The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[clskinsfan]

1 minute ago, LadySkinsFan said:

Here's a what if: Redskins assign the transition tag this year, let Kirk get his fair market value offer, we either match it or we get a draft pick?

 

There is no compensation for the transition tag. But if the Skins are going to transition tag Cousins. I would prefer they do it this year as opposed to next year. If they do it this year the Rams are out of the bidding war. Next year with another poor season from Goff they would be in the bidding game. I think Cousins agent may be shocked what Cousins is actually worth on the open market. And of course the Skins could match any offer.

[KokoMike]

ONE YEAR AGO:

This from February 29, 2016 Washington Post:

 

"However, according people with knowledge of the talks, nothing has changed regarding the stance in Cousins’s camp. Confident in his worth, potential and appeal to opposing teams, they had no interest in signing a multi-year deal at this time. The preference was for Cousins to test the market and gauge his worth, although the understanding was that the Redskins likely would use the franchise tag to protect themselves."

 

So, given that Cousins signed the tag almost immediately, only a few days after this smokescreen, it is fair to say we were conned by the Cousins camp.  I guess some of you think getting conned is a good thing.  Well, get ready for Groundhog Day.

[Gizmo 3squire]

1 minute ago, purbeast said:

I heard a great hypothetical scenario yesterday on Grand and Danny...

 

What if this exact past 2 years played out, only it was RG3 at the helm and not Cousins.  Like if he had the exact same record and numbers and did everything exactly the same as KC - would the Redskins and Danny boy have signed him by now?

 

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmm...... Yea they would've have tbh, and it's because he also took them to the playoffs in 2012. My only issue is that it would be Danny trying to force the signing vs the FO actually doing what they're supposed to do. The FO would've taken account the injury history, lockeroom, etc. Just speculation, but to me there's definitely a rift between Cousins and the FO. Moreso a battle of value. I don't necessarily think it's Scot, I think it Bruce plays some role as well.

[Rattlesnake88]

4 minutes ago, purbeast said:

I heard a great hypothetical scenario yesterday on Grand and Danny...

 

What if this exact past 2 years played out, only it was RG3 at the helm and not Cousins.  Like if he had the exact same record and numbers and did everything exactly the same as KC - would the Redskins and Danny boy have signed him by now?

I would say yes. I also however think Griffin is less logical and more passion driven in his decisions and wouldn't be trying to rake the organization over the coals financially. 

 

Griffin also was was more marketable and bankable for the team. 

[clskinsfan]

2 minutes ago, Rattlesnake88 said:

I would say yes. I also however think Griffin is less logical and more passion driven in his decisions and wouldn't be trying to rake the organization over the coals financially. 

 

Griffin also was was more marketable and bankable for the team. 

 

And he was the SECOND pick in the draft as well. And a tremendous price was paid for that pick.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Just now, KokoMike said:

ONE YEAR AGO:

This from February 29, 2016 Washington Post:

 

 

"However, according people with knowledge of the talks, nothing has changed regarding the stance in Cousins’s camp. Confident in his worth, potential and appeal to opposing teams, they had no interest in signing a multi-year deal at this time. The preference was for Cousins to test the market and gauge his worth, although the understanding was that the Redskins likely would use the franchise tag to protect themselves."

 

 

So, given that Cousins signed the tag almost immediately, only a few days after this smokescreen, it is fair to say we were conned by the Cousins camp.  I guess some of you think getting conned is a good thing.  Well, get ready for Groundhog Day.

 

I wouldn't say we got conned at all.  Smokescreen?  He wanted to test the market, Redskins didn't allow that to happen.  Not a smokescreen.  He signed the tag immediately and opened negotiations.  Kirks camp wanted more than the Redskins were willing to pay in a LTD, so he happily played under the tag.  

 

I fully expected and predicted the exact same scenario panning out this year.  Kirk is happy and fine with playing under the tag, why wouldn't he be, it's going to be 44 million guaranteed for two years.  He knows he will get offers from other teams that will pay him, most likely more than he is actually worth, but that's how the market works.  He can only test the market if the Redskins allow him to again this year, which my guess is they won't.  

 

So he will sign the FT once it's applied and start negotiating with an average annual salary of 23.9 million basing it on the FT amount (just like they did last year with the annual salary being 19/20 million/year).  Last year, we didn't pay them what they wanted, so here we are again.  Not sure why anyone really expected anything to be any different.  

