The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Not to be a smartass, but that's 3.   

 

What's the 4th? Or did you mean 3?

Was thinking  4 😀

 

4.  Making tiight window throws 

Edited March 24 by Skinsinparadise

[skinny21]

I found the VR stuff in that Daniels article pretty fascinating.  Seems like a tool that could have pretty huge implications in terms of development.  Heck, just the ability to use that for guys that aren’t getting many reps - backups or young 3rd stringers - could be a game changer.  The potential to use it for measuring processing speed, or the ability to identify defenses has to be pretty attractive as well, though I presume it’ll take some time/work to get it to that point?

[Warhead36]

I wont kill Peters for whiffing on Lance. Everyone has misses, especially at QB. But hes got an eye for talent and has good process. Beyond that, what more can you ask for?

 

Reg. a QB sitting, no. Maye and Daniels are both good enough to start day 1 and need live game reps to improve. This isnt a Mahomes sitting behind Alex Smith situation. Mariota is nowhere near Alex Smith.

[mistertim]

6 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I found the VR stuff in that Daniels article pretty fascinating.  Seems like a tool that could have pretty huge implications in terms of development.  Heck, just the ability to use that for guys that aren’t getting many reps - backups or young 3rd stringers - could be a game changer.  The potential to use it for measuring processing speed, or the ability to identify defenses has to be pretty attractive as well, though I presume it’ll take some time/work to get it to that point?

 

I think fast processing and pattern matching can be improved, but you also need a baseline decent amount in order to be really good at something hard.

 

Take bullet chess for example (where you have only 3 minutes for all of your moves in a game so you generally have to make each move within a few seconds). You can definitely practice it and improve your bullet game some. But in order to be really good at it, IMO you do need a certain baseline processing and pattern matching speed.

[CommanderInTheRye]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Was thonking 4 😀

 

4.  Making tiight window throws 

 

 

You mean you didn't make the trek to Tibet?

 

Damn, you youngsters disappoint me with your general lack of gumption and overall sticktuitiveness.

 

Why in my day we'd wake up early befire dawn climb up that doggone Himilayan mountain meet with the guru then get back home to a warm fire in time for a plate of grannies raspberry hot cakes before we had to start milking the heffers. 😆

 

 

Edited March 24 by CommanderInTheRye

[Est.1974]

25 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Reg. a QB sitting, no. Maye and Daniels are both good enough to start day 1 and need live game reps to improve. 

Daniels is, whether Maye is hasn’t really been established yet.

[skinny21]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I wont kill Peters for whiffing on Lance. Everyone has misses, especially at QB. But hes got an eye for talent and has good process. Beyond that, what more can you ask for?

Yeah, the process is the big thing for me.

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

 

Reg. a QB sitting, no. Maye and Daniels are both good enough to start day 1 and need live game reps to improve. This isnt a Mahomes sitting behind Alex Smith situation. Mariota is nowhere near Alex Smith.

I generally agree, though I’d push back a little on the needing live game reps to improve.  In some ways, I think that’s absolutely the case (Ie some things only really improve with live play).  However, Howell, for example, seemingly made big strides his first year on his footwork/mechanics. 

 

For me personally, I wouldn’t mind them riding the bench for a bit just to 1) get a chance to see a vet perform, and 2) give them a bit more time to get comfortable in the offense.  I’d think it also gives the rookie more time regarding some of the smaller things - to build chemistry and relationships, get used to the speed of the game, etc.  Essentially, the goal would be reducing/minimizing the number of items on their plate, at least to some extent.

I tend to believe it also gives the team more time to get used to the system, including giving the oline more time to gel/develop.  

 

Almost certainly a moot point though because, as you say, they’re going to start day 1.  

 

I will say that the above isn’t my default preference, it depends on your evaluation of the guy once you get him in-house.  I’d also put a lot of weight on coaches crafting a plan around the qb, vs (what I view as) the more traditional ‘throw a lot at them and see what they can handle’ tendency.

 

Of course, in my scenario you then have to give the vet plenty of reps (offseason and in-season), which can limit your rookie’s snaps (ergo, their development)… one of the main reasons I’m a fan of uptempo practices and the large uptick in available reps that comes with that practice style.

[skinny21]

31 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think fast processing and pattern matching can be improved, but you also need a baseline decent amount in order to be really good at something hard.

 

Take bullet chess for example (where you have only 3 minutes for all of your moves in a game so you generally have to make each move within a few seconds). You can definitely practice it and improve your bullet game some. But in order to be really good at it, IMO you do need a certain baseline processing and pattern matching speed.

