Next Day Thread: Eagles Make Us Sad

[KDawg]

Just now, Voice_of_Reason said:

I don't know who would get promoted if Ron wanted to make a mid-season change.  
 

But one of two things (or I guess both things) are true:

 

1. the multitude of draft picks were just not good picks.  A little unlucky with Young’s injury.  But all the other high draft picks, just not good enough as players.

 

2. The coaching and scheme is just not good enough.

 

Either way.  It’s bad.

 

I think we’ve spent WAY too many resources on defense, which is by far the less important side of the ball.  Either all the picks pay off and you have a top 5 unit or else it’s a huge, enormous waste.  
 

 

I don’t think it’s fair to say defense is by far less important. You can’t win with a bad D or a bad O. 
 

But, to your point, you don’t need high end talent across the board on defense to be effective. You need schematically sound players that can communicate well and fit within a scheme. 
 

Yes, you need some talent. But most importantly you need guys who match up to work as the glue.

 

Offensively you need more talent because they have to overcome the things the defense brings to the table. And the best offensive players are highly drafted because they generally have high skill, high speed and great size. 
 

Plus, the QB really skews the need for elite talent in O because if you don’t have a QB you’re sunk. 

[tmandoug1]

Did I see Dotson slow up on a possible touchdown throw from Howell? I was in the bleachers at my grandsons game watching on you tube on my phone.....

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

13 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Why?

 

I say that seriously, not being a smartass.  I just don’t see it.

I see the tools. Speed. Attitude. Long frame.
 

He got picked on today. He’ll learn from it. He’s a ****ing rookie. 

[MartinC]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I don't know who would get promoted if Ron wanted to make a mid-season change.  
 

But one of two things (or I guess both things) are true:

 

1. the multitude of draft picks were just not good picks.  A little unlucky with Young’s injury.  But all the other high draft picks, just not good enough as players.

 

2. The coaching and scheme is just not good enough.

 

Either way.  It’s bad.

 

I think we’ve spent WAY too many resources on defense, which is by far the less important side of the ball.  Either all the picks pay off and you have a top 5 unit or else it’s a huge, enormous waste.  
 

 

Allen and Payne are as advertised. Neither is Allan Donald - but they are top 10 DTs.

 

Sweat and Young are good players but they don’t make enough impact plays. Young certainly is not playing to draft status but they are both good starters. 
 

Davis is a solid starter but not a first round talent. 
 

Way too early to say on Forbes, but he’s clearly going to struggle with physical receivers like Brown. 
 

Personally I think there is a lot of talent on our D. It needs better, and more aggressive, coaching IMO.

[Koolblue13]

Before the game it's all "the eagles had the easiest schedule ever last year" and "they're playing terrible and have a ton of injuries"(which is true).

 

Now it's we beat the team that's going to win the Superbowl.    

 

EB either runs BRob up the gut on first down or does that stupid sweep play everyone sees coming. Where is Randy Jordan in the game planning? The run game still stinks, unless BRob does some miraculous ****. That won't last.

 

I had a feeling that EB was going to go right back to his fun and gun offense after the half and **** everything up, but when that sucked again, he dialed it back and I'll give him credit for that. He called a great 4rth Q.

 

I do not understand how we have so much talent on the defense and this is what we get. JDR needs to go. Butler is an absolute liability at center fielder. He has not improved at all in year two. Forbes on Green all day? Holy stupid. Why wasn't Juste doing that? Or Forbes on Smith and Fuller on Brown? That makes no sense and it happened in the second half too. Eagles offense has mostly sucked this year and that was all they had today was to pick on Forbes and it was enough.

 

Overall I'm happy with the game and we played our hearts out. There is a ton to build on going forward and that's what this season is all about.

 

Next year with a real GM and FO, bringing in young aggressive coaches, this team doesn't need much to be great.

 

Let's hope our defense can slow the Bears offense down next week.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, MartinC said:

Allen and Payne are as advertised. Neither is Allan Donald - but they are top 10 DTs.

 

Sweat and Young are good players but they don’t make enough impact plays. Young certainly is not playing to draft status but they are both good starters. 
 

Davis is a solid starter but not a first round talent. 
 

Way too early to say on Forbes, but he’s clearly going to struggle with physical receivers like Brown. 
 

Personally I think there is a lot of talent on our D. It needs better, and more aggressive, coaching IMO.