 

But Kirk's camp did not con anyone, nor was there any smoke screen.

 

 

[Hail2theSkins24]

Pretty obvious to me Kirk has his eyes set on San Francisco. If he'll only sign a LTD with them, that gives zero leverage to us in trade talks. If we end up giving them Kirk and our 17 for their 2 it will be no better than the other Cousins trade that happened in the sports world. If this ends up happening, everyone who makes personnel decisions in our org needs to be fired 

[KokoMike]

Cousins got the non-exclusive tag last year, enabling him to test the market.  He didn't.

[Warhead36]

I think the plan now is to tag him and hope that the other QB-needy teams address it in other ways, and then maybe work out a long term deal sometime after the draft/before training camp(around the July deadline). If most if not all the other teams get a QB some other way, he may lower his demands some.

 

Personally I'd rather just pay him instead of pinching pennies around the 2-3 million that we seem to be apart on(2-3 mil is chump change at this point).

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

5 minutes ago, Rattlesnake88 said:

I would say yes. I also however think Griffin is less logical and more passion driven in his decisions and wouldn't be trying to rake the organization over the coals financially. 

 

Griffin also was was more marketable and bankable for the team. 

 

I don't see it this way, it's a business.  He believes that since the Skins were willing to tag him last year and pay him 20 million for one year that it's his annual worth over the life of the contract.  Skins believed that he was worth 20 million for one year, but not 20 million/yr over five.  Same thing will happen this year, now they believe his worth is 23.9/24 million per year.  So it depends on what the Skins believe his worth is now.

 

They had an opportunity to offer him 20 million/yr last year and chose not to.  No reason for Kirk to not ask for 24 million/yr this year.  He is going to get it at least for one year and knows other teams will pay it.  So I don't really see that as raking the organization over the coals financially.  Redskins made the decision to not pay him last year and now they reap what they sow.  

 

It's about as simple as it gets (assuming Kirk's camp will ask for something doable and not crazy in regards to guaranteed money, signing bonus, etc.), that we pay him 24/25 million/yr and make a ton of his contract fully guaranteed.  Or he plays for 24 million this year again and they are faced with more problems and decisions to make in 2018.  

[Taylor 36]

6 minutes ago, Hail2theSkins24 said:

Pretty obvious to me Kirk has his eyes set on San Francisco. If he'll only sign a LTD with them, that gives zero leverage to us in trade talks. If we end up giving them Kirk and our 17 for their 2 it will be no better than the other Cousins trade that happened in the sports world. If this ends up happening, everyone who makes personnel decisions in our org needs to be fired 

How is this obvious?  There has not been one factual piece of evidence released that can support this claim that I know about, just pure speculation. Please let me know what I've missed that could possibly make this "obvious."

[Warhead36]

2 hours ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Let me know when KC gets a championship or comes close to a 5000 yard season then he will be worth 23 mil a year. I did not forget that DB has been a starter since he came into the league, unlike KC who had to sit the bench. I did not forget about DB big 10 passing records while KC was lucky to be a starter. I did not forget since joining the Saints DB has led ALL nfl QBs in passing and TDs. I did not forget that KC has 4 very good receivers and that my aunt Tilly could complete a million passes if she had them. I guess we should pay KC,  Big Ben, Eli, and Drew Brees money because he had better numbers than DB his first 2 years as a starter even though he sat the bench for his first 2-3 years. Only on ES will you find someone to spin a thread and dare to compare KC to Drew Brees. What is next, KC is the next Joe Montana? Cheers.

But again...thats not the argument! Nobody is arguing if Cousins is a superstar or elite. The crux is: does he do well in clutch situations or big game spots. The facts say yes he does, more often then not. EVERY time? No, he has had moments where he plays poorly or "chokes." But the #s show he does well in the clutch or big game spots 2 out of every 3 times.

 

And again, QB salaries always shoot up. The next guy always makes more then the last guy. At one point Joe Flacco was the highest paid QB. Cousins deal will probably make him the highest paid, until next year when someone like Carr resigns. Then wait a year or two after that when Winston, Mariotta, Prescott, etc. have to resign.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

I think the plan now is to tag him and hope that the other QB-needy teams address it in other ways, and then maybe work out a long term deal sometime after the draft/before training camp(around the July deadline). If most if not all the other teams get a QB some other way, he may lower his demands some.

