The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[PigskinRedskin]

Wait, so we signed Flacco? Or is Cousins really Flacco? I'm confused...I do see the resemblance with all the shoving though:

[Morneblade]

1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

Hmmm OK:

 

		15 Games
Rk	Year	Date	G#	Age	Tm		Opp	Result	GS	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Rate	Sk	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD	TD	Pts
6	2010	2011-01-09	17	25-358	BAL	@	KAN	W 30-7	*	25	34	73.53	265	2	0	115.4	4	17	7.79	8.97	7	26	3.71	0	0	0
7	2010	2011-01-15	18	25-364	BAL	@	PIT	L 24-31	*	16	30	53.33	125	1	1	61.1	5	34	4.17	3.33	2	-1	-0.50	0	0	0
Rk	Year	Date	G#	Age	Tm		Opp	Result	GS	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Rate	Sk	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD	TD	Pts
8	2011	2012-01-15	17	26-364	BAL		HOU	W 20-13	*	14	27	51.85	176	2	0	97.1	5	36	6.52	8.00	2	-1	-0.50	0	0	0
9	2011	2012-01-22	18	27-006	BAL	@	NWE	L 20-23	*	22	36	61.11	306	2	1	95.4	3	24	8.50	8.36	4	27	6.75	0	0	0
Rk	Year	Date	G#	Age	Tm		Opp	Result	GS	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Rate	Sk	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD	TD	Pts
10	2012	2013-01-06	17	27-356	BAL		IND	W 24-9	*	12	23	52.17	282	2	0	125.6	1	13	12.26	14.00	3	-3	-1.00	0	0	0
11	2012	2013-01-12	18	27-362	BAL	@	DEN	W 38-35	*	18	34	52.94	331	3	0	116.2	1	7	9.74	11.50	2	7	3.50	0	0	0
12	2012	2013-01-20	19	28-004	BAL	@	NWE	W 28-13	*	21	36	58.33	240	3	0	106.2	2	5	6.67	8.33	3	12	4.00	0	0	0
13	2012	2013-02-03	20	28-018	BAL	N	SFO	W 34-31	*	22	33	66.67	287	3	0	124.2	2	13	8.70	10.52	0	0		0	0	0
Rk	Year	Date	G#	Age	Tm		Opp	Result	GS	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Rate	Sk	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD	TD	Pts
14	2014	2015-01-03	17	29-352	BAL	@	PIT	W 30-17	*	18	29	62.07	259	2	0	114.0	1	13	8.93	10.31	8	8	1.00	0	0	0
15	2014	2015-01-10	18	29-359	BAL	@	NWE	L 31-35	*	28	45	62.22	292	4	2	92.1	0	0	6.49	6.27	0	0		0	0	0

 

I see you left his first 2 years in the playoffs, where he was horrible. Why did you do that?

 

•  
•  
•  
•  
•  

Oh wait..................................we both know why.

[Veryoldschool]

No one here or in the media knows what the Skins are offering or what  Cousins and his agent are asking or for, only the parties in the discussions know the truth.  That said, I have a lot more confidence in the judgement of Kirk Cousins than I do the Redskins. Kirk is a very impressive, sensible, grounded young man.  The Redskins on the other hand have been a clown show under Snyder.

 

It has been 20 years of stupidity under Snyder with one enormous blunder following another including letting good quarterbacks get away.  Letting Cousins slip away in 2018 would be the grand daddy of screw ups but we all know Snyder and company are capable of blowing it so the longer this drags on the more I think about all the painful mistakes Snyder has made and the angrier I get with the Skins.  

[50yrSKINSfan]

With all due respect to the OP I think you are giving KC too much credit. In the 1st Giant game they were in field goal range or close to the red zone, at the end, if I remember when Eli threw the interception to loose it for them. The Giants would have won if Eli was not such a bum. In the second Giant game KC was running to his left and he threw back to his right, against the grain, and lost us a chance to win. That was a big game. He lost the Cowboy game with a bad int. He looked like a deer in the headlights against the Steelers. I think with the good pass blocking line, not great mind you, and with the receivers we have it is not that big of a deal to put up big numbers but throwing 4th quarter ints are bush. I think he has a loosing record overall and I cannot remember him ever beating a really good team on the road. I really like KC but I just do not think guys that throw 4th quarter ints are worth 23 mil a year. That is Drew Brees money and KC is not Drew Brees. A winning QB is the guy that takes you down the field at crunch time and wins it for you, not throw a int. We need to rebuild our D and 23 mil a year could go a long way. You are not going to get a kid in the draft to be a good pass rusher so you are going to have to pay big time for one.

