Next Day Thread: Eagles Make Us Sad

[kingdaddy]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

The bigger problem I agree with you on is we don't see the defense doing enough premotion to illicit some level of confusion on the defense.  I hated Haslett, but he was at his best when it seemed everyone on defense was constantly moving around pre-snap to at least make the offense second guess what was happening.

 

Buffalo does this very well and I think it had Sam very confused. 

[justice98]

14 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I would say that Fuller was the best defensive player yesterday, because he took Smith almost completely out of the game and he's their better receiver. They wouldn't even throw at him, which is really impressive.

 

I dont know about all that.  Brown is their best receiver. And Smith not being a factor had as much to do with their best receiver (Brown) getting shadowed by a rookie.  And it was clear the rookie wasn't up to the task.  You're just gonna take advantage of that until the defense adjusts.  And JDR never did.  If the defense isn't going to adjust, there's no reason to stop the pitch and catch you had going on.  

[zCommander]

 

36 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Thanks, I didn't know that. I would have said summarization, which I guess is different. 

 

sum·ma·tion

/səˈmāSH(ə)n/

noun

noun: summation

1. 1.

   the process of adding things together.

   "the summation of numbers of small pieces of evidence"

   • a sum total of things added together.

     plural noun: summations

     "their value is no mere summation of the values of their component parts"
2. 2.

   the process of summing something up.

   "these will need summation in a single document"

   • a summary.

     "two summations of his work were published"
   • LAW

     an attorney's closing speech at the conclusion of the giving of evidence.

[Koolblue13]

Just now, zCommander said:

 

 

sum·ma·tion

/səˈmāSH(ə)n/

noun

noun: summation

1. 1.

   the process of adding things together.

   "the summation of numbers of small pieces of evidence"

   • a sum total of things added together.

     plural noun: summations

     "their value is no mere summation of the values of their component parts"
2. 2.

   the process of summing something up.

   "these will need summation in a single document"

   • a summary.

     "two summations of his work were published"
   • LAW

     an attorney's closing speech at the conclusion of the giving of evidence.

Thank you for adding that to the post when I thanked someone for explaining it already.

[justice98]

58 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

RH 3FERS

 

 

Bad

• JDRs scheme - refuses to blitz yet can't find a way to give Forbes help on a league top 5 WR

 

Mehgly

• If Forbes isn't generating turnovers he may be a liability at times. I do like he got a tough assignment to test his meddle but JDR ****ed him over by refusing to pressure Jalen. If Forbes is following no help over the top that should free up a blitzer for JDR to deploy. Pressure the QB go man-n-jam or rush 4 and play JDRs shell but then give Forbes help. 

 

I'm all for giving Forbes the shot and thinking he can handle it.  What I'm not cool with is staying with it in spite of the overwhelming evidence that it wasnt his day.  What's doubly frustrating is they had 2 viable options to turn to just refused to use them on Brown.  

[zCommander]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Thank you for adding that to the post when I thanked someone for explaining it already.

 

Look I had to do something while my coffee was getting ready lol

[samy316]

39 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

You trade them at the trade deadline, when their value is the highest and you only do it for draft picks.

 

But it's a lame duck coaching year, so that won't happen, because we aren't in a "build for the future" mode, even if Ron thinks he deserves a ring when we're eventually good.

Lucky for us, we’ve got a stretch of games coming up, where the offenses for the Bears, Falcons & Giants are mediocre to bad.  Young and Sweat will probably feast on those teams, and get their stats up to show that both are having good seasons, when we all know better.  

I think the trade deadline is at the end of October.  If this FO was smart, they would be trading both Young and Sweat, after they feast on inferior competition, so that they can acquire some quality OL help or draft capital.  But, this is a Ron Rivera led FO, so foresight and forward thinking is clearly beyond his comprehension.  We’ll probably stand pat at the trade deadline, and lose both for nothing.  It’s what Ron does best, let quality players walk out the door with nothing in return.

Edited October 2, 2023 by samy316

[MartinC]

36 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I would say that Fuller was the best defensive player yesterday, because he took Smith almost completely out of the game and he's their better receiver. They wouldn't even throw at him, which is really impressive.

