Next Day Thread: Eagles Make Us Sad

[KDawg]

Offense

Sam Howell was absolutely excellent today. Did he hold the ball too long? No. I saw several people say he did on many occasions, but you have to understand that standing there and throwing the ball when pressure is barreling down on you with almost no time to react is even more dangerous than taking the sack. And, by holding the ball instead of panic throwing it, the Commanders were able to come back at the end of the game as Howell's legs bought him time to get the ball downfield or to make a play by running. 

 

The offense sputtered briefly because we went back to the intermediate heavy pass game and things looked sour. However, the majority of this game was the kind of gameplan I think we need to see Howell and this offense be successful. Some quick hitters, some screens, some alert routes and a run game that is consistent (in the sense of usage). I thought Bienemy was masterful today.

 

I've been hard on the OL, and I didn't think today was a good game from them, but it was their best by a landslide. Penalties by Wylie and Leno were in bad situations, protection breakdowns occurred a few times resulting in Howell having to scramble or hits/sacks. But for the most part the gameplan and playcalling kept these guys in the game and fighting. They were good enough today to help this team win... even if we didn't. I grade them at a C- today. Tough for me to go much higher. But it was a good effort and if the upward trajectory continues it's going to be a fun offensive season. 

 

Robinson didn't have a ton of yards or a great yards per carry, but his carries mattered and when he got them they made a difference. The same can be said for Antonio Gibson.

 

Kudos to the wideouts, too. Terry and Curtis really came to play. Dyami had two impactful plays and Dotson, while struggling to be seen as much as he was last year made a few plays when they mattered. Logan Thomas looks like he's rounding back into form as well. 

 

Speaking of receivers... Today the Commanders had 9 players record a reception. 

 

Defense

Our defense is chock full of first rounders. Chase Young, Montez Sweat, Daron Payne, Jon Allen, Jamin Davis, Emmanuel Forbes... And the DTs have had a rough few games but they are consistently solid for years at this point. But other than them the best players have been Fuller, Forrest and Curl. None of which have that same kind of pedigree. St Juste should be mentioned there as well. 

 

This defense needs to start playing much better than it has been if this team wants to win games. 

 

We are allowing 352 yards per game, that's 22nd in the NFL (20th against pass and 21st against the run). I put that big time on our defensive line.

 

The defense is 29th in points per game allowed at 30 ppg. The Broncos allowed 70 in one game and we're only ahead of them by 7.5 points. 

 

When you have four first rounders as starters on your DL you cannot be a sub 20th ranked defense in any category. You just can't. 

 

This defense needs to get a wake up call quick. Off-man coverage and blitzing in the NFL is interesting. I saw that a few times. When you blitz against the caliber of players in the NFL you want to be pressed so the QB doesn't have the quick exit valve when pressure comes. Yet we're playing off-man and allowing Hurts to get the quick throws off. Little things like that add up. 

 

Specs

On the outside it looked like Way struggled, and he may have. I didn't pull the game back up so this is first take thoughts: I think Cheeseman had some issues with the snaps that contributed to Way's game. Of course, the snaps were good enough to get to Way... So part of the struggles are undoubtedly on him. Just some food for thought here.

 

Studs and Duds:

*** - Sam Howell

*** - Eric Bienemy

*** - Terry McLaurin

** - Brian Robinson

** - Curtis Samuel

* - Antonio Gibson

 - Cheeseman

 - Forbes (He had a few great plays but a few too many bad ones)

 - Cody Barton

 

 

Season Studs/Duds

5x* - Daron Payne

5x*- Montez Sweat

5x* - Terry McLaurin

4x* - Kam Curl

4x* - Brian Robinson

3x* - Sam Howell

3x* - Eric Bienemy

2x* - Curtis Samuel

2x* - Jon Allen

1x* - Emmanuel Forbes

1x* - Darrick Forrest

1x* - Chase Young

1x* - Logan Thomas

1x* - Antonio Gibson

1x  - Saadhiq Charles

1x  - Cody Barton

4x  - Cheeseman 

5x  - Andrew Wylie

6x  - Ron Rivera 

 

[NoVaSkins21]

This team went toe-to-toe with the conference champs and lost barely.  Shows the heart this team has, especially Sam.  The defense let this team on numerous occasions to get off the field and that includes OT.  The Eagles coaching staff made adjustments after being down at halftime.  This coaching staff, besides EB, made none.  JDR and Rivera don't know squat about defense.  