I think they should let both Chase and Sweat walk in the off season.  Spend your money elsewhere.  They’re not good enough for big money deals.  

[PeterMP]

25 minutes ago, KDawg said:

The ends are reading the linemen. They change how they play based on what the offense is doing. 
 

We don’t have to be more run heavy. We need to be using more quick concepts and runs and screens to get the ends and other pass rushers a list of things to account for. That slows them.

 

Yes, I believe Howell and the receivers are good enough to take advantage of any changes in coverages/rush 

 

Yes, the ends read the lineman.  Is it run or pass?  Where is the OL expecting the QB to drop to (what spot is the OL protecting 3 step vs. 5 step drop)?  Etc.

 

But that happens every game every play.  That isn't game plan stuff.  It isn't like last week the Bills told their DEs to read the OL, and the Eagles in the 2nd half said hey they've gone to a quick passing game, DEs stop reading their OL.  Or next week a coach is going to tell their DEs based on this game file, DEs I want you to stop reading the OL.

 

The fact that this game and plays are now on tape will have no affect on whether DL read the OL.  Quick passing game will mean that edge rushers have to adjust the spot they are aiming for, but most teams aren't really changing their game plan for the DEs based on this game.  The objective will still be to get to Howell and disrupt him.

 

And again, with the rushes.  This game isn't an outlier that it matters.  And we've been running screens.  Before the BIlls blow out, people were complementing Bieniemy on his use of the screen.

 

E.g.

 

https://www.hogshaven.com/2023/9/20/23881816/film-session-eric-bieniemys-screen-designs-created-explosive-offense-for-washington-commanders

 

And it wasn't like our screen game was especially effective today.

 

I do think Howell being more aggressive getting out of the pocket and running the ball might matter, especially if he does it another game.

 

If you think the Howell and the WRs can take advantages of changes in game plans based on what teams see in this film, that's great.  I'm more doubtful and in a wait and see.

Edited October 2, 2023 by PeterMP

[KDawg]

Just now, MartinC said:

Allen and Payne are as advertised. Neither is Allan Donald - but they are top 10 DTs.

 

Sweat and Young are good players but they don’t make enough impact plays. Young certainly is not playing to draft status but they are both good starters. 
 

Davis is a solid starter but not a first round talent. 
 

Way too early to say on Forbes, but he’s clearly going to struggle with physical receivers like Brown. 
 

Personally I think there is a lot of talent on our D. It needs better, and more aggressive, coaching IMO.

I think the coaching point is true. But really, what I think the problem is with our D is there are too many high talented guys. They all want to be the alpha… and they can’t be. Defense needs guys who want to be role players. Defense is so reliant on being a symbiotic relationship. 
 

Too many alphas mean too many guys that aren’t functioning as a unit. 

[MartinC]

2 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I think they should let both Chase and Sweat walk in the off season.  Spend your money elsewhere.  They’re not good enough for big money deals.  

Lot of football to play still - I could be convinced on Sweat. Hard to replace both DEs in one offseason but I wouldn’t be paying a market resetting deal thats for sure. 
 

Young almost certainly wont be back. If there is any market for him I’d be open to trading him (don’t think anyone will give us enough to make that happen though) 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I see the tools. Speed. Attitude. Long frame.
 

He got picked on today. He’ll learn from it. He’s a ****ing rookie. 

Long frame, but skinny af.  Attitude didn’t look real good today.  
 

I hope you’re right.

[MartinC]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Too many alphas mean too many guys that aren’t functioning as a unit. 

That’s where coaching comes in. Needs someone who can design a scheme to attack offenses and get players to buy in. 
 

JDR needs to go IMO. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

 

Yes, the ends read the lineman.  Is it run or pass?  Where is the OL expecting the QB to drop to (what spot is the OL protecting 3 step vs. 5 step drop)?  Etc.

 

But that happens every game every play.  That isn't game plan stuff.  It isn't like last week the Bills told their DEs to read the OL, and the Eagles said hey they've gone to a quick passing game, DEs stop reading their OL.  Or next week a coach is going to tell their DEs based on this game file, DEs I want you to stop reading the OL.

 

The fact that this game and plays are now on tape will have no affect on whether DL read the OL.  Quick passing game will mean that edge rushers have to adjust the spot they are aiming for, but most teams aren't really changing their game plan for the DEs based on this game.  The objective will still be to get to Howell and disrupt him.

