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The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

Ron78

By Ron78
in The Stadium

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Momma There Goes That Man

Momma There Goes That Man

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, elkabong82 said:

 

You keep throwing this same idea of an easily escaped mega contract around in this thread, so prove it. List some QBs who signed a large deal in the past 5 years who's contract is set-up to where it can be easily escaped with no ramifications after 3 seasons, and then justify why Kirk would have signed something similar. It's VERY hard to imagine this being true, so I'd really like to see some actual proof. 

 

There are tons of examples of large contracts that can be broken after 3 years with little dead cap, comparatively. See Josh's Normans for example. After year 3 of this monster contract, he can be released for $9 mil cap hit. Hardly anything to freak out about. 

 

We're talking $45-50 mil guaranteed (Norman got 50 as well) with tons of available cap space over the first couple years on a Cousins deal last offseason. It could have easily been done. 

 

It wouldnt be a a death sentence at all. Kirk would have signed because we'd be handing him $50million dollars (to a guy making $750k maybe? ) and the chance to lead a professional football team and earn more. 

 

We ****ed around with him and now it's going to cost us 

 

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Cliffmark1

Cliffmark1

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Llevron said:

We have been watching cats play this team for every penny they can get for years and all of a sudden we love that ****. 

 

I don't get it. 

Unlike haynesworth, jason taylor, and ...  he can actually play and not just sell jerseys. 

 

If kirk doesn't get signed I would guess 5-10% of the fanbase leaves until they prove they can run a football team instead of a marketing organization. 

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washedup2

washedup2

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, onedrop said:

at this point you are just hating on Cousins. your arguments are simply a biased diatribe against the man that you refuse to apply to everyone else equally. you have zero credibility on the issue. how do YOU know what KIrk or his agent are thinking? you dont, 

 

5 hours ago, bobandweave said:

 

Exactly bro Kirk isn't stupid he's playing the franchise tag game and saying to sign him long term in Washington he demands to be grossly over paid. No forget that. We are stuck in a massive problem

 

Kirks not good enough to win without his best players, but you can't keep the best players if your grossly overspending to keep Kirk. What we need is a hometown discount from Kirk so we can keep our receivers then we can build the defense

 

Since Kirk won't play ball there is no point in not trading him and dumping him.

 

He isn't great he's okay, great mean you don't need playmakers to make plays for you great takes average guys and make them produce. Like Brady. That is not Kirk: if you take away his playmakers what will you have with keeping Kirk? Not much. It's not Kirks fault he isn't Brady but he's stupid for not seeing what he needs to be successful in this league and not making this work to keep everyone. He could have been special here but he wants out of here and only will stay with us if he's chasing the money. We don't need someone like that ruining our team

 

__________

No one knows what he and his agent really think, but your last paragraph is spot on.  He is not worth overpaying.  I'd have 0 problem if we move on from him if we can get picks in return.  He is and I agree with your term, OK, and I would give him "solid".  Us redskin fans are so happy we have a decent qb because of the past qb situation that we feel we have to have him AND pay him top $, not me, his skillset can easily be matched in this O.

 

 

 

 

 

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bobandweave

bobandweave

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, PigskinRedskin said:

He will NEVER come out to say he really wants to be here or that he really doesn't want to be here, especially during contract negotiations. That's just not smart business

 

Disagree so Terrell Pryor isn't doing smart business? Others like Desean Jackson aren't doing smart business? Every single year free agents on this team and others have no issue saying they want to stay with a team are they all wrong? Tom Brady just came out saying he wants to stay where he is, is he dumb too? 

 

Its much more unusal to not say they want to stay with a team then snub it

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PigskinRedskin

PigskinRedskin

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

Disagree so Terrell Pryor isn't doing smart business? Others like Desean Jackson aren't doing smart business? Every single year free agents on this team and others have no issue saying they want to stay with a team are they all wrong? Tom Brady just came out saying he wants to stay where he is, is he dumb too? 

 

Its much more unusal to not say they want to stay with a team then snub it

 

Never mentioned of them, just talking about Kirk. Maybe they have different agents and Kirk's agent is more tight lip? Tom Brady WILL NEVER go anywhere, that's a ridiculous statement.  Desean has always been more vocal, plus WR position isn't as important as QB.