Edited October 2, 2023 by NoVaSkins21

[Warhead36]

The D is overrated af. They always get destroyed by good or better offenses. They cant make big plays against them at all. Young had one great sack and a couple pressures but thats it. Everyone else was invisible. If we score 31 unassisted points(meaning no short fields from takeaways or special teams), we should never lose with how much has been invested in the defense.

 

Offensively for the most part I liked our playcalling. Didnt love a few calls here and there but thatd be overly nitpicking. Howell balled out. OL still sucks but against that front it coulda been worse. I think we overrated our receivers too. Mclaurin is a baller but he doesn’t dominate the way a true A1 like Brown does. Dotson is nowhere near Devante Smith and Samuel is Mr. 5 yards and not much else. 
 

Effort and execution was mostly good and if we play like this all year we should win 10 games. But if you wanna beat a team like Philly in their house you have to make the most of every opportunity and you need your big name players to make a big play to win a game. 

[PeterMP]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

However, the majority of this game was the kind of gameplan I think we need to see Howell and this offense be successful. Some quick hitters, some screens, some alert routes and a run game that is consistent (in the sense of usage). I thought Bienemy was masterful today.

 

So the interesting thing to me will be is now that they've put tape out there on them running these sorts of plays will they be able to execute it again against other good defenses with the same success (not the bears).

[KDawg]

Just now, PeterMP said:

 

So the interesting thing to me will be is now that they've put tape out there on them running these sorts of plays will they be able to execute it again against other good defenses with the same success (not the bears).

Yes. Because once defenses adjust to this style then the stuff Bienemy really wants to do opens up.

[PeterMP]

Just now, KDawg said:

Yes. Because once defenses adjust to this style then the stuff Bienemy really wants to do opens up.

 

I'm not sure that's really true.  Because the OL will still be an issue.  It isn't like coaches are going to change what their edge rushers are doing much whether the focus will is quick passing or longer routes.

 

If they went to a more run heavy offense, that might affect things.  But in today's NFL, pretty much every defensive coach on plays where you are throwing are telling their edge rusher to go get the QB.

[Daniel.redskins]

We almost beat and very, very, very good team. Can't really blame anyone for this loss.  Eagles are a 14-3 team.  Still don't understand the decision not to go for two.  It's a long season, no need to get players hurt in OT.  If you get a 50/50 play against the Eagles for a win, it's the obvious choice.

 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I had to stream the game today so no game day thread for me. The stream is always a few beats behind.

 

I thought Jamin Davis played more downhill today and made some nice plays. Yes, the Swift play was tough but that guy is pretty slippery. 
 

Opposing offenses are just way too comfortable right now. Forbes took his lumps but I still think he’s gonna be a great player. 

[KDawg]

Just now, PeterMP said:

 

I'm not sure that's really true.  Because the OL will still be an issue.  It isn't like coaches are going to change what their edge rushers are doing much whether the focus will is quick passing or longer routes.

 

If they went to a more run heavy offense, that might affect things.  But in today's NFL, pretty much every defensive coach on plays where you are throwing are telling their edge rusher to go get the QB.

They do, actually. The running game (and misdirection) can help keep the ends at bay.

 

OUR ends don’t change what they do… but other teams’ ends absolutely diagnose run or pass (or guess based on film) on what they are going to see. Ends getting up field too fast are a recipe for runs right where they were. 
 

but the big difference is in the DBs. Going to more press man to take away the short stuff can open up a more vertical passing game.

 

He won’t be able to go full stop throw the ball 80 times a game with this group. But more of what he wants with this overall gameplan can get sprinkled in.

[Redd]

Offensive Line is still trash. Can’t run the ball effectively with them. Howell improved on getting rid of the ball but they are giving him no time back there.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Redd said:

Offensive Line is still trash. Can’t run the ball effectively with them. Howell improved on getting rid of the ball but they are giving him no time back there.