 

And again, with the rushes.  This game isn't an outlier that it matters.  And we've been running screens.  Before the BIlls blow out, people were complementing Bieniemy on his use of the screen.

 

E.g.

 

https://www.hogshaven.com/2023/9/20/23881816/film-session-eric-bieniemys-screen-designs-created-explosive-offense-for-washington-commanders

 

And it wasn't like our screen game was especially effective today.

 

I do think Howell being more aggressive getting out of the pocket and running the ball might matter, especially if he does it another game.

 

If you think the Howell and the WRs can take advantages of changes in game plans based on what teams see in this film, that's great.  I'm more doubtful and in a wait and see.

I’m not sure what you’re arguing at this point. The quicker hitting stuff frustrates defensive linemen. Playaction, freezes things a bit as well.

 

The running game has to be a threat. So far it hasn’t been. But when they run it consistently throughout a game the DL can’t pin their ears back on every down.

 

The edges don’t always read the OL, by the way. There are situations where the down/distance and scouting report provide tendencies based on formation and motion that tell the DEs to pin their ears back.

 

I’ve been in the game for a long time. I’m telling you, quick hitters, screens and a running game change the coverage and the way a DL reacts to certain things. 
 

The best ends aren’t fooled by much of anything, but I doubt we’re having this conversation about the outlier top percentage of players.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Maybe we should trade Wylie back to the Chiefs. 
 

Their RT is struggling.  Think we could trade Wylie for … Travis Kelce?  Seems like a fair trade.  We’ll take Kelce and the Swiftie drama off their hands and they can have their SB winning RT back.  

[spjunkies]

Rivera needs to can Del Rio and coach the D himself. Let's be real, it's his best bet to survive here.

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 minutes ago, MartinC said:

That’s where coaching comes in. Needs someone who can design a scheme to attack offenses and get players to buy in. 
 

JDR needs to go IMO. 

He needed to go a while ago.  

[SpacePenguin]

2 minutes ago, spjunkies said:

Rivera needs to can Del Rio and coach the D himself. Let's be real, it's his best bet to survive here.

Rivera couldn't coach himself out of a wet paper bag. Let's be real, it's time to clean house.

[JSSkinz]

It's good to see Sam back, I dont know who that guy was last week but please keep him away.

 

The D is disappointing as a whole but I think we just played the #2 and #3 ranked offenses back to back so we'll see how it goes. I think our D tackles are very good, Payne plays over 80% of the snaps and Allen has played the 8th most snaps of any DL in the first 3 weeks so I have a hard time giving them **** because they put a lot on their shoulders and they usually deliver.

 

I don't like the Logan Thomas direct snap play becoming a thing, one time was fine but he has the agility of Frankenstein so pick someone else, I would rather see Payne or Allen run it than him.

 

I was watching cut ups of Forbes vs. Brown today and physicality didn't seem to be an issue, he's just getting burned by the routes so hopefully that's coachable.  He seemed to have trouble playing so far off Brown and then adjusting during the play.

 

BRob only had 14 carries for 3.2 yards but he gets something when nothing is there and he makes the defense feel it. I wish he didn't fumble the TD because he posterized an Eagle and it was a great run, gotta hold onto that ball though.

 

I think we should have gone for the win.  Philly had the lead for pretty much the entire 2nd half and they are obviously more talented and likely to win in OT so why not run 1 play from the 2 yd. line for the win.  If we were playing anyone else I would say okay but if it's Philly, San Fran, KC, Buff, I'm going for the win because our O line isn't consistent enough against any team let alone a contender.

 

Let's hope Sam can string together consecutive good games and keep building it from there.

 

 

 

  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I get gotcha’d by Del Rio annually, where I’m just crushing him relentlessly and then all the sudden a string of bad QB’s comes up on the schedule and his seat cools down.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, MartinC said:

That’s where coaching comes in. Needs someone who can design a scheme to attack offenses and get players to buy in. 
 

JDR needs to go IMO. 

Agreed. But they don’t seem to respect JDR enough to have him lead the alphas. So the alphas just do whatever they want. 
 

I think we need to change personnel along with Del Rio in order to get rid of that remnant of ego.

 

We’re not in the locker room… but anyone who gives this staff any difficulties or has issues with work ethic, film study or doing their part and not stepping on others can and should go when JDR goes. 
 

Anyone who plays as a team player and works to master their craft would have a role. 

[Thinking Skins]

18 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

You left Purdy off that list.  
 