 

This is just a strange statement to make on my statement haha. 

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Taylor703

Taylor703

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Cliffmark1 said:

Unlike haynesworth, jason taylor, and ...  he can actually play and not just sell jerseys. 

 

If kirk doesn't get signed I would guess 5-10% of the fanbase leaves until they prove they can run a football team instead of a marketing organization. 

 

If 5-10% of the fanbase leaves over Kirk Cousins than they never really cared about the team anyway. 

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CapsSkins

CapsSkins

Posted
Posted

As for what he's saying, I think reality is in the middle.

 

Of course at face value, it's just posturing for negotiations. But that being said, players say they want to stay all the time. An athlete saying "I'd love to stay in [CITY], I hope we can work something out" is not code for hometown discount, and agents are the ones playing bad cop anyway. We all know DJax wants to test the market but he still didn't have any problems saying "I'd love to be back with the Redskins." So when Kirk chooses not to, it does signal something to me. In the context of everything he's done / has been through during his time in Washington, I really think it means he doesn't particularly care for the Skins. If we break the bank for him, he'll stay, but he has no qualms leaving and in fact I have a hunch part of him wants to do that to stick it to the FO. 

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Commander -JB-

Commander -JB-

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, Bang said:

 

No, I don't see, becauise it seems like you are suggesting i equate them as players. 

You clearly don't understand based on your response that misses the entire point. 

 

It means no QB is above making a big mistake in a big game, even the greatest of all time.

SO, by using your own simplistic logic, if Brady could have avoided that pick six, well i guess he would have.

But, it would seem he made a mistake.

 

This isn't hard to follow. Mental errors happen to even the best of them. Dragging the entire season down to one play doesn't make sense, especially given all the other factors that caused the team to fail that are not the QB.
What you want to see is a reduction of mental errors, and we have. It's not even debatable. Where that last one happened is unfortunate, but not a counter to the rest of the season's performance. You can't take a near 5000 yard season with TDs doubling INTs and say, well, you made this mistake, so...
It's senseless.

 

~Bang

You're really preaching to me that all players make mistakes.  You're really that arrogant?  Ego is the enemy.  

4 hours ago, Llevron said:

We have been watching cats play this team for every penny they can get for years and all of a sudden we love that ****. 

 

I don't get it. 

You do get it.  You just don't wanna say it.  

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onedrop

onedrop

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, washedup2 said:

No one knows what he and his agent really think, but your last paragraph is spot on.  He is not worth overpaying.  I'd have 0 problem if we move on from him if we can get picks in return.  He is and I agree with your term, OK, and I would give him "solid".  Us redskin fans are so happy we have a decent qb because of the past qb situation that we feel we have to have him AND pay him top $, not me, his skillset can easily be matched in this O.

Not really sure why you quoted me in your response but ok.....

 

NO ONE is "worth" overpaying. See, that's where the "over" part of the word comes in to play. And it's just as likely that some see more in Cousins based on prior QB play as it is that others believe based on 2 years of solid play we somehow deserve to skip the rest of the learning curve and magically draft "elite". 

 

FWIW, I have a few other posts out there you could quote as well....you know, if you wanted to make sure they were visible too. :ols:

 

 

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wit33

wit33

Posted
Posted

All Qbs make critical mistakes, no doubt.

 

The better QBs answer bad plays with adjustments and big plays of their own in response (I understand its not every time these guys come through). If Kirk gets off to a rough start in a game, rarely does it seem he responds or make adjustments. This is where creativity in the pocket, off schedule plays and timely running is such a huge asset - Kirk struggles with adversity in a game. In my opinion, against the better opponents, adversity in a game is almost a guarantee. 

 

"Big Games" often require a team and its QB to rise above adversity and create plays. Kirk is average in this regard. 

 

With that said, I promise I'm on the side of resigning him, but I'm not drinking all the Koolaid when it comes to some labeling him top ten and pointing to his chemistry level type statistical measures.