This makes sense of course.  Though I’m tempted to say that anyone playing college qb has to have a baseline of processing speed.  To be clear though, I was suggesting more so the potential for it to rate processing speed, not (necessarily) as much in terms of improving processing speed.  The development angle I mentioned was more about getting (VR) reps, particularly w/in the offense and against various defenses.

[MartinC]

50 minutes ago, cakmoney61 said:

My brain has tilted from hearing it all.  I hear people talk with such assurance and authority yet they have opposing viewpoints.  What scares me is both viewpoints being right on why the other shouldn't be selected and neither QB ends up being the answer.

 

The one thing I do know is Washington has to come out of this draft with a QB wherever they select him.  It's possible they trade down and select one of the QB's no one is even talking about.  Anything is possible although I don't think that will happen.  I'm sure it will be either Maye or Daniels at pick #2. 

 

And my response will be, "Let's gooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!" as I hope for the best.🙏 

It’s probably true that there is more chance that both Maye and Daniels bust than that either guy turns into a top 5 type NFL QB. 

 

Look at the 21 draft class. Lawrence, Wilson, Lance, Fields and Jones. Only Lawrence is starting and still with the team that drafted him - and he’s been no better than a top 15 ish type QB.

 

Everyone else is looking like a bust (or IS a bust).

 

But if you don’t have a franchise type QB you have to shoot your shot. And then keep shooting until you hit.

[bird_1972]

2 hours ago, mac8887 said:

The more I think about it, the more I’m willing to see Mariota get the start at the beginning of the year, especially if the picks Maye or McCarthy, they are both really young.

 

On top of that, with the recent turnarounds that Baker and Geno had, maybe Mariota can do something similar, highly unlikely I admit, but he was drafted in the 1st round, so he does have the pedigree.

 

What I really would hate to see is our young qb forced into competition before he is ready, with an o line that is unable to protect him. We have seen time and time again what happens to young QBs that take a lot of sacks. We even have a term for it, “Ramseyed”.

 

Someone like Drake that has all the potential in the world, you want to harness that potential. Right now his feet lead him into the pressure quite often. That, in combination with a bad o line could be detrimental to him reaching his potential. I would hope they make sure to get one of those issues fixed before they throw him into the fire.

 

I'm more than OK with this. Even the most elite of QBs have benefitted from sitting for at least a part of the season before being thrown into the fire. CJ Stroud is the exception, not the rule.

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, mac8887 said:

The more I think about it, the more I’m willing to see Mariota get the start at the beginning of the year, especially if the picks Maye or McCarthy, they are both really young.

 

On top of that, with the recent turnarounds that Baker and Geno had, maybe Mariota can do something similar, highly unlikely I admit, but he was drafted in the 1st round, so he does have the pedigree.

 

What I really would hate to see is our young qb forced into competition before he is ready, with an o line that is unable to protect him. We have seen time and time again what happens to young QBs that take a lot of sacks. We even have a term for it, “Ramseyed”.

 

Someone like Drake that has all the potential in the world, you want to harness that potential. Right now his feet lead him into the pressure quite often. That, in combination with a bad o line could be detrimental to him reaching his potential. I would hope they make sure to get one of those issues fixed before they throw him into the fire.

No right or wrong answer here. You learn with reps - but I can certainly see the logic of sitting someone. It might depend what we are able/unable to do at OT. 
 

I highly, highly doubt that we have the patience as a fan base though to sit through Mariota behind an iffy line for a season. It won’t be pretty. 

[mistertim]

44 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Daniels is, whether Maye is hasn’t really been established yet.

 

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

I wont kill Peters for whiffing on Lance. Everyone has misses, especially at QB. But hes got an eye for talent and has good process. Beyond that, what more can you ask for?

 

Reg. a QB sitting, no. Maye and Daniels are both good enough to start day 1 and need live game reps to improve. This isnt a Mahomes sitting behind Alex Smith situation. Mariota is nowhere near Alex Smith.

 

He wasn't running that show.  He was, at best, #3 on the totem pole for that decision.  That's why I'm not killing him for SF's bad OL drafting either, although I'm a little concerned.

 

I'm also not sure Lance was even a miss, because I don't believe you can have a definitive take on a QB after four starts and 250 snaps.  Lance never had a real shot and nobody knows what he really is.

 

What happened to Lance is that he got hurt immediately and Brock Purdy stole his job by being so shockingly good.  SF changed gears to their initial hedge very quickly, because when you've got two QBs with no clear long term hierarchy you actually have no QB.

 

It was a messy situation that cost SF dearly, and speaks to how that organization is reckless and wastes first round picks.  But they won the lottery with a seventh round comp pick so it all worked out for them.

