Cousins Is The Man

[MattFancy]

As for Matt, I'm not buying what he's trying to sell.  He was being sneaky in trying to imply that Stafford, Wilson, Tannehill, Luck, Newton, Winston, Mariota, Bortles, Carr, Manziel, Griffin, and Bridgewater are all better than Kirk.  Throwing out Newton and Wilson I don't think any of those other guys are better for Jay Gruden's offense with the current personnel on the Washington Redskins. 

 

And that is my point to you too Battered Fan Syndrome.  Implying that I'm a homer because you didn't understand my point is out of bounds.  Based on Gruden's offense which one of those QB's Matt listed (not named Wilson or Newton) would you rather have playing QB right now going into a pivotal game vs Philly this weekend and heading into next year?

 

Ah, I think I've figured out the problem here. You're not very good at reading comprehension. I never said those guys were all BETTER than Cousins. I said they were all YOUNGER. But, twist what I say to fit your narrative!

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

As for Matt, I'm not buying what he's trying to sell.  He was being sneaky in trying to imply that Stafford, Wilson, Tannehill, Luck, Newton, Winston, Mariota, Bortles, Carr, Manziel, Griffin, and Bridgewater are all better than Kirk.  Throwing out Newton and Wilson I don't think any of those other guys are better for Jay Gruden's offense with the current personnel on the Washington Redskins. 

 

And that is my point to you too Battered Fan Syndrome.  Implying that I'm a homer because you didn't understand my point is out of bounds.  Based on Gruden's offense which one of those QB's Matt listed (not named Wilson or Newton) would you rather have playing QB right now going into a pivotal game vs Philly this weekend and heading into next year?

 

I'm out of bounds yet you're indicting Matt with "being sneaky in trying to imply..."  He already listed who he thought was currently better than Kirk and quite a few of those guys aren't on there. 

[dballer]

I will say to those who are considering the fact that this may be a one hit wonder with Cousins...

 

Many of the other one hit wonder QBs that I can think of right now did so in a somewhat gimmicky way. Some were runners, some came into the perfect situation, some were journeyman QBs that had enough chances that they were able to put it together for one season, etc.

 

What gives me a good feeling about Cousins is that he is successful right now on the backbone of understanding how to run the offense, and making the right reads and throws. He has plenty of physical talent to get the job done. Now it seems he really has a grasp of how to be a QB, especially in this offense. And he is doing it without a running game. 

Ah, I think I've figured out the problem here. You're not very good at reading comprehension. I never said those guys were all BETTER than Cousins. I said they were all YOUNGER. But, twist what I say to fit your narrative!

 

But you did name those QBs in a post where you asked if Cousins has the most upside...hard to separate what you implied and what you meant. 

[MattFancy]

But you did name those QBs in a post where you asked if Cousins has the most upside...hard to separate what you implied and what you meant. 

 

Seriously? You think Cousins has the most upside of any young QB in the league?

 

Kirk isn't "young". He's 27. Same age as Stafford, Wilson, and Tannehill. Older than Luck, Newton, Winston, Mariota, Bortles, Carr, Manziel, Griffin, and Bridgewater.

 

Where did I say in there that all of those QBs were better than Kirk? Yes, I do think Luck and Newton are better than Cousins. Yes, I do believe that Bortles and Carr have been playing as well if not a little better than Cousins this year and they have a bit higher of an upside. None of that means I don't think Kirk is any good or could be any good.

 

For someone to say Kirk has "more upside than any young QB in the league", that's a bit out there, considering he's not "young" in terms of all the other current QBs in the league.

[tshile]

hey you guys you know on saturday cousins takes the field to try to win a division championship? him and 45 other guys are going to try to destroy the eagles on national TV and make eagles fans call their radio stations on monday and cry about it.

 

WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?!

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

I just don't believe there's going to be a magical moment when everyone has no doubts that this is the guy you build around. You have to trust your football guys to recognize the trend and developement of the player. You also have to trust that they will make the right choice. But, nothing is guaranteed - he could flame out right after getting paid or he could win 2 championships. That's part of the fun. 

