Next Day Thread: WFT (and their benches) vs. Philly

[Skinsinparadise]

I pulled up the grades on defense.  As we know PFF isn't perfect.  But their grades make it interesting and reassuring to me in some way. Payne and Allen rarely have bad games let alone them doing it in tandem.   Judging by those grades, PFF saw the Eagles O line manhandling Allen and Payne happened along with other things they clearly did in the run game.   Bad run grades across the board on run defense.   If so, I don't know about the other players rebounding.  But Allen and Payne are competitors, I doubt it happens again.   But I'll rewatch this and judge for myself soon. 

 

 

Offensive grades, judging by this Charles had a really bad game

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

The Philadelphia Eagles dominated the Washington Football Team so thoroughly on the ground Tuesday night that, on one first-down play late in the third quarter, Eagles center Jason Kelce looked up from his block, saw the running back about six yards past the line of scrimmage and threw out his right arm. He didn’t need to see the rest to know it would result in another first down.

 

“They [create] gigantic holes,” Eagles running back Jordan Howard said of his coaches and blockers. “It surprises you because it’s like, there aren’t supposed to be holes that big in the NFL.”

After the game, Washington defensive tackle Jon Allen seethed. He laughed bitterly when asked what the Eagles did well in the running game — “What weren’t they doing?” he said — and told everyone to blame the 27-17 loss on the defensive line. Washington allowed more yards on the ground (238) than its offense generated in total (237).

 

...Sweat, like other linemen, called the run defense “unacceptable.” If Washington is to fix the problem against Dallas, if it is to give itself a shot to win, it will need Sweat at his most disruptive as often as possible. The unit that was expected to be the team’s strength before the season must now shore itself up so it doesn’t become a weakness.

“We got our a-- kicked,” Allen said, before walking off the podium and toward a search for answers.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/12/22/washington-football-team-defensive-line/

[London Kev]

I said this in the gameday thread, but that was a tough watch.

 

I don't know how many plays it was possible for Gilbert to learn in four days, but I thought that he played about as well as anyone could have expected. Why is Shurmur on the practice squad if he can't step up and play? I mean he's been here for three months.

 

The thing that really concerned me was the defense. The eagles gained 281 yards passing and 238 yards rushing for a whopping 519 total yards. That's just embarrassing, and to make it worse they had more yards per rush (5.8) than we had per pass (5.3).

 

I liked the way Allen owned it, even though he wasn't the main problem, but the whole defense was absolutely terrible. The lack of practice could have played a part, as could of injuries and Covid, but that was worryingly bad. The cowboys will obviously have seen the weakness and will exploit it unless we can sort it out.

[skinny21]

15 minutes ago, London Kev said:

I said this in the gameday thread, but that was a tough watch.

 

I don't know how many plays it was possible for Gilbert to learn in four days, but I thought that he played about as well as anyone could have expected. Why is Shurmur on the practice squad if he can't step up and play? I mean he's been here for three months.

 

The thing that really concerned me was the defense. The eagles gained 281 yards passing and 238 yards rushing for a whopping 519 total yards. That's just embarrassing, and to make it worse they had more yards per rush (5.8) than we had per pass (5.3).

 

I liked the way Allen owned it, even though he wasn't the main problem, but the whole defense was absolutely terrible. The lack of practice could have played a part, as could of injuries and Covid, but that was worryingly bad. The cowboys will obviously have seen the weakness and will exploit it unless we can sort it out.

Like Montez (the qb) from last year, I think Shurmur is a guy you’re interested in developing (probably hoping they can be a backup), but don’t see as a viable starter (to throw to the wolves) in the meantime.  So, like last year with Heinicke, you bring in a guy that’s been around longer (even if you don’t see as much upside to them), that also has some knowledge of your system.  I think, in part, it looks strange to us because we keep losing our starters and backup qbs.  It might be a different story if your 3rd string, developmental guy got reps beyond scout team, and so had some more familiarity with the actual offense and surrounding cast, but that’s not the case.