C- is a below average grade and I believe that is fair for today. On the season their GPA is in bad shape, still.

[NoCalMike]

I'll have to come back later for more fully fleshed out thoughts, but what I will say for now is that games like today would have me feeling a lot better about the team if they also weren't playing coin flip games with teams like Arizona & Denver.   Looking at the schedule going into the season I knew for sure the Eagles, Cowboys, 49ers, Bills, etc etc....would be absolute slugfests, having to play very well to win, but if that also extends to teams like Denver Arizona (so far) and now The Bears & Falcons coming up, then to me it means that while we might have a QB1 in Howell, the team overall still has a lot of replacing/upgrading to go.   

 

I look at this Thursday against the Bears to be a "prove to me you aren't the same team we've seen every season so far under Ron Rivera" game.  The Bears are bad, Justin Fields is bad, etc etc.....there is no way we should be in a game that comes down to the final drive against the Bears if we are supposed to believe the team is better.

 

...to be continued...

[Redd]

I’m going to that game. I’m done for the season if we give the Bears their first win…..in forever.

[MartinC]

I think we need to start asking some serious questions about a defense with 6 recent first round picks invested in it that is giving up 30 points a game on average through four games.
 

Thats not a good return on the investment on that side of the ball. 
 

There is a lack of creativity or disguise on the pressure scheme. JDR relies on the front 4 to get home - that’s too vanilla. In coverage we are generally sound but then again the lack of disguise or adjustment is an issue.

 

For example we allowed the Eagles to isolate Brown on Forbes for most of the game without help. That was just a physical mismatch. I’m surprised the Eagles didn’t go to that more often than they did.  
 

JDR needs to be on notice. We need more from the D. Asking a young QB to have to score over 30 to win is too much. 
 

 

 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, NoCalMike said:

I'll have to come back later for more fully fleshed out thoughts, but what I will say for now is that games like today would have me feeling a lot better about the team if they also weren't playing coin flip games with teams like Arizona & Denver.   Looking at the schedule going into the season I knew for sure the Eagles, Cowboys, 49ers, Bills, etc etc....would be absolute slugfests, having to play very well to win, but if that also extends to teams like Denver Arizona (so far) and now The Bears & Falcons coming up, then to me it means that while we might have a QB1 in Howell, the team overall still has a lot of replacing/upgrading to go.   

 

I look at this Thursday against the Bears to be a "prove to me you aren't the same team we've seen every season so far under Ron Rivera" game.  The Bears are bad, Justin Fields is bad, etc etc.....there is no way we should be in a game that comes down to the final drive against the Bears if we are supposed to believe the team is better.

 

...to be continued...

I think the team does have a lot of replacing to do. The entire OL is replacement level. Cosmi has the best upside and can be kept and likely looks a lot better when he isn’t the best OL on the roster.

 

RB is a spot that we need a playmaker. Tight end needs a higher end option.

 

Need 2-3 LBs, gonna need a DE, possibly a corner, possibly a safety if we don’t get Curl back.

Just now, MartinC said:

I think we need to start asking some serious questions about a defense with 6 recent first round picks invested in it that is giving up 30 points a game on average through four games.
 

Thats not a good return on the investment on that side of the ball. 
 

There is a lack of creativity or disguise on the pressure scheme. JDR relies on the front 4 to get home - that’s too vanilla. In coverage we are generally sound but then again the lack of disguise or adjustment is an issue.

 

For example we allowed the Eagles to isolate Brown on Forbes for most of the game without help. That was just a physical mismatch. I’m surprised the Eagles didn’t go to that more often than they did.  
 

JDR needs to be on notice. We need more from the D. Asking a young QB to have to score over 30 to win is too much. 
 

 

 

I also think the team should be exploring trades for Young and/or Sweat right now before the deadline. It’s not likely we find a great RoI now, but we need to be looking around. Does anyone have a LB that is available? Maybe a tackle? We aren’t going to get a stud, but maybe enough of an upgrade to make an impact.