[theTruthTeller]

46 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

No one here or in the media knows what the Skins are offering or what  Cousins and his agent are asking or for, only the parties in the discussions know the truth.  That said, I have a lot more confidence in the judgement of Kirk Cousins than I do the Redskins. Kirk is a very impressive, sensible, grounded young man.  The Redskins on the other hand have been a clown show under Snyder.

 

It has been 20 years of stupidity under Snyder with one enormous blunder following another including letting good quarterbacks get away.  Letting Cousins slip away in 2018 would be the grand daddy of screw ups but we all know Snyder and company are capable of blowing it so the longer this drags on the more I think about all the painful mistakes Snyder has made and the angrier I get with the Skins.  

I still think that no one will want to be known as the guy who screwed up signing Kirk twice.  Before March 1, the Skins will offer a contract with pretty much everything Kirk wants.  I'm sure if you negotiate player contracts for a living, you hate the idea of not playing hardball.  But there is no realistic alternative to signing Kirk, so its better to get the contract signed now and start the season out on a positive note.

 

At least, that's what I keep telling myself.

[srtman04]

17 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said:

I still think that no one will want to be known as the guy who screwed up signing Kirk twice.  Before March 1, the Skins will offer a contract with pretty much everything Kirk wants.  I'm sure if you negotiate player contracts for a living, you hate the idea of not playing hardball.  But there is no realistic alternative to signing Kirk, so its better to get the contract signed now and start the season out on a positive note.

 

At least, that's what I keep telling myself.

This would make the most ****ing sense if you want to keep winning.  Apparently, Dan Snyder doesn't want to do that.  He would rather continue to run a dysfunctional organization...while simultaneously ****ing the fans over and over again. The real question is, which position are we going to bend over in next year?   

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, onedrop said:

it seems that debating statements of a subjective nature based on assumptive conjecture derived from gut feelings represented as facts has finally reached critical mass and no one has a clue what anyone else is actually saying any longer.

This topic has been in the washing machine spin cycle for a while now.  I really hope we don't F this up, that's all I ask.

[Warhead36]

I don't understand the deer in the headlights look that people see from Cousins. I don't see that at all. If anything he is too energetic/hyped up and that causes him some issues.

 

And people need to stop attaching win/loss records to the QB. Wanna know who has a winning record in road playoff games? Mark Sanchez. Doesn't mean jack.

[Veryoldschool]

54 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said:

I still think that no one will want to be known as the guy who screwed up signing Kirk twice.  Before March 1, the Skins will offer a contract with pretty much everything Kirk wants.  I'm sure if you negotiate player contracts for a living, you hate the idea of not playing hardball.  But there is no realistic alternative to signing Kirk, so its better to get the contract signed now and start the season out on a positive note.

 

At least, that's what I keep telling myself.

 

I think the Skins have already missed the deadline for starting things out on positive note.  Maybe most of the Redskin fans aren't as  agitated as I and many others here but I believe a lot Skin fans have a lot of suppressed anger at Snyder and this brings it to the surface.  After the 2015 they didn't want to risk looking like chumps again if Kirk couldn't sustain his top 10 level of play so they didn't offer Kirk a top 10 deal, but SM offered the proviso that he'd be happy to overpay if Kirk sustained.  Obviously Cousins performed so now it's a top 5 offered that is requested and a top 5 offer should have already been tendered.  Failing to do so is graceless and stupid because as you pointed out they have choice.  Yet they elect to stick to stupid.

[Burgold]

28 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

I think the Skins have already missed the deadline for starting things out on positive note.  Maybe most of the Redskin fans aren't as  agitated as I and many others here but I believe a lot Skin fans have a lot of suppressed anger at Snyder and this brings it to the surface.  After the 2015 they didn't want to risk looking like chumps again if Kirk couldn't sustain his top 10 level of play so they didn't offer Kirk a top 10 deal, but SM offered the proviso that he'd be happy to overpay if Kirk sustained.  Obviously Cousins performed so now it's a top 5 offered that is requested and a top 5 offer should have already been tendered.  Failing to do so is graceless and stupid because as you pointed out they have choice.  Yet they elect to stick to stupid.

It's not really about us though. It's about the Cousins' camp. If they feel like they are being strung along or underloved especially when so many others are whispering sweet nothings (tampering) and telling Cousins how beautiful he is... then the road to signing gets tougher and tougher.

 

I have no idea if the Redskins (or Cousins' camp for that matter) are negotiating in good faith or playing the usual contract games. This is one time, where because of lack of leverage, I wold love for the Redskins to come out strong from the gate.