[FootballZombie]

5 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

He wasn't running that show.  He was, at best, #3 on the totem pole for that decision.  That's why I'm not killing him for SF's bad OL drafting either, although I'm a little concerned.

 

About where I sit.

If your trading a bunch of draft capital for a guy what an underling thinks is practically irrelevant.

 

Either the HC loved Lance, the head guy making the pics loved Lance, or the owner loved Lance. That is the only thing that could possibly pull the lever on a move that big.

[Dah-Dee]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Another things to remember about drafnicks, twitter analysts, etc...is that their goal is not necessarily to be accurate. It's to get clicks and views and make money. And they can do that by making noise, being contrarian, and giving unpopular opinions.

 

This is why I say that, for the most part, I treat them as entertainment with a slight sprinkle of actual football analysis. 

 

I think this is a really important point, especially in this 'dead zone' between the combine and the draft, particularly when most of the top prospects have had no private workouts with teams, and the top QB prospects haven't even all had their pro days yet. 

 

It's bizarre to read the last couple of weeks that 'Drake Maye has fallen behind Daniels' - exactly how the hell is that supposed to have happened... when nothing is happening?! It's just what mistertim said - media making noise to get clicks for ad dollars. Really really annoying. 

 

If anything, I would have expected in a more rational world to see the opposite - for example, that due to Williams' meh pro day Maye has closed the gap there. Or that with teams using this time to dig into film and analytics, Maye has clearly pulled *ahead* of Daniels due to the issues that pop up with JD once teams get past the gloss of his exciting Heisman season, versus the impressive things that stand out about Maye (e.g., movement in the pocket, extending plays) once teams get past the noise of a so-so season littered with generally poor WR play and bad OL performance.

[dswerdlw]

Since it's unlikely that we'll be sitting either Maye or Daniels behind Mariotta, I'm hoping for a stout defense (anchored by Wagner, Luvu, and our tackles) and a run heavy offense to shelter our young o-line (which should include at least one rookie tackle) and our rookie QB.

[Chump Bailey]

14 minutes ago, dswerdlw said:

Since it's unlikely that we'll be sitting either Maye or Daniels behind Mariotta, I'm hoping for a stout defense (anchored by Wagner, Luvu, and our tackles) and a run heavy offense to shelter our young o-line (which should include at least one rookie tackle) and our rookie QB.

 

That's the direction we're certainly heading thus far. I've never been a proponent of sitting a QB whether there's actual merit in doing so or not. The one universal theme amongst rookies when they attempt to explain the differences between college and pro ball is the speed of the game. I can't see how sitting would be much help in that arena. 

Edited March 24 by Chump Bailey

[mistertim]

9 minutes ago, Dah-Dee said:

 

I think this is a really important point, especially in this 'dead zone' between the combine and the draft, particularly when most of the top prospects have had no private workouts with teams, and the top QB prospects haven't even all had their pro days yet. 

 

It's bizarre to read the last couple of weeks that 'Drake Maye has fallen behind Daniels' - exactly how the hell is that supposed to have happened... when nothing is happening?! It's just what mistertim said - media making noise to get clicks for ad dollars. Really really annoying. 

 

If anything, I would have expected in a more rational world to see the opposite - for example, that due to Williams' meh pro day Maye has closed the gap there. Or that with teams using this time to dig into film and analytics, Maye has clearly pulled *ahead* of Daniels due to the issues that pop up with JD once teams get past the gloss of his exciting Heisman season, versus the impressive things that stand out about Maye (e.g., movement in the pocket, extending plays) once teams get past the noise of a so-so season littered with generally poor WR play and bad OL performance.

 

Good points, and there are also a couple of things to keep in mind too.

 

1) It's certainly possible that actual NFL team scouts have gone much more in the direction of Maye recently. But they're certainly not telling anyone, so the drafnicks have to basically make **** up at this point.

 

2) Ultra athletic running QBs almost always fly up the mock draft boards and get the most buzz about overtaking the other prospects around this time of draft season. Probably no different with Daniels. Sometimes it ends up actually going that way (Anthony Richardson), sometimes it doesn't (Malik Willis).

[Anselmheifer]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

I found the VR stuff in that Daniels article pretty fascinating.  Seems like a tool that could have pretty huge implications in terms of development.  Heck, just the ability to use that for guys that aren’t getting many reps - backups or young 3rd stringers - could be a game changer.  The potential to use it for measuring processing speed, or the ability to identify defenses has to be pretty attractive as well, though I presume it’ll take some time/work to get it to that point?

aI think Josh Allen also trained with VR after his rookie year to improve his game. 

[cakmoney61]

43 minutes ago, MartinC said:

No right or wrong answer here. You learn with reps - but I can certainly see the logic of sitting someone. It might depend what we are able/unable to do at OT. 
 