 

Personally I'd rather just pay him instead of pinching pennies around the 2-3 million that we seem to be apart on(2-3 mil is chump change at this point).

 

There isn't any negotiations yet, at least not from what I read.  They have said he wont sign a LTD before the tag deadline and would then sign the FT and start negotiations at 23.9/yr.  So I don't think there is any penny pinching yet.

[NeverSurrender]

Can we just tag him already and get to work on the defense?

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Just now, NeverSurrender said:

Can we just tag him already and get to work on the defense?

 

I honestly think that the thread should be locked until March 2nd after the FT deadline since nothing is going to happen until after then.  Would give us all a nice break from debating/arguing/etc. over the same stuff.  

[Gizmo 3squire]

38 minutes ago, purbeast said:

I heard a great hypothetical scenario yesterday on Grand and Danny...

 

What if this exact past 2 years played out, only it was RG3 at the helm and not Cousins.  Like if he had the exact same record and numbers and did everything exactly the same as KC - would the Redskins and Danny boy have signed him by now?

 

Also if Griffins camp was doing the same thing that Cousins camp is doing in regards to contract negotiations and LTD, would it be perceived the same by many fans as "getting the money he deserves, it's just business , pay the man" or would it be "hijacking the franchise"?

[wit33]

3 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

They had an opportunity to offer him 20 million/yr last year and chose not to.  No reason for Kirk to not ask for 24 million/yr this year.  He is going to get it at least for one year and knows other teams will pay it.  So I don't really see that as raking the organization over the coals financially.  Redskins made the decision to not pay him last year and now they reap what they sow.  

 

It's about as simple as it gets (assuming Kirk's camp will ask for something doable and not crazy in regards to guaranteed money, signing bonus, etc.), that we pay him 24/25 million/yr and make a ton of his contract fully guaranteed.  Or he plays for 24 million this year again and they are faced with more problems and decisions to make in 2018.  

 

This all sounds solid, but none of it is based on facts, as facts don't exist in this conversation, due to no information being known. All we know is last year Kirk signed the franchise tag. 

[Gizmo 3squire]

2 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

I honestly think that the thread should be locked until March 2nd after the FT deadline since nothing is going to happen until after then.  Would give us all a nice break from debating/arguing/etc. over the same stuff.  

 

Sort of agree to this.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

12 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

This all sounds solid, but none of it is based on facts, as facts don't exist in this conversation, due to no information being known. All we know is last year Kirk signed the franchise tag. 

 

So it's based on speculation.  I'd say the majority of what was speculated last year is fact because the exact same scenario is about to play out this year.   Bottom line, Kirk wanted X and got offered Y.  And Y was obviously lower than X, enough to where he took the 20 million/yr instead of signing a LTD.  

 

Same thing is about to go down after the tag deadline this year.  Kirk is going to want X again and one of the following is going to happen:

1.  Both sides agree on X

2.  Skins offer Y (lower than X)

3.  Both sides negotiate to Z and both sides agree

4.  Kirk signs FT and takes the 24 million/yr

[Rattlesnake88]

24 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

I don't see it this way, it's a business.  He believes that since the Skins were willing to tag him last year and pay him 20 million for one year that it's his annual worth over the life of the contract.  Skins believed that he was worth 20 million for one year, but not 20 million/yr over five.  Same thing will happen this year, now they believe his worth is 23.9/24 million per year.  So it depends on what the Skins believe his worth is now.

 

They had an opportunity to offer him 20 million/yr last year and chose not to.  No reason for Kirk to not ask for 24 million/yr this year.  He is going to get it at least for one year and knows other teams will pay it.  So I don't really see that as raking the organization over the coals financially.  Redskins made the decision to not pay him last year and now they reap what they sow.  

 

It's about as simple as it gets (assuming Kirk's camp will ask for something doable and not crazy in regards to guaranteed money, signing bonus, etc.), that we pay him 24/25 million/yr and make a ton of his contract fully guaranteed.  Or he plays for 24 million this year again and they are faced with more problems and decisions to make in 2018.  

