Kilmer17 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 “Former President Barack Obama also faced criticism for his administration’s use of family detention centers, especially amid the 2014 surge of Central American migrants arriving at the border, often fleeing violence in their home countries.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: So it was happening under Obama? The false equivalency comes from the period during the Obama administration when central American children were showing up unaccompanied at the border. No parents around, so they passed legislation to protect those children and keep them isolated. Trump is now using/grossly reinterpreting that statute to separate children from their parents, which was never the intent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: “Former President Barack Obama also faced criticism for his administration’s use of family detention centers, especially amid the 2014 surge of Central American migrants arriving at the border, often fleeing violence in their home countries.” Did they detain families or separated children? Detaining children separately has occurred before. If border patrol suspects that the adult accompanying the children are not parent or guardian, they will separate the children from the adults (sometimes children are given up to smugglers for various reasons). Obviously, unaccompanied minors will be detained without parents. When parents are charged with a crime, they can be separated as well. My understanding is that they used to reserve the last case for felonies like drug smuggling, repeated illegal crossing, etc. Trump is charging every illegal crosser with a crime (misdemeanor for first timers) and using that as a cause to separate the children from parents. This isn't some continuation of a previous administration's practice. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD0506 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Again we are all caught up in the immediacy of what's happening, the reports of cages that "we don't want called cages" and "summer camp" commentary specifically designed to yank your chain, but don't lose sight of the larger picture. This is not even remotely the worst thing they plan or we will see before the summer's out. I cringe at the thought of what the chyrons will be by Xmas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Switchgear Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 From what I've read, there were also family separations under the Obama administration if there was a concern for child welfare, if the child seemed endangered. That is the Obama era family separation that was criticized at the time, Kilmer. Now they're all being separated. It's ludicrous that there's any comparison between the two whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 That makes sense. it was ok to detain kids like this if they were solo. And if their parents committed a crime. But Trump is now prosecuting the act of border crossing as a crime and therefor is creating a bigger problem. did I get that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: That makes sense. it was ok to detain kids like this if they were solo. And if their parents committed a crime. But Trump is now prosecuting the act of border crossing as a crime and therefor is creating a bigger problem. did I get that right? The "zero tolerance" policy enacted by Trump/Sessions/Nielson prosecutes anybody illegally entering the country, even when seeking asylum. This policy by necessity separates children from the parents and leaves BPA's and immigration judges zero discretion for catch and release. What makes it gross beyond the pale is that the separation consequence is one of the reasons for its enactment, as a deterrent to immigration in general. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 shouldn't that last line have a illegal in it? after all the law making illegal entry illegal in the first place was meant as a deterrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, twa said: shouldn't that last line have a illegal in it? after all the law making illegal entry illegal in the first place was meant as a deterrent. No, not if they are seeking asylum. Seeking asylum is not illegal. More, the courts have ruled that you can't use policies like these as deterrents. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, Burgold said: No, not if they are seeking asylum. Seeking asylum is not illegal. More, the courts have ruled that you can't use policies like these as deterrents. so if I'm seeking asylum I can commit which crimes exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Zguy28 said: This is exactly what I am seeing too. However, its on Facebook, only about 3 folks (out of hundreds of my friends) and those same three are the only one's who Like it or comment. I'm seeing these comments from friends I've known since high school and even junior high. Grew up in Beckley, WV and they love Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 49 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: So it was happening under Obama? Is it possible that at least one family was separated during the Obama administration? I'd be amazed if it didn't happen somewhere, at least once. Did the Trump administration intentionally create a new policy of separating almost all families, for the specific, planned purpose that their barbaric policy would scare them people into staying away from us? Yes. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, twa said: so if I'm seeking asylum I can commit which crimes exactly? Grant of asylum will retroactively nullify illegal crossing. Argument can be made that until the approval, your illegal crossing is still illegal. That's why I would prefer that all asylum application be presented at least at border checkpoint, not after the fact after getting caught. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) Seeing evidence of this in a few posters here. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/06/19/politics/donald-trump-immigration-border-separations/index.html Why Trump is digging in on separating families at the border Quote A climbdown on this issue would represent more than a huge embarrassment for the President. It would undermine his political image and philosophy and require him to admit he's wrong and to temper instincts that force him to counterattack. He would risk alienating base voters who prize his strongman image on one issue above all -- immigration -- and are more inclined to believe that people who cross the border illegally get what they deserve than to react with compassion to reports by media outlets they disdain Sigh. 10 minutes ago, bearrock said: Grant of asylum will retroactively nullify illegal crossing. Argument can be made that until the approval, your illegal crossing is still illegal. That's why I would prefer that all asylum application be presented at least at border checkpoint, not after the fact after getting caught. I thought asylum seekers were being turned away at legal ports of entry without being actually seen/heard? That said..in a perfect world in which these people weren't