 

IMO this is the operative point in the off season.  Media indications are Scot wants to lock him in and he likely will get a contract give and take in the Tannehill range -- and if so, Scot's no dummy, I'd trust it.  If not and he thinks Kirk is too pricey or whatever and moves on, then I am OK with it. 

 

As for Scot as posters have pointed out he has not had a perfect record picking Qbs but I wonder who does?  Maybe the Colts who drafted Peyton and Luck and had them fall into their lap might fit that category but making those picks clearly weren't that tough.   Shanny who supposedly was a QB guru has more misses then hits.  But I do think once you have the guy in the locker room and have a sample size, should be much easier to judge.

 

As for Kirk, in my layman's opinion he's shown enough that I think he's an above average QB.  But I think will see the proof in the pudding as for what Scot thinks soon enough.  I am guessing the more interesting question in the off season won't center on Kirk but whether they keep his weapons just the way they are or move on -- chemistry versus cap, etc. 

[MartinC]

WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?!

Excellent question.

Let's stop this back and forth before it gets personal and someone crosses a line (which is a highly subjective line not unlike the answer to the question "what's a franchise QB') and ends up banned on the weekend we play our biggest game for years.

[DJHJR86]

A Colin Cowherd article was making the rounds on social media.  Basically 2 days ago he was gushing over how Cousins is absolutely the right fit for the Skins, "loves the process", gets it, etc. and then yesterday said he didn't understand why Skins fans were suddenly gushing over Cousins because he has a low ceiling.  Now I'm glad I've never listened or watched anything involving Cowherd.

[SkinsFTW]

Cowherd, seen him like once, maybe twice, instantly realized that he was just another idiot who loves the sound of his own voice. Then one thing he said was about how he didn't start following football until he was in college or something. But idiots like this guy are somehow deemed "experts" because they get to spout off 24/7 on the radio/tv. LOL

[Jumbo]

First, yes, I still like you Matt, and  usually find some-to-full agreement in many of your more level-headed football views/points (just fwiw, and while this focuses on your posting, it applies more broadly, just to be very clear). 

 

You caught me, I've been a member on this site for 10 years, but secretly hate the Redskins. Gig is up!

 

I think he's doing more the thing of suggesting you're more invested in your attachment to a player and the resulting "pain" of deep disappointment (I think most of us can identity with that) and still festering resentment and it still strongly influences your posting.

 

I mean you seem to be one of those that basically had to excuse yourself from the stadium (at least you didn't just split ES, you went to the tailgate where all our souls are lost) even as the team actually plays exciting and meaningful games---presumably because you couldn't "find a way" to post the kind of stuff you usually like to do these last three years without it being "a problem." Ponder that.

 

Whatever the case, all this has been pointed out to you repeatedly, in detail, nicely and firmly, by different mods a number of times. Now with this current spate of posts doing the same ole (even while making some decent points), it would usually be a ban or be put on mod queue for awhile given your long tenure and otherwise-loved (by me at least) status. We regularly give tons of rope in many such matters and then there's an end to it.

 

Your very late-in-the-game and marginal mea culpas mean less than they might, given your continuance of this ongoing new role as the "let's simmer down on the happy and be chill and grounded" guy.

 

But that seems a popular "shtick" for some of the well known "rg3 guys" here. And as we've noted before, there's some rg3 guys who just took their marbles and left when they couldn't just spam the board forever with their mood issues and continue to act out their rg3 angst--let alone actually having to "suffer" through Kirk and Jay (also so hated by the same folks) actually doing as well as they are. I see no reason not to say it like it is, even if that ruffles some feathers.

 

 

 

Hell, I posted a few weeks back that I was coming in here to put my crow in the oven. I 100% admit I didn't see this type of season coming from Kirk. He's played well beyond my expectations of him and deserves to be here next year. I'm just not ready to jump all-in on him yet like some others have. And that's fine to believe he can be the "franchise". Myself, I just don't see that yet. He's having a really good year, but lots of other QBs have had really good years (i.e. Griffin). Let's see him do it more than once before we crown him, that's all.

 

Some people still misrepresent their behavior here--it's how you keep appearing primarily just to chide/argue/restrain others when for so long you did the same "booster fan" stuff for "your guy" and to a higher degree and of much longer duration.