They didn’t need to throw to Smith - they had a much better match up with Forbes against Brown. Inexplicably we did nothing to try to take that away.

9 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

I'm all for giving Forbes the shot and thinking he can handle it.  What I'm not cool with is staying with it in spite of the overwhelming evidence that it wasnt his day.  What's doubly frustrating is they had 2 viable options to turn to just refused to use them on Brown.  

To be fair the Eagles could use motion or formation pre snap to dictate the match up. But that doesn’t excuse us not doing things post snap to get help to Forbes in that matchup.

[RandyHolt]

It like JDR has some me is macho complex by using NO deception at all. Its like personal to him. It's Jack vs the OC 1 on 1 beat me fair and square. Jack is standing there ready for an old fashioned fist fight acting like a tough guy while the OC is younger and faster and has been studying UFC moves. Mano y mano - jack loses again. If Jack with half the defense first rounders cannot contain offenses to reasonable expectations by calling games like its 1975 he simply has to go.

 

It took him HALF a season last year for him to adjust but it was too little too late. I wanted him fired before the beginning of last season. If he is having ANY say in personnel (Will Jackson Jamin Martin maybe even Forbes) it reinforces he needs to go. Folks that panic about a new DC forcing players to learn a new system mid season - stop.  Every defense is largely similar in terms of scheme options its when to deploy them. EDIT I am not sure how much other teams use zone match but it can go away IMO. Defense is easy as long as the DC doesn't confuse his own players and players are used to their strengths. Philly's receivers were wide open compared to ours. You know the players hate the scheme.

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by RandyHolt

[justice98]

3 minutes ago, samy316 said:

Lucky for us, we’ve got a stretch of games coming up, where the offenses for the Bears, Falcons & Giants are mediocre to bad.  Young and Sweat will probably feast on those teams, and get their stats up to show that both are having good seasons, when we all know better.  

I think the trade deadline is at the end of October.  If this FO was smart, they would be trading both Young and Sweat, after they feast on inferior competition, so that they can acquire some quality OL help or draft capital.  But, this is a Ron Rivera led FO, so foresight and forward thinking is clearly beyond his comprehension.  We’ll probably stand pat at the trade deadline, and lose both for nothing.  It’s what Ron does best, let quality players walk out the door with nothing in return.

 

I think this is why you can't have coaches/front offices in this state. Ron (and his entire player personnel apparatus) doesn't have the luxury of worrying about next year's draft capital. He's got to win every game he can.  2023 is all hands on deck.  

[MartinC]

2 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I am not sure how much other teams use zone match but it can go away IMO

 

 

Pretty much everyone uses some kind of zone or pattern match. There is some pure zone still but it’s relatively rare at NFL level that defenders just drop to a spot - NFL QBs and receivers will just eat that up. The coverage schemes are not the issue IMO, its more the lack of creativity and disguise and being so vanilla in our pressure packages.

[kingdaddy]

8 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Folks that panic about a new DC forcing players to learn a new system mid season - stop.

Agreed, just bring in someone who's more aggressive and open-minded to trying different things. Opponents must watch film of us, figure out how to attack us and then we show up on game day and do exactly what they thought we would do. We are wasting the best years of Allen and Payne's careers by playing this vanilla style defense. Please make a change.

[Thinking Skins]

 

 

[Riggo#44]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Is that a real word? I honestly don't know.

 

[MartinC]

7 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 

 

That was a nice route by Dotson on the (literally) last second TD. He had a rough day overall but he separated on that route with a subtle use of his body. Nice route, nice throw!

[RandyHolt]

3 hours ago, MartinC said:

 

Pretty much everyone uses some kind of zone or pattern match. There is some pure zone still but it’s relatively rare at NFL level that defenders just drop to a spot - NFL QBs and receivers will just eat that up. The coverage schemes are not the issue IMO, its more the lack of creativity and disguise and being so vanilla in our pressure packages.

Thanks as that confirms my main point. Life could go on yes mid season with a new perspective running our defense.  We pick up off the street DBs near the end of seasons and they never look out of place. Ron can coach the D if no one else. Promote the DL coach. How about Kerrigan or Rodgers, or Sapp.