[wit33]

3 hours ago, tomwvr said:

I have Raven Fans in my Family I have Raven Fans all around where I live - if the Ravens could trade Flaco for Cousins they would be the first ones in line to do it - every Raven fan I know can't stand him.

 

 

And Flaco is no more talented then Cousins - he has more experience...

 

 

Ya man, I'm not a big Flacco supporter, but I get the argument for him over Kirk. They're both middle of the league starters. 

 

I was just saying Flacco is Taller, Bigger, Stronger and has more arm talent. Not that these things are everything, but it can make it difference in big games, you know.

[markmills67]

8 days and counting until franchise tag deadline, and I for one will be a utterly dejected Washington Redskins fan if we don't sign Cousins to a LTD. There is no way in my mind that Cousins signs a LTD with the Skins if he signs the franchise tag. 

 

HTTR 

[Skinsinparadise]

IMO if you are into the Kirk contract goings on -- the Jones interview I think is well worth a listen.  Generally, he's not a reporter who just throws stuff against the wall.  His take was more specific than anything I've heard so far as to what's going on -- and I've tortured myself by listening to just about everything by everyone.  

 

http://stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=65&c=21773&f=5853213

[Veryoldschool]

12 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

8 days and counting until franchise tag deadline, and I for one will be a utterly dejected Washington Redskins fan if we don't sign Cousins to a LTD. There is no way in my mind that Cousins signs a LTD with the Skins if he signs the franchise tag. 

 

HTTR 

 

That is exactly how I feel, you said it more concisely.  

[wit33]

2 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

That is exactly how I feel, you said it more concisely.  

 

As much as I've enjoyed the back and forth debates on here, it's best the Skins sign Kirk long-term. Get the franchise focused on other areas of needed improvement. 

 

Hopefully Kirk allows for this to happen. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

So let me get this straight...if we don't have a LTD signed by march 1st, and no franchise tag has been given yet by then, then our only options are LTD or he sees what other offers he gets 8 days after that when free agency starts. Is that right?

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

8 days and counting until franchise tag deadline, and I for one will be a utterly dejected Washington Redskins fan if we don't sign Cousins to a LTD. There is no way in my mind that Cousins signs a LTD with the Skins if he signs the franchise tag. 

 

HTTR 

 

I am back and forth on no long term deal if it doesn't come together before July 15th.  I see the logic to that argument and I've backed that logic.  But previously I thought the July 15th was the more likely scenario.  To play devil's advocate I think July 15th is in play if some luck goes the Redskins way and that's mainly SF securing a QB with a high draft pick or trade.  If that happens then arguably Kirk's leverage might change.  You also will likely have 3-4 teams that will take first round QBs.  Plus Garropollo might be traded, plus Romo goes somewhere.  You could have 6 teams who are currently in the market for a QB out of the market after the draft and FA.   

 

If Albert Breer is correct in that the Redskins want for the market to answer what Kirk gets paid then the best way to do that is let all of that unfold.  Might be why JLC thinks he will get a long term contract but it will happen at the July 15th deadline not the March 1st.  I get the argument about March 1st being the be all and end all -- and I lean in that direction myself but I do think July 15th is a possibility, too. 

 

I do think the Mike Jones link I posted is worth a listen.  I've read and heard probably 50 segments at this point on Kirk over the last 2 months -- Jones was the most specific and even though he was pessimistic about it coming together -- I thought there was some positive aspects of what he said including there is some negotiating going on, the Redskins realize what it will take to land him, Kirk's not asking for anything outrageous, etc.

6 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

So let me get this straight...if we don't have a LTD signed by march 1st, and no franchise tag has been given yet by then, then our only options are LTD or he sees what other offers he gets 8 days after that when free agency starts. Is that right?

 

If he isn't tagged by March 1st then he becomes a FA unless he's signed before FA starts.  It doesn't sound like not tagging him is in play though.  Sounds like its get a LTD done before tagging him or tagging him before March 1st and hope that you get a LTD before July 15th.

[joeken24]

Business calls for a franchise tag. The team gains some semblance of leverage by waiting for the market. The problem with that is you're still playing hardball with your so-called franchise QB. But "not a good look" does mean a hill of beans if you're looking to build a team for the long haul. It may cause a few more media conversations but that about it. I think they know what they have in Kirk. They realize that Kirk is the type of guy that takes pride in his work, doesn't take things personal and can compartmentalize things. There are players in the league that will become a bit more sensitive when things like this happens and you'll see it in their play. Lets hope I'm not characterizing Kirk in error.

Definitely Franchise tag. 