 

You don't get to be "all in" on that for years here, many, many, times a week, and then come in now and argue for restraint and reason and caution to people (and you do go even beyond that at times, still) who have been or are getting enthused about Kirk and the apparent progress of the team as your shtick now.

 

It's never about suppressing any football POV. It's always about posting behaviors that violate rules and guidelines--usually those that excessively and gratuitously dumb-down and/or add too much of the stupid forms of conflict and "arguing" to the topic, and/or run counter to the forum's best interests, that we moderate.

 

Excellent question.

Let's stop this back and forth before it gets personal and someone crosses a line (which is a highly subjective line not unlike the answer to the question "what's a franchise QB') and ends up banned on the weekend we play our biggest game for years.

 

Excellent suggestion.

[MattFancy]

See, this is why ES has lost some good posters over the years. You don't agree with the masses or appear to be semi critical of the team, and you get blasted for it.

 

Yes, I did stop posting in The Stadium for awhile after the RG3/Cousins situation came to a head. Why? Because what is the point of rehashing the same argument over and over? Everyone here knew how I felt about both QBs and the RG3 thread had become a total disaster.

 

Now, I post about how Cousins have proven me wrong and he's played well, but I still am not ready to go all-in on him, and I'm being criticized for that. I'm sorry I'm not all rah rah on the guy, like others. I didn't know I wasn't allowed to have a different view point about Cousins.

 

I hope there's similar criticism of those who don't think we should bring back Garcon and DJax, How could they ever be true Redskin fans is they don't want our own players to succeed here?

 

It's ridiculous that we can't share different view points around here.

[petedaddy]

See, this is why ES has lost some good posters over the years. You don't agree with the masses or appear to be semi critical of the team, and you get blasted for it.

 

Yes, I did stop posting in The Stadium for awhile after the RG3/Cousins situation came to a head. Why? Because what is the point of rehashing the same argument over and over? Everyone here knew how I felt about both QBs and the RG3 thread had become a total disaster.

 

Now, I post about how Cousins have proven me wrong and he's played well, but I still am not ready to go all-in on him, and I'm being criticized for that. I'm sorry I'm not all rah rah on the guy, like others. I didn't know I wasn't allowed to have a different view point about Cousins.

 

I hope there's similar criticism of those who don't think we should bring back Garcon and DJax, How could they ever be true Redskin fans is they don't want our own players to succeed here?

 

It's ridiculous that we can't share different view points around here.

 

doesn't sound like that was what jumbo was saying at all, it seemed that he was alluding to that you were supporting RG3, and chiding those who didn't, and now you are taking the complete opposite position and chiding people for supporting Kirk

 

i don't know your posting history, but i didn't get where Jumbo was saying anything about your opinion

 

i will say that it does appear that you are more of a RG3 fanboy (which is fine) and you are having trouble coming all the way around on kirk (which is also fine)

 

you want to find anything that will possibly denigrate kirk and that is what i don't understand, while begrudgingly admitting he's playing well

[MattFancy]

I've made no qualms about me believing in RG3 more coming into the season than I did in Kirk. And I'm far and away the only person on here or in the football world who felt that way.

 

Yes, I'm coming around on Kirk. He's played extremely well this year, much better than I or most could have imagined. He deserves to be here next year and to be paid well for his play. I still am unsure on whether he is the long-term answer here, but he certainly deserves another  year to work in the system.

 

I don't believe he is a current top 10 QB and I don't think he has the highest upside of all the young QBs in the league. If that makes me a bad person, than so be it. I'm done posting in this thread before it gets turned into a thread about me. Happy Holidays everyone!

[petedaddy]

I've made no qualms about me believing in RG3 more coming into the season than I did in Kirk. And I'm far and away the only person on here or in the football world who felt that way.

 

Yes, I'm coming around on Kirk. He's played extremely well this year, much better than I or most could have imagined. He deserves to be here next year and to be paid well for his play. I still am unsure on whether he is the long-term answer here, but he certainly deserves another  year to work in the system.

 

I don't believe he is a current top 10 QB and I don't think he has the highest upside of all the young QBs in the league. If that makes me a bad person, than so be it. I'm done posting in this thread before it gets turned into a thread about me. Happy Holidays everyone!