 

Why do we have assistant coaches on our team with the last names Del Rio and Rivera? At this point I dont even want to know if they are related.

Edited October 2, 2023 by RandyHolt

[MartinC]

Just now, RandyHolt said:

Why do we have assistant coaches on our team with the last names Del Rio and Rivera? At this point I dont even want to know if they are related.

Nepotism in the NFL is rife, its not just in Washington. It’s almost embarrassing. 

 

Belicheck has his son with the defensive coordinator title for heavens sake.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

The time to trade either one of them was last off-season. Now the return would be a middling draft pick and wouldn’t help Rivera. 
 

I also don’t think we could get a legit starting OT for either one of them. 

They couldn't trade Young after last season for anything more than a half eaten bologna sandwich, because he hadn't shown he was even remotely healthy enough to be worthy of anything more.  (NOTE: I'm NOT a Young basher. But no team is going to trade a significant asset for a player who played 2 games in a season and looked "ok" but not great coming off a nasty injury.  Especially so since even being available for trade would indicate the Commander's know something and are willing to jettison the 2nd overall pick in the 2020 draft. 

 

Sweat, they could have probably gotten something for.  But, flip-side, the Commander's didn't know if Young would ever be Young again either, so they might have traded Sweat and found out Young was never going to recover, and then they're behind the 8-ball.

 

Unless they could have moved Sweat for a pick and packaged that pick and their own first rounder, there's no way any team is trading a legitimate starting OT for a DE.  

 

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

I don’t get this (but I think you’re right as to Rivera’s POV). 
 

If, in theory, trading either of them could net an upgrade at OT or LB why wouldn’t you do it. The argument would be the team is better now at a weaker position and our backups have filled in adequately at Edge over the last few years. 

I don't think there's an OT which will hit the market which would be an upgrade. And, I REALLY REALLY REALLY think that chemistry on the OL is massively important.  Unless they're getting a guy who already knows the system backwards, I don't think plugging another player into the OL would be helpful at this point.  In April?  Yes.  In October?  No.  Unless they can get Trent Williams to come back, and then sure, ok, you can make it work.  But other than that level of player, which I can't see being on the market, I'm not sure the OL position can be addressed in-season.

 

I'd take Young at DE over another overage LB.  They made that bed.  They're going to have to sleep in it.  This one is even more frustrating to me than OT because you CAN get FA LBs to fill in a whole lot more easily than tackles.  And we've ignored it except for spending a first round pick on it.  And I hate both decisions.

 

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

But to your point, I think Rivera sees those two as his absolute best shot to win now and save his job, so your point is probably dead on. I just don’t get the logic.

 

Having said that, I don’t think either one nets an immediate upgrade at any position of need and would only return middling draft choices. We missed the boat on trading either of them.

I think what's going to happen is we're going to re-sign one of them to a contract they don't deserve, and the other is going to walk for nothing.

 

Unless there's a new GM in place (hopefully) who is willing to let both of them walk to just keep the cap space.  There's no way both will be or should be back.  I'd let them both go and spend the money elsewhere.  Frankly, with Allen + Payne + a good, creative scheme + other competent pieces, they should be able to be a really good defense.  I think they have some other competent pieces.  The scheme, eh, I think we're finding out JDR is a (much) better version of Mike Nolan.  The difference is JDR actually has had good success at some point in his career when Nolan didn't.  Just very "meh" all the way around.

[markmills67]

12 hours ago, Leonard Washington said:

If Gates isn’t popular with the linemen, they may never come together. He doesn’t take any ish. Anything close to a cheap shot, he is in the mix. 
 

I still like to see more out of the wideouts. We need one of them to wreck a game—in a good way. 
 

 

Where have you heard that Gates isn't popular with the rest of the OL, haven't seen it posted anywhere else?.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

I mean, we had 3 sacks on Hurts, which is pretty good. Young played a great game and did a lot to contain Hurts as well. We're all disappointed that the defensive line didn't take over the game, but we went against the best OL in the league and one of the harder to sack QBs, so it's not like they had a bad game. Our LBers did alright too really, keeping Goddert out of most of the game. The problem was mostly the secondary. 