[NoVaSkins21]

This game, IMO, was basically a final nail in the coffin.  Not having Heinicke or Allen really hurt, but the game was winnable if the DL can stop the Philly rushing attack which they didn't.  They got one of the luckiest starts they could get by going up 10-0 which could've been 14-0 if Humphries hauls in the pass from Gilbert.  They're not going to win out and get the help they need, but stranger things have happened.  Anything's possible, but highly unlikely.  

[profusion]

Next Man Up has its limits, and the WFT exceeded them last night. I can't get too down on the results.

[Burgold]

Losing McKissic for the season is huge. He's our QB's safety blanket. We use him as a get out of jail card the way most teams use a tight end. 

 

Thinking about the future, this is where you wonder if they should see if Gibson can fit. HIs pass blocking his improved. In very limited opportunities, he has shown nice hands. I think they are trying to preserve touches by not using him in the passing game and I think that's exactly backward. Now, I'm not saying that Gibson's future is as a third down back, but he's probably better used as a multi-tool.

[Warhead36]

10 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Losing McKissic for the season is huge. He's our QB's safety blanket. We use him as a get out of jail card the way most teams use a tight end. 

 

Thinking about the future, this is where you wonder if they should see if Gibson can fit. HIs pass blocking his improved. In very limited opportunities, he has shown nice hands. I think they are trying to preserve touches by not using him in the passing game and I think that's exactly backward. Now, I'm not saying that Gibson's future is as a third down back, but he's probably better used as a multi-tool.

He'll be at his best as a complimentary back. 15 ish carries and about 5 pass catches a game. Bring in a real power back to compliment him. McKissic can stick around as a 3rd back since he's cheap and reliable and is a natural RB fit for this system.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

46 minutes ago, SAli457180 said:

This game, IMO, was basically a final nail in the coffin.  Not having Heinicke or Allen really hurt, but the game was winnable if the DL can stop the Philly rushing attack which they didn't.  They got one of the luckiest starts they could get by going up 10-0 which could've been 14-0 if Humphries hauls in the pass from Gilbert.  They're not going to win out and get the help they need, but stranger things have happened.  Anything's possible, but highly unlikely.  

 

I want to focus on that. Their 10-0 lead really could have been a 3-0 deficit the other way. The first Skins TD was a gift and should have probably been an Eagles first down or, at worst, a punt. The drop was bad enough but the fluke INT was crazy. Then, the red zone fumble that turned into instant great field position leading to the FG was another gift. I didn't really think about while watching, but before the Skins scored in the 4th, that game really could have been something like 27-0. 

[RansomthePasserby]

43 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

He'll be at his best as a complimentary back. 15 ish carries and about 5 pass catches a game. Bring in a real power back to compliment him. McKissic can stick around as a 3rd back since he's cheap and reliable and is a natural RB fit for this system.

Yeah I’d be happy with an upgrade from Gibson to a more reliable workhorse back and keeping McKissic as our pass catching 3rd down back. I think Gibson fits in a 2 back scheme, but both Gibson and McKissic need a Batman to their Robin.  We need a Batman, right now we have two Robins. 

[UK Skins]

I thought the play that summed up Sweat's season was his sack. He's standing there celebrating, not even realising the ball is loose and the play is still going on.

[PartyPosse]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Tough for me to grade the trenches players on the fly.  Easy to see a sacks or a big play but tough for me to lock into play after play.  Allen had one big play.  Sweat had another.  Outside of that.  Tough to see a lot for me.  Obviously the Eagles ran down their throats but I didn't lock into the culprits for it.  Looks like PFF, which normally grades Allen very highly, agreed with Allen's own take of his performance yesterday.

I kept saying how bad Allen and Payne looked and then everyone was talking about the great game he had and I was floored. For a guy touted as an all-pro and Making 16 a year, in a game we absolutely needed him and Payne to make their presence known they came up alarmingly small. What was Payne’s grade?