 

i have no problem with you posting in here, it's upped the activity in the cousins thread threefold, and even brought out the best in Jumbo

[TheCoach22]

Luck has some amazing 'moments'?

Which one of the 101 TD passes he has in 3 and half seasons (40 in 2014 alone) do you consider to be those moments so far?

Here is what I think... He has multiple games with three or four TDs that were all necessary because of first halfs where he threw three INTs. He is very reckless with the ball early in games and the team is then gunslinging for four quarters out of necessity.

Guys like Cousins or Wilson, by design, take fewer chances and have more even performances. Luck is an amazing talent, but he also doesn't look like a brilliant Stanford grad who came out of the womb reading defenses either. My opinion, but that is what I see... I don't see a men amongst boys.

[DJHJR86]

Here's an excerpt from a recent Keim article, regarding Kirk (and the decision to play him):

 

"Indeed, though one player said "we all understood the decision," some had gone to coaches to express their thoughts and concerns before the late-August switch. Fans might have been divided; players weren't. Another said for some if there was any possible debate about who should start, it was between Cousins and Colt McCoy. "

 

Sounds to me like Gruden would've lost the locker room had he not made the decision to play Kirk.  And that is huge.  You can tell this team has rallied around Kirk and is actually out there playing for Gruden.  That division title game can't come soon enough.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Here is what I think... He has multiple games with three or four TDs that were all necessary because of first halfs where he threw three INTs. He is very reckless with the ball early in games and the team is then gunslinging for four quarters out of necessity.

Guys like Cousins or Wilson, by design, take fewer chances and have more even performances. Luck is an amazing talent, but he also doesn't look like a brilliant Stanford grad who came out of the womb reading defenses either. My opinion, but that is what I see... I don't see a men amongst boys.

While I still love Luck, he's overrated to the moon.

He's nowhere near top 5 IMO

[petedaddy]

Here is what I think... He has multiple games with three or four TDs that were all necessary because of first halfs where he threw three INTs. He is very reckless with the ball early in games and the team is then gunslinging for four quarters out of necessity.

Guys like Cousins or Wilson, by design, take fewer chances and have more even performances. Luck is an amazing talent, but he also doesn't look like a brilliant Stanford grad who came out of the womb reading defenses either. My opinion, but that is what I see... I don't see a men amongst boys.

 

 

While I still love Luck, he's overrated to the moon.

He's nowhere near top 5 IMO

 

definitely agree luck is overrated, the question would be then if you're starting a franchise, what QB under 30 do you start it with

[Wildbunny]

You do know that Brady is 37 right?  Imagine Kirk, Gruden, and Scot McCloughan together for another 10 years.  Hell yeah I'd keep Kirk Cousins over anybody you listed!!!  He has the most upside for the WASHINGTON REDSKINS.  You would feel that way too if you weren't so hell bent on denying the fact that you were wrong about him.  Seems like being right is more important to you than being a Redskin's fan. 

 

AS much as I like Kirk Cousins, I have to admit that Carr and Bortles may have more upside along their career than Kirk.Sure Tom is 37, Peyton is 38, Romo as  well, Eli is 35 or 36... Rodgers is 32, Big Ben, Carson Palmer, all of them are closing to retirement.

If I do consider the youngers guys, to redo you example, can you imagine Jay, Scott and Blake Bortles or David Carr working for 14/15 years? That could top Cousins career in the end. Both are young QB on young teams that are starting to climbing up from the basement and should be powerhouse in the next few years if they remain on track. Just like Cousins' Redskins. Will he play until 37 like Brady? Nobody knows, Brady's been extremly reliable and healthy throughout his career except for one season. Kirk seems to be tough to go down as well, he had one minor in 2013 IIRC, but since he's been the backup mostly, the sample is relatively small to judge if he can endure a long career.

 

 

after listening to the start of Cooley's breakdown, i've come up with my 'next step' for Cousins.

 

I actually think this is the difference between receiving an A and an A+ from Cooley, though I don't believe he's said as much? So I'm guessing.

 

He still leaves the bigger play on the field. I don't know the offense, obviously, so again I'm entirely guessing here. I also don't know how often the home viewers get to see this... it's my main complaint about watching on TV vs in person, you only get to see what they show you. If the TV crews are not doing you any favors, I can tell you that there are numerous plays through the course of these games where Cousins has someone open down field. I mean wide open. And it's usually Reed, Garcon, or Jackson. And he doesn't go to them with the ball.