 

***Side note: I swear some of those statistical measures had equations that could send us to the moon again. 

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PigskinRedskin

PigskinRedskin

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

As for what he's saying, I think reality is in the middle.

 

Of course at face value, it's just posturing for negotiations. But that being said, players say they want to stay all the time. An athlete saying "I'd love to stay in [CITY], I hope we can work something out" is not code for hometown discount, and agents are the ones playing bad cop anyway. We all know DJax wants to test the market but he still didn't have any problems saying "I'd love to be back with the Redskins." So when Kirk chooses not to, it does signal something to me. In the context of everything he's done / has been through during his time in Washington, I really think it means he doesn't particularly care for the Skins. If we break the bank for him, he'll stay, but he has no qualms leaving and in fact I have a hunch part of him wants to do that to stick it to the FO. 

 

He did say just about a month ago: “I’d love to build something in Washington,” Cousins told Dave Richard of CBS Sports.

 

And he said something similar while on ESPN 980 with Doc during Super Bowl Week as well, I believe its been posted before. Sure, its not as glamorous as saying "I absolutely want to be a Redskin for the rest of my career" or something like that but as of right now, sounds like he would like to be here. 

 

He knows the system, the players, the staff, etc. He's seen a fair amount of success playing here and can build on that. Theres a big risk going to San Fran or Buffalo or somewhere similar. Yeah, could pay off but he knows what he has here plus might have a new RB to assist him and can vuils the continuity with Gruden. 

 

He may feel slighted that the organization has just given him a blank check but I think he understands business but also understands this is his chance to cash in. Its tough to say. 

 

Yeah, he still has things to improve on but his floor is quite high, especially for QB play in DC. 

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CapsSkins

CapsSkins

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, PigskinRedskin said:

 

He did say just about a month ago: “I’d love to build something in Washington,” Cousins told Dave Richard of CBS Sports.

 

And he said something similar while on ESPN 980 with Doc during Super Bowl Week as well, I believe its been posted before. Sure, its not as glamorous as saying "I absolutely want to be a Redskin for the rest of my career" or something like that but as of right now, sounds like he would like to be here. 

 

He knows the system, the players, the staff, etc. He's seen a fair amount of success playing here and can build on that. Theres a big risk going to San Fran or Buffalo or somewhere similar. Yeah, could pay off but he knows what he has here plus might have a new RB to assist him and can vuils the continuity with Gruden. 

 

He may feel slighted that the organization has just given him a blank check but I think he understands business but also understands this is his chance to cash in. Its tough to say. 

 

Yeah, he still has things to improve on but his floor is quite high, especially for QB play in DC. 

 

Of course all we can do as fans is speculate, and with Kirk there is enough ammo on both sides.

 

Personally, I have a hunch that with $48M guaranteed over two years and his financial responsibility, he's set money-wise and this isn't about $$ for $$'s sake (like I think it is with DeSean). I think Kirk wants to be wanted, he wants to be courted, he wants the FO to be in love with him, and they just plain aren't. He knows that, and given how much he's gone out of his way to make clear he's comfortable betting on himself, I really think he might sign the tag and insist on playing on it to hit FA next year and sign with whomever wines and dines him the most (and then happily backs up the Brinks truck).

 

That's why more and more I feel like we should tag and trade and get a guy like Tyrod or Alex Smith, and I would go hard at the #2 pick with SF to draft a Jonathan Allen. We'd have plenty of room to stock the cupboards on both sides of the ball with guys like Pierre, DJax, Poe, Berry, Tony Jefferson, Terrelle Pryor, etc. depending on who's available. Even if that's not your preferred course of action, we need to realize Kirk might insist on hitting FA and to lose him for nothing would be disastrous.

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Wildbunny

Wildbunny

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, bobandweave said:

 

Disagree so Terrell Pryor isn't doing smart business? Others like Desean Jackson aren't doing smart business? Every single year free agents on this team and others have no issue saying they want to stay with a team are they all wrong? Tom Brady just came out saying he wants to stay where he is, is he dumb too? 

 

Its much more unusal to not say they want to stay with a team then snub it

Basically Pryor and DJax are, yes.