starving for food/water/clothing/protection then yeah - certain ports of entry make sense. But if someone is seeking asylum, should it really matter? Edited June 19, 2018 by The Evil Genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh8686 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) I don't understand how some people are cool with kids being kept in cages because their parents may have committed a misdemeanor or were seeking asylum. How are you cool with just automatically saying, "well they deserved it" or "they should have stayed where they were" (completely dismissing the fact that they were most likely fleeing such a place because their life was in danger). This administration is caging children to "send a message". And you're cool with that? Are you not smart enough, willful enough to think of a better way to do things than this? I've experienced first-hand how people feel they have license to treat you like utter ****, like less than an animal, because you broke the law. You see some of the worst atrocities committed by people when they feel like they have government approval to do so. These kids are getting that treatment right now. As we sit on our computers in our air-conditioned rooms, going from thread to thread, there are children sitting in cages who are feeling constant stress and fear, who are being traumatized, who are being inflicted with wounds that will last the rest of their life and be a millstone around their necks. Do you know what it's like to sleep on cold concrete with a little mat and a blanket while officers watch you on the other side of your cage? I do. I know how cruel they can be, the abuse they get away with. And again these are ****ing kids having to deal with this, whose only "crime" is a misdemeanor. I wish for just one day I could make these ****ers feel just a fraction of what these kids are going through. If you want to throw away kids to the rules of the jungle, than you better be prepared to handle that action yourself. There is a protest against this **** on June 30th, I know damn well I'll be there.But whoever shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. ~ Matthew 18:6 Edited June 19, 2018 by Fresh8686 4 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 41 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: I thought asylum seekers were being turned away at legal ports of entry without being actually seen/heard? Here you go. https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/blog/trump-administration-putting-no-vacancy-sign Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristarchus Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Fresh8686: Boom! I could not agree more. You are completely correct. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 People should be outraged that Trump has manipulated the laws to create this outrage. But I see a lot of people claiming to be outraged about kids being detained. Which in turn allows Trumpsters to claim that Dems did it too (which did happen) and there weren’t cries of protest about it. It plays right into his hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: People should be outraged that Trump has manipulated the laws to create this outrage. But I see a lot of people claiming to be outraged about kids being detained. Which in turn allows Trumpsters to claim that Dems did it too (which did happen) and there weren’t cries of protest about it. It plays right into his hands And America's soul dies just a little more each day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh8686 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Kilmer17 said: People should be outraged that Trump has manipulated the laws to create this outrage. But I see a lot of people claiming to be outraged about kids being detained. Which in turn allows Trumpsters to claim that Dems did it too (which did happen) and there weren’t cries of protest about it. It plays right into his hands It only plays into his hands if a person does not have the will or mental faculty to see the distinct differences between the two situations. It’s not hard to kick away bull**** whataboutisms or false equivalency. And what the hell do you mean by claim? I’m ****ing furious about this ****. Do you actually believe we’re playing games with our anger about this? And how does our anger “in turn” allow trump to blame the dems? He’s doing that all by himself. The only thing that allows him to make that claim is the passivity of people who don’t challenge it for the lie it is. Trump’s hands are too small to hold this. This is going to backfire on him, especially when it comes to suburban women and the midterms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 18 minutes ago, Zguy28 said: Here you go. https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/blog/trump-administration-putting-no-vacancy-sign they might have to wait weeks despite the govt increasing the judges there(and trying to hurry the judges with quotas) and opening more facilities.....which means they should just cross illegally w/o consequence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 If Obama was doing the exact same thing that Trump is, the right wing would've never let up on it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 34 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said: I don't understand how some people are cool with kids being kept in cages because their parents may have committed a misdemeanor or were seeking asylum. How are you cool with just automatically saying, "well they deserved it" or "they should have stayed where they were" (completely dismissing the fact that they were most likely fleeing such a place because their life was in danger). Are you cool with the fact they would be kept in 'cages' even if they arrived w/o parents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 19 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: People should be outraged that Trump has manipulated the laws to create this outrage. But I see a lot of people claiming to be outraged about kids being detained. Which in turn allows Trumpsters to claim that Dems did it too (which did happen) and there weren’t cries of protest about it. It plays right into his hands Only if they're playing games. Republicans should be outraged and appalled for the kids. They should find this unacceptable. Period. They should stand up against wrongs. Periods. When there are real wrongs being done they should not play games and hunt for excuses. They should stand up. The sportsification of this country sucks. Not everything is Dems vs. Republicans. Some of it is right versus wrong and good versus evil. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, twa said: so if I'm seeking asylum I can commit which crimes exactly? Well, since you're a Republican, you can create a phony charity...say, the TWAmp Foundation, and use it as a slush fund to pay membership fees, buy bad portraits of yourself, bribe...er... I mean make illegal campaign contributions to anyone with a legal case pending against you. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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