 

I have no reason to not give Cousins the benefit of the doubt, so I assume this is because he's going through his progressions and hitting the first open guy. So, for example from Sunday, the 6 yard route to Jones out of the backfield is open and he's (say) read #2, and Garcon is wide open 18 yards down field but he's read #3 or #4 so the ball goes to Jones.

 

The obvious issue is that if you're going to skip the #2 read when he's open and go to #3 or #4, you better be right... because when you're not the coach is going to rip you a new one. Especially if you're really wrong and it turns into a turn over, or it's a critical 3rd down play, etc. So I have no idea when we should expect that from Cousins. Part of me thinks he's currently playing with house money, so why not sack up and see what happens? The other part thinks this isn't the time for that, wait until next year; new long term contract, should have even better talent around you (go go GMSM). and a clean slate to start working with instead of a division winning game. Also an entire off-season of first team reps and, presumably, a more mature offense/playbook.

 

I'm currently very happy with Cousins. So this isn't a moving of the goal posts, at least not how I view it. It's a realization that the ceiling might be much higher than I ever thought with him, and this is the next level to look for...

 

I'm gonna get angry about guys saying QB leaving plays on the field. Some points regarding it:

1 - When a fan sees a receiver that is open, he's open while the ball he's still in the QB's hand. The real question is: will he be open when the ball will reach to him?

2 - Watching the field on TV from above is completly different than watching it from the field as a QB.Your view isn't blocked by big Linemen that tall 6'5 or so, that weighed 300 pounds and that moves everywhere to either block the guy coming, or trying to disrupt the block to get to the QB. On TV, from above, that's quite easy to see the open field, on the field. That's a complete different matter. And until the NFL starts to equip QBs with GoPro like videocameras, we'll never know how it looked like. Sure, those that played QB at some level in their life can have a feeling of this. Well, I remember mine complaining of me blocking views.

3a - As you guessed it, there's the play also. Should the QB go for the greatest gain no matter what the play call is or should he remain within the play itself.

3b - Plays are designed to get guys open, and they're supposed to run specific routes. Sometimes guys are open because they followed the wrong route or missed an assignement. Usually a WR that didn't block the blitzing corner is usually wide open for 2/3 seconds.

3c - Is the receiver looking for the ball. Throwing to open guys that are not watching is a recipe for doom.

[petedaddy]

Here's an excerpt from a recent Keim article, regarding Kirk (and the decision to play him):

 

"Indeed, though one player said "we all understood the decision," some had gone to coaches to express their thoughts and concerns before the late-August switch. Fans might have been divided; players weren't. Another said for some if there was any possible debate about who should start, it was between Cousins and Colt McCoy. "

 

Sounds to me like Gruden would've lost the locker room had he not made the decision to play Kirk.  And that is huge.  You can tell this team has rallied around Kirk and is actually out there playing for Gruden.  That division title game can't come soon enough.

 

100% this, i would love to know the inner workings of all this, and i would also love to know how long jay (other players) wanted to start kirk

AS much as I like Kirk Cousins, I have to admit that Carr and Bortles may have more upside along their career than Kirk.Sure Tom is 37, Peyton is 38, romoSUCKS as  well, Eli is 35 or 36... Rodgers is 32, Big Ben, Carson Palmer, all of them are closing to retirement.

If I do consider the youngers guys, to redo you example, can you imagine Jay, Scott and Blake Bortles or David Carr working for 14/15 years? That could top Cousins career in the end. Both are young QB on young teams that are starting to climbing up from the basement and should be powerhouse in the next few years if they remain on track. Just like Cousins' Redskins. Will he play until 37 like Brady? Nobody knows, Brady's been extremly reliable and healthy throughout his career except for one season. Kirk seems to be tough to go down as well, he had one minor in 2013 IIRC, but since he's been the backup mostly, the sample is relatively small to judge if he can endure a long career.