Stroud/Richardson, it’s too early to tell.

 

The rest, as of now, it would seem so.  

Yeah. I wasn't going to include Purdy at first. But still. I'll put him in with the last 3 at too early. Or maybe with Lawrence. I don't think he's in a class above Howell though. I think he'll come down too earth like Mills did and Jones did and Sanchez. 

[PeterMP]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I’ve been in the game for a long time. I’m telling you, quick hitters, screens and a running game change the coverage and the way a DL reacts to certain things. 

 

I'm arguing that essentially one of those things (quick hitters, screens, and running game) changed today, and you are acting like they all changed. And keep talking about all 3 even though I've pointed out that 2 of them didn't really change today.

 

And the one that changed isn't going to affect most defensive coaches plans for their edge rushers.    And from there, the fact that DEs are still going to come after the QB (for the most part) means if you try to go back to more longer passing routes, you are still going to have issues with the OL holding up and being successful on longer passing routes

[Commander202]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

The D is overrated af. They always get destroyed by good or better offenses. They cant make big plays against them at all. Young had one great sack and a couple pressures but thats it. Everyone else was invisible. If we score 31 unassisted points(meaning no short fields from takeaways or special teams), we should never lose with how much has been invested in the defense.

 

Offensively for the most part I liked our playcalling. Didnt love a few calls here and there but thatd be overly nitpicking. Howell balled out. OL still sucks but against that front it coulda been worse. I think we overrated our receivers too. Mclaurin is a baller but he doesn’t dominate the way a true A1 like Brown does. Dotson is nowhere near Devante Smith and Samuel is Mr. 5 yards and not much else. 
 

Effort and execution was mostly good and if we play like this all year we should win 10 games. But if you wanna beat a team like Philly in their house you have to make the most of every opportunity and you need your big name players to make a big play to win a game. 

I’m starting to believe this to

Idk who’s the next coach but Saleh and Staley will be available as defensive coordinators . Both of them are an upgrade over Del Rio and imo will get our defense to another level .

 

Also off topic but letting Collins go was a mistake . He sucked at safety but hybrid LB or whatever he made consistent plays for us 2xa better than holcomb/davis and sure as hell what Barton done

 

We do not have any impact linebackers and it’s getting worst every year . 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Yeah. I wasn't going to include Purdy at first. But still. I'll put him in with the last 3 at too early. Or maybe with Lawrence. I don't think he's in a class above Howell though. I think he'll come down too earth like Mills did and Jones did and Sanchez. 

At the moment it’s hard not to put him with Lawrence.  He doesn’t actually lose, like, ever.  That’s pretty impressive no matter what.  
 

Until he does come back down to earth, he’s got to be up there as one of the best young QBs. 

[KDawg]

Just now, PeterMP said:

 

I'm arguing that essentially one of those things (quick hitters, screens, and running game) changed today, and you are acting like they all changed. And keep talking about all 3 even though I've pointed out that 2 of them didn't really change today.

 

And the one that changed isn't going to affect most defensive coaches plans for their edge rushers.    And from there, the fact that DEs are still going to come after the QB (for the most part) means if you try to go back to more longer passing routes, you are still going to have issues with the OL holding up and being successful on longer passing routes

But they did change today.

 

We didn’t run enough screen last week. That’s a change. We were consistent with the run game… that was a change. You’re saying we ran it last week, but we didn’t do it consistently. We started pass heavy and settled into the run late to return some balance. 
 

This week we stuck with it for four quarters. Consistency is key. Not total number of carries. 
 

We also ran a ton of intermediate stuff and not a lot of quick hitters. So I’d argue 3 of 3 things changed this week.

 

I’m not arguing that our OL is good. Or that Howell isn’t going to get sacked and harassed. He is. I wouldn’t be surprised to see us get sacked 5 times a game for the rest of the year. Probably set a new record for sacks given up. But, if they continue running the plan like they do today they’ll be able to keep a balance and keep defenses on their toes and will be able to take advantage of more of the stuff Bienemy wants to do. 
 

He’ll never be able to do that stuff full time with the line he has. But running more of it is realistic.

[profusion]

They've over-invested in the DL and underinvested in the rest of the D. Once the play gets past the line, the Commanders look weak. That's a big reason why they can't get off the field on third down.

 

This was a frustrating loss all around. However, it does fit with the Commanders being in the mushy middle of the league.