Yeah, this is the difficulty I have judging the defense (and Del Rio) against a team like Philly.  They can beat you in a bunch of different ways - Hurts’ legs, a really good run game, and dangerous pass catchers… all bolstered by a damn good oline.

 

So a defense has to pick their poison.  You can rush 4 unleashed, rush 4 trying to keep Hurts in the pocket, or blitz, and there are substantial risks with each of them.  Personally, I think the most dangerous option is giving Hurts the chance to get out of the pocket - either demoralizing the D via his rushing, or scrambling and putting a ton of pressure on our secondary.

 

Now, I wouldn’t say blitzing is a bad option, but if the back is reading blitz, you’ve got 6 v 5, the 6 includes a top tier OL, and the 5 rushers are going after a qb that’s adept at avoiding pressure… and of course you’re leaving your coverage light and exposing your run D if they run away from the blitz.  Again, not saying it’s the wrong option, but it’s complicated.

[Koolblue13]

6 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Yeah, this is the difficulty I have judging the defense (and Del Rio) against a team like Philly.  They can beat you in a bunch of different ways - Hurts’ legs, a really good run game, and dangerous pass catchers… all bolstered by a damn good oline.

 

So a defense has to pick their poison.  You can rush 4 unleashed, rush 4 trying to keep Hurts in the pocket, or blitz, and there are substantial risks with each of them.  Personally, I think the most dangerous option is giving Hurts the chance to get out of the pocket - either demoralizing the D via his rushing, or scrambling and putting a ton of pressure on our secondary.

 

Now, I wouldn’t say blitzing is a bad option, but if the back is reading blitz, you’ve got 6 v 5, the 6 includes a top tier OL, and the 5 rushers are going after a qb that’s adept at avoiding pressure… and of course you’re leaving your coverage light and exposing your run D if they run away from the blitz.  Again, not saying it’s the wrong option, but it’s complicated.

If our coverage was better, delayed A gap blitzes from Davis as a spy should have been in the playbook, but I think he was busy with Goddert. They really are packed with ways to beat you. I think the defense did a decent job against them. Chase, Fuller, Payne, Allen, Davis, Curl all played really well.

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I don't think there's an OT which will hit the market which would be an upgrade. And, I REALLY REALLY REALLY think that chemistry on the OL is massively important.  Unless they're getting a guy who already knows the system backwards, I don't think plugging another player into the OL would be helpful at this point.  In April?  Yes.  In October?  No.  Unless they can get Trent Williams to come back, and then sure, ok, you can make it work.  But other than that level of player, which I can't see being on the market, I'm not sure the OL position can be addressed in-season.

 

I think its really hard to get a top shelf starting OT in free agency at ANY time. They very very rarely hit the market.

 

Top half of the first round of the draft is where you have to go shopping for a blue chip OT. 

[skinny21]

4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

If our coverage was better, delayed A gap blitzes from Davis as a spy should have been in the playbook, but I think he was busy with Goddert. They really are packed with ways to beat you. I think the defense did a decent job against them. Chase, Fuller, Payne, Allen, Davis, Curl all played really well.

I have a hunch this was a big reason Jack pushed for corner help - both to give the coverage a boost when send an extra rusher, and maybe more importantly to make the scrambling type of qbs (maybe Hurts and Jones especially, being divisional rivals) hold the ball and allow your front 4 more time to collapse the pocket.

 

To your point, I think the D was ok, especially since they were close to making a play a handful of times.  1 tipped ball, Forbes catches the ball that hits his hands (not blaming him though, Brown was all over him), Allen gets his hand on Hurts arm a millisecond earlier, and the game maybe looks different.

[UK Skins]

Some excellent discussion as always. One thing I wanted to throw in there was the comment fairly near the beginning of the game that our special teams were the worst (or one of the worst don't remember exactly) in the league. I know we have had snapping problems but he went on to talk about coverages too. Our STs are usually pretty good, anyone have any idea what he was talking about?

[DJD2]

Can someone explain why they have Chase dropping into coverage, not once, but on multiple plays?