 

Tom Brady isn't doing contract negotiation, he's a 2020 pending FA. He'll be 43 by then, so he can say whatever he wants he's most likely playing on his last contract.

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CapsSkins

CapsSkins

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Basically Pryor and DJax are, yes.

 

Tom Brady isn't doing contract negotiation, he's a 2020 pending FA. He'll be 43 by then, so he can say whatever he wants he's most likely playing on his last contract.

 

Brady makes way more money off his non-contract revenue streams than he does from the Pats' payroll. Not comparable at all.

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Est.1974

Est.1974

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, elkabong82 said:

 

You keep throwing this same idea of an easily escaped mega contract around in this thread, so prove it. List some QBs who signed a large deal in the past 5 years who's contract is set-up to where it can be easily escaped with no ramifications after 3 seasons, and then justify why Kirk would have signed something similar. It's VERY hard to imagine this being true, so I'd really like to see some actual proof. 

 

Cutlers is kinda that way. 7 year 126mil in 2014. They've had 3 seasons out of it and he's getting ditched some time soon with what looks like a dead cap figure of only 2mil in 2017.

 

We've got enough near term cap space to push a good 60-70mil through 2017-2019 with relative 'ease' for a cap perspective. That will land at about 12% of cap available to be utilised over that period.

 

Not saying we should do it, buy think we could do it from a numbers side quite easily.

 

 

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Momma There Goes That Man

Momma There Goes That Man

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, Llevron said:

We have been watching cats play this team for every penny they can get for years and all of a sudden we love that ****. 

 

I don't get it. 

 

1) It's a little different with a franchise QB 

2) Its a little different with a player in/entering their prime than past aging vets 

3) Its a little different when trying to maintain the best 2yr stretch in 25 years 

4) Its a little different when allegedly there is a legit FO being run by adults 

5) Its a little different when "every penny" still falls under fair comparable market value 

 

I don't get how you think any of the situations are comparable. It's a very poor relation to make on your part 

 

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Bang

Bang

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, -JB- said:

You're really preaching to me that all players make mistakes.  You're really that arrogant?  Ego is the enemy.  

 

 

If you understood that was my point, why the rest?

 

Apparently I'm not following. Sure seemed to me like you weren't tracking with why I brought up Brady.

i mean, when you state that if cousins could have avoided the pick vs the Giants he would have... it seems to me as if you believe he should be above making any mistakes.

 

What am i missing?

 

~Bang

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purbeast

purbeast

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

As for what he's saying, I think reality is in the middle.

 

Of course at face value, it's just posturing for negotiations. But that being said, players say they want to stay all the time. An athlete saying "I'd love to stay in [CITY], I hope we can work something out" is not code for hometown discount, and agents are the ones playing bad cop anyway. We all know DJax wants to test the market but he still didn't have any problems saying "I'd love to be back with the Redskins." So when Kirk chooses not to, it does signal something to me. In the context of everything he's done / has been through during his time in Washington, I really think it means he doesn't particularly care for the Skins. If we break the bank for him, he'll stay, but he has no qualms leaving and in fact I have a hunch part of him wants to do that to stick it to the FO. 

Except Kirk DID say that.  He said he would love to build something with the Redskins...

 

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2017/01/25/kirk-cousins-would-love-to-build-something-in-washington/

 

"I'd love to build something in Washington, we'll see if the decision-makers let that happen."

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Llevron

Llevron

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

1) It's a little different with a franchise QB 

2) Its a little different with a player in/entering their prime than past aging vets 

3) Its a little different when trying to maintain the best 2yr stretch in 25 years 

4) Its a little different when allegedly there is a legit FO being run by adults 

5) Its a little different when "every penny" still falls under fair comparable market value 

 

I don't get how you think any of the situations are comparable. It's a very poor relation to make on your part 

 

 

I'm not talking about all of that. I get that the situation is different. Im commenting on the mental back flips we are doing to justify this guy taking us to the woodshed as a good thing. 

 

Like "yea you get 'em Kirk!" 

 

****s weird to me. I feel like we should be rooting for the team. Currently I see people rooting for the player to get paid. 

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