 

 

i still don't see where derek carr or blake bortles have more upside potential than kirk, but i can understand the sentiment, i think they will be good QB's though

[Jumbo]

See, this is why ES has lost some good posters over the years. You don't agree with the masses or appear to be semi critical of the team, and you get blasted for it.

 

Yes, I did stop posting in The Stadium for awhile after the RG3/Cousins situation came to a head. Why? Because what is the point of rehashing the same argument over and over? Everyone here knew how I felt about both QBs and the RG3 thread had become a total disaster.

 

Now, I post about how Cousins have proven me wrong and he's played well, but I still am not ready to go all-in on him, and I'm being criticized for that. I'm sorry I'm not all rah rah on the guy, like others. I didn't know I wasn't allowed to have a different view point about Cousins.

 

I hope there's similar criticism of those who don't think we should bring back Garcon and DJax, How could they ever be true Redskin fans is they don't want our own players to succeed here?

 

It's ridiculous that we can't share different view points around here.

 

 

Here you've degenerated to this post that's pretty much full of bull****. And it does bring to light some more pretty unfortunate thinking, but I don't have the heart to dissect it like it begs from an argument standpoint. Your next post after it is better.

 

And imma leave you alone, and I do wish you a very Merry Christmas amigo. Remember in the end, this is not life and death, and we're not suffering through an actual zombie apocalypse even if it reads like that on ES sometimes.

[Bang]

See, this is why ES has lost some good posters over the years. You don't agree with the masses or appear to be semi critical of the team, and you get blasted for it.

 

Yes, I did stop posting in The Stadium for awhile after the RG3/Cousins situation came to a head. Why? Because what is the point of rehashing the same argument over and over? Everyone here knew how I felt about both QBs and the RG3 thread had become a total disaster.

 

Now, I post about how Cousins have proven me wrong and he's played well, but I still am not ready to go all-in on him, and I'm being criticized for that. I'm sorry I'm not all rah rah on the guy, like others. I didn't know I wasn't allowed to have a different view point about Cousins.

 

I hope there's similar criticism of those who don't think we should bring back Garcon and DJax, How could they ever be true Redskin fans is they don't want our own players to succeed here?

 

It's ridiculous that we can't share different view points around here.

 

So this offseason it's time to go all in or let him walk. This particular wall is up on our backs.

It's highly doubtful we'll get off on the cheap with a heavy incentive laden deal, and he has played well, and even more encouraging, he's getting better as the season winds on.

for the sake of argument, "all in" means a modest deal that sets him up in Washington for at least 3-5 seasons.

 

So this begs a few questions...  

1. if you were in charge and you're not ready to go all in, what will you do?  Let him go, or take the chance? You're at a point where a decision must be made. Which way do you lean?

 

2. If you let him go, what's the plan? Draft a new guy, or hit the market? What do you feel would be our better option? 

(Understand, i am not asking one of those "if you don't have an immediate definitive answer, you're an idiot" questions,, just curious what you feel would be the next best step.)

 

and 3. if you want, if you keep him and pay him, what do you draft or acquire to help him be a QB you can be behind 100%?

 

A new QB is a crap shoot, we know this, but it becomes less of a crap shoot when you see what your guy can do, and what we're seeing is pretty good, no?

 

Alex Smith is another one of those "low ceiling" guys who never lived up to expectations, and now he's won 8 in a row and is getting ready to put the Chiefs in the playoffs, averaging about 30 points a game over this stretch. He's way over his ceiling, and he's winning. Convincingly.

So were those who established his ceiling and called him a bust right?

Ceilings and pundit opinions of them are junk.

 

~Bang

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Who wants pizza?!

[Wildbunny]

100% this, i would love to know the inner workings of all this, and i would also love to know how long jay (other players) wanted to start kirk

 

i still don't see where derek carr or blake bortles have more upside potential than kirk, but i can understand the sentiment, i think they will be good QB's though

 

They can play for 15 years for good/great franchise, while Kirk still have 10 left?

Both the Raiders are Jaguars are rising nicely, and both their QB are playing great, Kirk only have one real season under his belt.

Don't get me wrong, I'm loving what Kirk is doing and I'm glad were we are right now. But those two guys are making me awe...

Who wants pizza?!

 

I'm in, add pop corn as well please!

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Who wants pizza?!

What kind ?