 

 

 

 

[DogofWar1]

I just can't stomach the thought of wandering in the wilderness again, and especially not after we've got a "homegrown" guy here.  It would be a historic blunder to let him leave if he's successful elsewhere.  I'd vastly prefer to spend 3 years frustrated by Cousins before we cut him than to let him walk and suddenly watch him do decently with Kyle or someone.  Not to mention, if this turns into a mess, it probably means Scot is out the door in a couple years unless a miracle happens.  And if that happens...

 

Really hoping for LTD before the 1st and that they're just keeping quiet.  Honestly, 23.9M?  That's a good deal.  Unless he's demanding all that guaranteed or something I take that in a heartbeat.  I mean the base salary cap is 168M and we've got extra room saved up above even that.  Our cap space is at 58M.  Unless we're gonna buy a half dozen All-Pros, we can't burn through that.  And in 3 years when the cap is sneaking towards 200M, that 23.9M is gonna look like a pittance compared to the 5+ QBs around the league making north of 25M, including that one guy who got a 28M/year contract in 2020.

[TheItalianStallion]

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 10:08 AM, Warhead36 said:

[edit]

 

Now its 2014...not gonna lie, a rocky season for Cousins. He starts off well though. After coming in in relief for RG3 in Week 2, Cousins lights up the Jags for 250 and 2 scores. Considering we were 0-1, you could argue this was a big spot for us. I won't count it as clutch though. The next week in Philly Cousins continues his hot play, putting up a whooping 400+ yards and 3 TDs and leading the team to 34 points and at one point a double digit lead. Unfortunately the D and ST suck and we lose, but in a big game spot Cousins came up big. Sure would be nice if the guy had a D right?

 

The rest of 2014 is rocky for Cousins. He plays awfully against the Giants at home on TNF, then actually puts up a decent statistical performance on MNF against the defending champion Seahawks(283 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs)but we were never really a threat to win that game. He puts up 354 and 2 TDs in Arizona the next week, but also has 3 picks, then gets benched the next week against the Titans. I don't know if any of these are really considered clutch moments, considering we had 1 win going into the Cardinal/Titan games.

 

Going back to the clutch count, I'm going to give Cousins a clutch point for the Eagles game, and give him an anti clutch point for the Giants game. So far the count is: 4 good clutch, 2 bad clutch.

 

[edit]

 

Cowboys-big game(home vs. a rival.) Statistically Cousins was good, until that last pick in the end zone. Still, we have the lead in the 4th. D can't hold. No good or bad.

 

 

 

I don't see how you can't count the Philly game in 2014 as bad clutch. Yes, he was a monster for most of the game, but he threw a bad INT in the 4th which led to a FG, and threw 4 straight incompletions when he had a chance to tie or take the lead.

 

I also think you have to count the 2014 Arizona game as bad clutch. All 3 of those INTs came in the 4th, and we still had a shot at winning after the first 2.

 

Same with the 1st Dallas game this past year: he threw a bad INT while in scoring position during the 4th, and threw an incompletion on 4th & short later.

 

Your overall point is a good one, but those particular games should be counted differently IMO.

[Voice_of_Reason]

There is a Gruden thought haven't heard mentioned.  Let's say Gruden thinks Kirk is good, but didn't progress in some areas as he wanted him to.  He knows the offense (clearly, it's his offense), and knows better than anybody what Kirk should have done better this past year.

 

If Gruden thinks that Kirk is "the best of the good" and can't progress past that, which means that he's always going to struggle against top defenses and competition, does Gruden really want to tie himself to that? 

 

Let's say Gruden likes, but does not love Kirk.  But the team pays him $80 mil guaranteed over 5 years.  You know that that means?  Kirk is here for 5 years.  Let's say that the 'Skins continue to go ~8-8 over the next 2 years (maybe 9-7 tossed in), then what.  Do Allen and McLoughan start thinking that they have to change coaches?  Because at that point, they CAN'T change QBs.

 

The going theory has always been that it's GMSM that's on the fence, and he just doesn't want to give him the money because he believes that Kirk isn't a top-tier guy.

 

What if it's not just GMSM.  What if it's Gruden also. Gruden hasn't said beans about it one way or another.  But the way this thing is playing out, the more I think about it, the more I think that Gruden is not sold either.

 

If they decide to tag-trade Kirk, then Gruden has a new lease on life.  Depending on which direction they go, he might have a rookie QB starting for him, and that lowers expectations.  Or they have a vet playing "fill-in" while they groom somebody.   Either way, he has some breathing room.

 

If they give him the long term deal, it is almost a "win now, dammit" type of situation.  And IF Gruden isn't entirely sold that Kirk is going to win that playoff game against a top defense (see: Giants game, which was essentially a playoff game against a top defense), then he might be part of the "hold-on there nelley" crowd.