 

Edit: I see Payne was our worst defensive player. Not shocked by that.

Edited December 22, 2021 by PartyPosse

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to Keim's podcast.  He said he noticed Jonathan Allen was playing upright-high which was unusual for him.  And he also looked gassed. 

 

On the he looked gassed part.  My thoughts here not Keim.   2 things that might have contributed to it.  1.  COVID.  i know these guys are athletes but still it can take its toll.  I know some people who got COVID and it took them awhile to feel 100%.  2.  We had like a spell of 5 drives in a row that was 3 and out or close enough to that.  That would add obviously to a player getting worn down. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked.

[skins4eva]

This defense kills me. It really does. Payne is mediocre and doesn’t do anything to remotely justify his status as a first rounder. The same could be said of Montez as well. And Chase, well the jury is out. Part of the problem seems to be coaching. We see what a really good offensive line coach can do to maximize talent. On the d-line, we seem to have the inverse problem: we have a lot of talent but can’t maximize it. It’s incredibly frustrating. It’s both scheme and execution. On one of the goal line situations, we have a three man front and fell for Philly’s red herring of bunching receivers. Easy QB sneak. But it highlighted my fundamental reaction to Del rio’s defense: it is almost entirely passive and reactive. And that’s just not a recipe for success. You have to make an offense guess. You have to occasionally do something unexpected. Frankly, I don’t think we have good enough coaches on that side of the ball to do it. You see it with our linebackers as well: it’s true we have minimal talent there, but where’s the recognition?  Where is the aggressiveness?  This defensive scheme isn’t designed to create chaos, it seems designed to allow a slow and steady march into the red zone and to concede vast acres of space. How can people be ok with that as a defensive philosophy?  We don’t do anything defensively to even attempt to maximize our strengths. And asking Holcomb and Davis to sit and react is essentially like taking 2 guys out of our defense on every play. 

 

last night on a 3rd and 6 when the score was 20-17 and we needed a stop, Holcomb and Davis sit in some sort of absurd soft middle zone and let goedert run right between them and sit at the sticks for a first down. Both were sitting there watching Hurts and completely oblivious to the tight end between them.  That’s horrific awareness, scheme and coaching rolled into one giant ball of suck. 

bottom line: I know del Rio has his defenders, but I’ve seen enough. He has got to go. 
 

 

 

[Warhead36]

Del Rio definitely got outcoached last night. We had no answers for the read option.

[skins4eva]

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Del Rio definitely got outcoached last night. We had no answers for the read option.

Del Rio getting outcoached happens with alarming regularity. 

[method man]

9 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Del Rio definitely got outcoached last night. We had no answers for the read option.

 

That is one of Del Rio's weaknesses I've noticed. He really struggles against QBs that are mobile. It's a very consistent theme. It's almost as if he's willing to give up those yards if it means limiting the other team's passing game. That strategy works when the other team has a mediocre or worse run game outside the QB but it falls apart when the RBs and OL are strong as well.

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Keim's podcast.  He said he noticed Jonathan Allen was playing upright-high which was unusual for him.  And he also looked gassed. 

 

On the he looked gassed part.  My thoughts here not Keim.   2 things that might have contributed to it.  1.  COVID.  i know these guys are athletes but still it can take its toll.  I know some people who got COVID and it took them awhile to feel 100%.  2.  We had like a spell of 5 drives in a row that was 3 and out or close enough to that.  That would add obviously to a player getting worn down. 

 

I totally buy this. The run D was okay in the first half and fell off in the 2nd half given all the 3 & outs by the offense

[Voice_of_Reason]

I'm going to go "big themes" today with one exception where I want everybody to go look at a play so they can laugh.

 

BIG THEME #1: When you're on QB 4, it amplifies the other deficiencies on the team. 

 

Players get hurt, and teams deal with injuries.  And for the most part, I give Ron and staff a ton of credit for keeping things going while having half a roster.

