spotlight right now, he's not speaking much.

 

And ****, it's not his business to negotiate for his WRs... Has Kirk been signed as GM lately? Are we gonna blame Kirk for everything here?