 

But probably not much with the ends in contract years.

[PeterMP]

18 minutes ago, KDawg said:

They do, actually. The running game (and misdirection) can help keep the ends at bay.

 

OUR ends don’t change what they do… but other teams’ ends absolutely diagnose run or pass (or guess based on film) on what they are going to see. Ends getting up field too fast are a recipe for runs right where they were. 
 

but the big difference is in the DBs. Going to more press man to take away the short stuff can open up a more vertical passing game.

 

He won’t be able to go full stop throw the ball 80 times a game with this group. But more of what he wants with this overall gameplan can get sprinkled in.

 

I specifically said if we want to a run heavy game plan, that might change things.  But we didn't run the ball more so nobody is going to change their edge rushers behavior because of us running the ball more today.

 

Against Arizona taking away Howells rushes: 26; attempted passes 31 (didn't count in sacks either so there were more downs where we were passing)

Broncos: rushes 21; attempted passes 39

Buffalo: rushes 12; attempted passes: 29

Today: rushing: 22, attempted passes 41 

 

The Buffalo game is clearly the outlier because we got blown out.  But NOBODY is watching today's game film and saying that they have to worry more about the run as compared to the first 3 weeks.  If anything, our offense today was less run heavy.  If you're watching this game film, you're telling your edge rushers to worry less about us running the ball.

 

(I feel like Howell was more aggressive at getting out of the pocket and running the ball today.  And that might make a difference too.)

 

I watch other teams.  Most other teams are not changing what their edge rushers are doing in a quick passing game vs. a more vertical passing game.

 

Yes coverage schemes will change.  My question really boils down to are Howell and the WRs good enough to take advantage of changes in coverage schemes given that the OL is still bad.

Edited October 2, 2023 by PeterMP

[KDawg]

Just now, PeterMP said:

 

I specifically said if we want to a run heavy game plan, that might change things.  But we didn't run the ball more so nobody is going to change their edge rushers behavior because of us running the ball more today.

 

Against Arizona taking away Howells rushes: 26; attempted passes 31

Broncos: rushes 21; attempted passes 39

Buffalo: rushes 12; attempted passes: 29

Today: rushing: 22, attempted passes 41 

 

The Buffalo game is clearly the outlier because we got blown out.  But NOBODY is watching today's game film and saying that they have to worry more about the run as compared to the first 3 weeks.  If anything, our offense today was less run heavy.  If you're watching this game film, you're telling your edge rushers to worry less about us running the ball.

 

(I feel like Howell was more aggressive at getting out of the pocket and running the ball today.  And that might make a difference too.)

 

I watch other teams.  Most other teams are not changing what their edge rushers are doing in a quick passing game vs. a more vertical passing game.

 

Yes coverage schemes will change.  My question really boils down to are Howell and the WRs good enough to take advantage of changes in coverage schemes given that the OL is still bad.

The ends are reading the linemen. They change how they play based on what the offense is doing. 
 

We don’t have to be more run heavy. We need to be using more quick concepts and runs and screens to get the ends and other pass rushers a list of things to account for. That slows them.

 

Yes, I believe Howell and the receivers are good enough to take advantage of any changes in coverages/rush 

[MartinC]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I think the team does have a lot of replacing to do. The entire OL is replacement level. Cosmi has the best upside and can be kept and likely looks a lot better when he isn’t the best OL on the roster.

 

RB is a spot that we need a playmaker. Tight end needs a higher end option.

 

Need 2-3 LBs, gonna need a DE, possibly a corner, possibly a safety if we don’t get Curl back.

Cosmi had a rough day today. Cox abused him on a few snaps.  Cox is still a good player, but he’s not the guy he was - Cosmi should have done better. 
 

On needs OT is glaring. I agree with you on RB and TE.

 

On defense Young probably won’t be back so DE, a LB and maybe a FS. I think they have to extend Curl.

 

If Sam continues to develop we can be very competitive quickly. The arrow is pointing up. Add a stud at LT and another quality OL in free agency with a QB with a year under his belt and things could look pretty good.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

15 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

Forbes took his lumps but I still think he’s gonna be a great player. 