 

If you told me we had a top 10-15 QB, and you are missing a starting WR, a couple of guys on the OL, a starting TE and a contributing RB, I would have said, "eeee, that's tough, but that's life.  Go figure out a way to move the ball and score points."

 

When you tell me the QB got here at 11:00 on Friday, hasn't really practiced, and you're down to your 4th center, 3rd guard, and have McKissic, Samuel and Logan Thomas all out, I say that's just flat too much to overcome. Then Gibson gets hurt in the game, and you're really in a pickle.  

 

You'd like to just line-up and run it.  But you can't do that because a) you have Ishmael and Charles on the OL (no knock to them but they are 4th and 3rd string respectively), and b) Philly KNOWS you want to do this, so they're just not going to let you.  Period.  

 

All the guys who you would want to be there to help a QB in that situation were out.  Your best center.  Your best guard (who's probably your best OL).  A safety valve like McKissic.  A big target like Logan. A gadget guy like Samuel who can take carries from Gibson and stretch the defense...

 

I would love to have seen them try to do some more creative things, but that's hard to do when you have a signal caller who's been in the building 4 days.  

 

The odds of you winning with a practice squad QB who's been in the building for 4 days are about as slim as me having a Threesome with Freya Allen and Anya Chalotra.  (If you don't know who they are, watch The Witcher on Netflix, especially season 1 for Anya, whew.)  It COULD happen, but the odds are extremely low.  

 

BIG THEME #2: When you know the opposing offense is going to do something, and you still can't stop it, that's bad.

 

The Eagles have chosen to make themselves one-dimensional.  They are a run-first, and almost a run-only team.  By choice.  Most teams want to stay balanced in order to keep defenses guessing a little bit.  The old adage is you want to make a team one-dimensional because it's easier to defend.  Well, the Eagles have done that to themselves, on purpose.  

 

I get that they are down a bunch of DEs at this point, and that Cam Kurl didn't play because of COVID.  But the Eagles make absolutely no secret what they are going to try and do.  They are going to run the ever-loving snot out of the ball, and you have to stop them.  One of the reasons they can do this is because their QB is intricately involved in the running game.  

 

So you have to figure out how to stop it.  At all costs.  You can't let them get 5-7 yards per rush on first down when you know they're going to run it.  Even if you give up a few big plays, if you stop them on a few first downs, that's something.  Or at least you make them adjust to you. 

 

I think Jack had a B-A-D game.  They looked completely unprepared for what the Eagles do. Which is so odd because the Panthers ran a lot of it with Cam.  So you'd think they would be familiar with how to stop it.  

 

The number of times we played straight-up, with 4 down linemen, 3 off the ball, and then the secondary backed off was nauseating.  

 

You have to try and do SOMETHING to change things up.  Stack the box.  Put an 8th and 9th guy at the LOS.  Challenge the receivers at the line. Do SOMETHING. Blitz.  Whatever. 

 

We did nothing, hoping that if we played disciplined football, we could stop them.  

 

And we never did.  

 

It was an absolutely putrid display of coaching and playing.  

 

BIG THEME #3: This year is toast, but next year we might be able to toast (more victories!)!

 

I actually like a lot of parts of the team.  I think they have more depth than they have in a really long time, and a lot of that depth is getting opportunities to play.

 

The big question is, of course, going to be QB.  Because no matter what Ron says, there is absolutely no way he's rolling into year 3 with TH as the long-term starter.  He might be the interim if they draft a guy who's not ready to start day 1, but that's it.  So, we'll see there.

But I think they do have a good group of guys they can build around.  They need to get some guys healthy, and they need to fill some holes.

 

They never give up, and they fight to the end, and I like that.  I think that shows Ron's "culture change" is taking hold.

 

They just played this game at such a disadvantage due to injury and COVID, they really had no shot.  

 

But I think there are more building blocks here than there have been in a long, long time.  

 

BIG THEME #4: I'm so jealous of the Eagles home field advantage

 

I remember going to RFK in the 80's as a kid.  It was nuts.  It was a better environment than the Eagles have at the Linc.  And honestly, I don't know if we're ever going to get it back here.  And yeah, I know it's because of Snyder.  