[skinsfan35yrs.]

On 2/17/2017 at 2:30 PM, Taylor 36 said:

 

 

Let's be honest, if Cousins doesn't throw that pick at the end of the Giants game and leads us to a TD and seals the victory and a PO spot, does anyone really say much about how bad the offense looked for the majority of the game?  No, because they stepped up and got the job done in the end, which is what matters. That's what the offense did in the Lions game and it's what the defense failed to do in that game.

I point out all the time even in a win how we may have looked thru out the game or how lucky but I get labeled a negative nanny or naysayer but all I do is point out the truth.We are far from being a dominant team on both sides of the ball. I like Kirk but I too feel  there is something missing in him. He can drive 80 yards all day but when it comes to that last 20 there is a huge hiccup, why? Like some one said we just cant insert that dagger to where we can coast at the end. Every game is a nail biter. Yes the D plays a big part in that but if we had scored a TD instead of a FG then we would not have had to worry about the D so much now would we have?

[evmiii]

KC has made it clear he will sign the franchise tag immediately.  I would expect no long term contract after that which would be acceptable to KC that didn't start at the tag number.  I don't think the Redskins will pay that, so I don't think the Redskins will use the tag.

 

KC hits the open market and his actual worth will be determined by the market.  He might end up back in DC when all is said and done at fair market value.  I think the Redskins would prefer to have him back, but not enough to over pay in the GMs mind.

 

Prediction.  KC starts somewhere else next year (not my personal preference), someone not currently on the roster starts opening day in DC (like Romo).  We draft a QB in the 3rd/4th that GM likes and groom for a year and start all over.

 

We will know the first part (tag) very soon, the rest will follow suit.  Hope I'm wrong.

[skins island connection]

46 minutes ago, skinsfan35yrs. said:

I point out all the time even in a win how we may have looked thru out the game or how lucky but I get labeled a negative nanny or naysayer but all I do is point out the truth.We are far from being a dominant team on both sides of the ball. I like Kirk but I too feel  there is something missing in him. He can drive 80 yards all day but when it comes to that last 20 there is a huge hiccup, why? Like some one said we just cant insert that dagger to where we can coast at the end. Every game is a nail biter. Yes the D plays a big part in that but if we had scored a TD instead of a FG then we would not have had to worry about the D so much now would we have?

 

 Yes, Cousins is not god.  He cannot part the sea, make wine from water, nor walk on water.

 The part in bold is what some are missing.

 A. The defense [ if that's what you call it ] is poorly coached and in dire need of at least 4 decent/good players. Insert said player anywhere in the defense you like.

 B. No running game. Yea, Rob is ok at best, but nothing close to a good back. Maybe he needs more time to develop, but we do not have a dependable short yardage rusher who we can count on at least 75% of the time to get those tough 2-4 yards.

 C. O-line is good at pass protection but poor at run blocking. 2 good linemen and a little creativity in scheme can fix that.

 D. A WR over 6 feet tall. Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but we don't have a tall WR who can out jump anyone. All our WRs are speedy, shifty, durable, great hands, but not a single one can go up and bring down the ball securely.  An AJ Green type of player if you will.

 E. Playbook expansion. The more KC can take from the playbook, the better his options are. It seems that he is limited to a certain amount of calls to work with, so the more plays he has to choose from, the better his odds. But that also comes with the coach giving him that option to call or change plays freely as he sees a need for it.

 

But all of these things are not worth much if there's no stability. Changing a QB every 2, even 1 year does not give the offense a chance to flow together. There's always some who are not familiar with whats going on in the field, the flow of the game, the urgency, the knack of knowing what a WR will do in certain situations and the ability to adjust on the fly to maximize  effectiveness. A chemistry is always talked about on teams, and the main ingredient is the QB.  when you come across one who looks promising, you don't throw him to the curb because he didn't get the job done after only 2 years. Hec, the NFL would be chaotic every year if 28 QBs were on the open market, there would be bidding wars everywhere, and to those poor few who paid the most would find that they don't have money to pay the towel boy.

 

Cousins has done a lot in the time he's been here. Yes, there is more to do for him and everyone knows it including himself. If he leaves, another QB comes in, struggles for 2 years, same old argument arises, and its wash rinse repeat.  At some point one has to try something different if the status quo hasn't changed, and changing QBs every 2 years is the glaring problem. Give the guy some help in the above mentioned areas and he can get it done, but he can't do it alone.

 

[Commander -JB-]

Tom Brady.  Kirk Cousins.  See what I did there?  @Bang