Why?

 

I say that seriously, not being a smartass.  I just don’t see it.

 

I see no ballhawking, just a guy several steps behind big plays, and no ability to get physical.  He’s jawing at AJ Brown only to get picked on over and over again and egregiously gave up on a play.

 

I’ve seen no flashes that lead me to believe he’s going to be a player at this level.

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

Howell > Jones

Howell > Fields

Howell > Pickett

Howell > Ridder

Howell > Z. Wilson

Howell > Trask

Howell > Mond

Howell > Mills

Howell > Young 

 

Howell > basically everyone but Lawrence and Stroud and Richardson and Purdy from those last two or three drafts and 3 of those are too close. 

 

EDIT: It was brought to my attention that I left out Purdy so I'm going to put him in the class with Stroud and Richardson. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Thinking Skins

[NoVaSkins21]

13 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I think we need to start asking some serious questions about a defense with 6 recent first round picks invested in it that is giving up 30 points a game on average through four games.
 

Thats not a good return on the investment on that side of the ball. 
 

There is a lack of creativity or disguise on the pressure scheme. JDR relies on the front 4 to get home - that’s too vanilla. In coverage we are generally sound but then again the lack of disguise or adjustment is an issue.

 

For example we allowed the Eagles to isolate Brown on Forbes for most of the game without help. That was just a physical mismatch. I’m surprised the Eagles didn’t go to that more often than they did.  
 

JDR needs to be on notice. We need more from the D. Asking a young QB to have to score over 30 to win is too much. 
 

 

 

JDR has no creativity.  His idea of creativity is dropping Chase into coverage which is just so wrong.  Keeping Forbes on AJ Brown instead of switching to someone else is just another bad scheme.  Like others have said, this team is missing pieces especially at MLB.  It's beyond insane that two former LBs in this league can't have good play at the position

Edited October 2, 2023 by NoVaSkins21

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I think we need to start asking some serious questions about a defense with 6 recent first round picks invested in it that is giving up 30 points a game on average through four games.
 

Thats not a good return on the investment on that side of the ball. 
 

There is a lack of creativity or disguise on the pressure scheme. JDR relies on the front 4 to get home - that’s too vanilla. In coverage we are generally sound but then again the lack of disguise or adjustment is an issue.

 

For example we allowed the Eagles to isolate Brown on Forbes for most of the game without help. That was just a physical mismatch. I’m surprised the Eagles didn’t go to that more often than they did.  
 

JDR needs to be on notice. We need more from the D. Asking a young QB to have to score over 30 to win is too much. 

 

I don't know who would get promoted if Ron wanted to make a mid-season change.  
 

But one of two things (or I guess both things) are true:

 

1. the multitude of draft picks were just not good picks.  A little unlucky with Young’s injury.  But all the other high draft picks, just not good enough as players.

 

2. The coaching and scheme is just not good enough.

 

Either way.  It’s bad.

 

I think we’ve spent WAY too many resources on defense, which is by far the less important side of the ball.  Either all the picks pay off and you have a top 5 unit or else it’s a huge, enormous waste.  
 

 

[Leonard Washington]

If Gates isn’t popular with the linemen, they may never come together. He doesn’t take any ish. Anything close to a cheap shot, he is in the mix. 
 

I still like to see more out of the wideouts. We need one of them to wreck a game—in a good way. 
 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Leonard Washington

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Offense was COOKING. Deserved better. 
 

I know it’s not realistic to expect a defense to win games against good offenses but damn, not one of the “generationals” made a big play. In games like this, your blue chips have to make plays. That’s the difference 

[Voice_of_Reason]

11 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Howell > Jones

Howell > Fields

Howell > Pickett

Howell > Ridder

Howell > Z. Wilson

Howell > Trask

Howell > Mond

Howell > Mills

Howell > Young 

 

Howell > basically everyone but Lawrence and Stroud and Richardson from those last two or three drafts and 2 of those are too close. 

You left Purdy off that list.  
 

Stroud/Richardson, it’s too early to tell.

 

The rest, as of now, it would seem so.