 

Somewhere during the middle of the game, when Gilbert threw a bad pass, some poster started yelling at Snyder.  I mean, I get the angst, but the narrative is now so ingrained that he is literally at fault for absolutely everything bad in the world, I don't see any way to re-build the fanbase as long as he's here.  And I don't think he's going anywhere. For the last 20 years, as a fan in this area, you could not escape constant negative reporting about Snyder. 

 

Now, the easiest way to turn off the spigot of the negative press is to STOP ****ING SCREWING UP AND GIVING PEOPLE THINGS TO WRITE/REPORT.  I mean, there's no question that the media in general have had it out for Snyder since he bought the team.  But he KEEPS giving them reasons to write about how much of a schmuck he is.  Even yesterday with the damn benches.  There's always something with him.  He is being complicit in his own demise.  The problem is, it ISN'T his demise.  It's the team's demise.  He's fine.  He's a billionaire, and he's not going anywhere.  So the team suffers, the fans (those of us who are left) suffer, but he doesn't.  

 

Even if the team starts to win, I'm not sure it will change. Maybe several deep playoff runs and evidence he's not really interfering in football ops?  I dunno.  I almost doubt it.  Unless they attract new fans.  The old ones are gone, and so ingraned in their hatred at this point, I don't think they're ever coming back.  

 

Iit honestly makes me sad that our team, who are (to coin a Gibbs phrase) fighting their guts out, have to play 17 away games a year through no fault of their own.  It makes it harder to attract players, harder to attract coaches, and harder to attract fans.

 

Ron's a good guy.  I think we have a classy football team in general.  I think they are improving.  

 

They will play the final game at FedEx, which will mean nothing to them, most likely, in front of 55,000 Eagles fans.  

 

It's just disheartening and sad.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

On the he looked gassed part.  My thoughts here not Keim.   2 things that might have contributed to it.  1.  COVID.  i know these guys are athletes but still it can take its toll.  I know some people who got COVID and it took them awhile to feel 100%.  2.  We had like a spell of 5 drives in a row that was 3 and out or close enough to that.  That would add obviously to a player getting worn down. 

3. All of the above. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

@Voice_of_Reason I’d like to think that with a couple of seasons of a 6-2 or better start to the season (or if they’re 8-4 by December for a couple of seasons) that people will feel like that’s a reason to come out to games again. 
 

i hope that will get the fan base back again. Maybe it won’t. I dont know. But i HOPE it will. 

[NoCalMike]

The defense hasn't been able to stop outside runs going back to last season, even when rankings-wise they were one of the best defenses in the league.  That likely isn't going to change until they upgrade the linebacker position significantly. How many run plays have we seen where the run is initially supposed to go up the middle but there is no where to go so the RB just casually runs sideways until they run around the corner?  I suppose some of the blame can go on the D-line for not shedding the blocks in the first place, but the way the D-line initially plugs where the run is designed to go should be giving time for the linebackers and even a safety to get up there to contain the edge, but no one ever seems able to do it.   The Eagles being one of the better rushing offenses in the league were able to exploit this over and over where a lot of other opponents might only be able to exploit it a few times a game because they themselves might not be a very good rushing team. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by NoCalMike

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[purbeast]

I did notice how very few burgundy jerseys you saw in the crowd every time they panned to the crowd shots and how much green there was.  It's a night/day difference compared to what you see at Fedex.

[hail2skins]

39 minutes ago, purbeast said:

I did notice how very few burgundy jerseys you saw in the crowd every time they panned to the crowd shots and how much green there was.  It's a night/day difference compared to what you see at Fedex.

Some people will no doubt cast blame on the game's delay to Tuesday, but it wouldn't have mattered.  VoR is correct in that you are going to see tons of Eagles fans at FedEx on January 2, and that's probably regardless of what happens in Dallas on Sunday night.