Some of the reports are that he is taking the franchise tags until we can't afford to do so then either we blow him away with record breaking deal or we let someone else do so. Business? Yes, though very shrewd and greasy. Not very inspiring...

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Rattlesnake88 said:

Last season he "came close" to a 5k season. Poor example.

Lots of things KC does is close. He was close to competing that last pass against the Giants too. Do you want to pay him 23 mil to come close?  DB has 5 5000yd passing seasons. Only 2 other seasons have guys passed for 5000 yards and DB has 5. Great example.

[Rattlesnake88]

Just now, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Lots of things KC does is close. He was close to competing that last pass against the Giants too. Do you want to pay him 23 mil to come close?  DB has 5 5000yd passing seasons. Only 2 other seasons have guys passed for 5000 yards and DB has 5. Great example.

I'm not disagreeing with a lot you are saying. Just highlighting a poor example you used.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

12 minutes ago, Rattlesnake88 said:

Some of the reports are that he is taking the frtags until we can't afford to do so then either we blow him away with record breaking deal or we let someone else do so. Business? Yes, though very shrewd and greasy. Not very inspiring...

 

It's part of the business side and the process, it's in the CBA.  Teams know that this could happen so they shouldn't feel slighted by a player when the player chooses to sign the FT and take the huge salary that comes with it for one year.  

 

If they didn't want this to happen then the owners shouldn't have signed off on it in the CBA.  It's not shrewd and greasy, it's what he is allowed to do if he chooses to do so.  If he wants out, so be it.  He's not holding the team hostage, they are the ones that applied the tag restricting him from negotiating with another team.  It's smart business and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way Kirk and camp have handled this. 

 

He wants a huge payday, every player wants that.  As much as us fans want to believe that players want to be here or there and don't care about the money, that's just not the case.  Those guys are an injury away from never playing again, they are securing their future financially.  Sure, towards the end of careers, we get to see some players offer hometown discounts so they can stay with a team they played with for a while, etc.  But this is not the case here.  

 

I don't think anyone should fault the man for believing in himself and thinking/knowing he will get a big pay day, even if it's from another team.  He's never going to come out and just say it's about the money or that he wants to play elsewhere.  Though if he did, it really wouldn't bother me either.  I love DJax, he said he wants to stay here but will take the best offer that comes his way, and that's fine with everyone.  But not if Kirk signs multiple tags to boost his $$$ in hopes of signing a huge deal?

 

If Kirk thinks the best offer is to play under the tag two years in a row and try to maximize his potential future earnings, so be it.  It was one of his options.  

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

But again...thats not the argument! Nobody is arguing if Cousins is a superstar or elite. The crux is: does he do well in clutch situations or big game spots. The facts say yes he does, more often then not. EVERY time? No, he has had moments where he plays poorly or "chokes." But the #s show he does well in the clutch or big game spots 2 out of every 3 times.

 

And again, QB salaries always shoot up. The next guy always makes more then the last guy. At one point Joe Flacco was the highest paid QB. Cousins deal will probably make him the highest paid, until next year when someone like Carr resigns. Then wait a year or two after that when Winston, Mariotta, Prescott, etc. have to resign.

Look, KC is a good QB. He is not elite and he wants elite money. My complaint is that he has a tendency to throw ints when they hurt the most. If the Redskins thought he was elite they would have signed him long term last year.  He is not Ben, Arron or Drew or anything close to elite and I think the money he wants can be spent better in other ways. That's all. Now if he signs a long term deal for what is his true worth I would say fine but 23mil, wtf

[Warhead36]

12 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Look, KC is a good QB. He is not elite and he wants elite money. My complaint is that he has a tendency to throw ints when they hurt the most. If the Redskins thought he was elite they would have signed him long term last year.  He is not Ben, Arron or Drew or anything close to elite and I think the money he wants can be spent better in other ways. That's all. Now if he signs a long term deal for what is his true worth I would say fine but 23mil, wtf

There is no real differentiation between good money and elite money. QBs get paid, period. If you want to contend you pay your QB north of 20 mil. If you don't you end up with the Colt McCoys of the world and are back in 5-11 land.

 

You don't need a Rodgers/Brees type to win titles, but you need a good QB and you have to pay the big bucks to keep them once you have them. Cousins is a damn good QB who at times through stretches played elite.