I highly, highly doubt that we have the patience as a fan base though to sit through Mariota behind an iffy line for a season. It won’t be pretty. 

This is why we have a front office and coaches.  They get paid to make these decisions.  If whoever they draft has to sit a year, then he sits a year.  If I was 92 years old, I would probably want to see him play ASAP.  But I'm 62 so I can wait a year.

[KDawg]

Just a point I want to touch on. Earlier in the thread it was said, “Maye and Daniels are good enough to start day 1 and will not sit”.

 

Good enough and ready are two entirely different animals. 
 

Do they know the playbook? Do they understand the concepts and the way their receivers think? Are they adjusting to the speed? Their individual ability is just part of the equation on if a rookie should start on day one. There is a lot that goes into it.

 

it’s likely they both start for whatever teams they wind up on… but let’s make sure we realize that “good enough” and “ready” are different things.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Nobody is sitting behind Mariota. Just pure silliness. 
 

It’s also weird when people wanna bend over backwards to say Peters had nothing to do with drafting Lance. It feels like we’re looking for ways to validate Peters’ ability by saying “he was responsible for all the good players but not the bad ones”.

 

It doesn’t matter. Every GM has hits and misses. The thing that (I hope) Peters brings is a cohesive vision and a plan to execute that vision. Scheme fit and personnel decisions have been so disconnected here since forever. 
 

I don’t care what Peters’ role was in SF. He’s calling the shots here and will be responsible for the results. Good or bad. I’m betting on good. 

[redskinss]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

What happened to Lance is that he got hurt immediately and Brock Purdy stole his job by being so shockingly good.  SF changed gears to their initial hedge very quickly, because when you've got two QBs with no clear long term hierarchy you actually have no QB.

 

True but it doesn't explain why he lost the backup role to Sam darnold.

That to me was far more damning than being benched for purdy who had shown he could run Shanahans system the way he wanted it run.

[Warhead36]

It would make sense that Daniels would shoot up more during the last few months. This is when coaches start to get involved and Daniels is the type of guy that coaches would like more than scouts/FO types. He's an athletic run first QB that is a pain in the butt to gameplan against, so its reasonable for coaches to see that and say "I WANT THAT", not worrying about things like long term health or potential because typically coaches are more short sighted.

 

Even Dan Quinn described Daniels as "game changer". You don't really see game changer on the surface with Maye, but scouts/personnel people will look at his tools, dig into the context(bad talent around him)and say "in 2-3 years this kid could be an All Pro".

43 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

 

 

It doesn’t matter. Every GM has hits and misses. The thing that (I hope) Peters brings is a cohesive vision and a plan to execute that vision. Scheme fit and personnel decisions have been so disconnected here since forever. 
 

 

Yep this is the #1 thing that ties successful organizations together. Every team will miss from time to time. As great as the Ravens are for example, even they drafted Kyle Boller. Steelers whiffed bad on Kenny Pickett. Eagles took Jaelen Raegor round 1. List goes on and on.

Regarding the whether Mariota or the rookie should start stuff, I'm basing it off the assumption that Mariota is Mariota. In other words, he plays at the same level he's been at for most of his career. Obviously if he comes into camp and is just lighting it up and has appeared to hit a late career resurgence(think Geno Smith), and the rook looks like a rook, then you play Mariota. But I'm assuming it'll be close-ish, in which case you play the rookie and let him get his feet wet.

 

Maye is used to playing behind crappy protection and receivers who don't get open. He can already call pre snap protections(although I'm guessing Biadasz will take that duty at least early on). He needs live reps to get a feel for the speed of the defense, what kinda throws he can get away with, etc. And Daniels's super athleticism/mobility and already advanced age means you absolutely cannot waste his window at all, he needs to start day 1 to take advantage of his gifts. Can easily run a 2012 RG3 offense with him and light up the scoreboard.

[wit33]

21 hours ago, bh32 said:

Washington is not gonna draft Daniels..the guy is almost 24 years old and is more than likely will weigh in at 200lbs if he is lucky..huge red flag with him not getting weighed or measured.

 

Get prepared for the rise of older quarterbacks becoming more prevalent, thanks to the shifts happening in college football with the transfer portal and NIL. While it might not become the standard, many players will begin to break out in their fourth and fifth years of college after initially playing for weaker programs.

 

We're witnessing just the early stages of this trend, but as the masses adapt, it's likely to become a popular topic in the media in the coming years.

 

4 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

If your concern is not having a good enough OL to protect a young QB, you better hope that if the pick is Daniels or McCarthy (we aren't picking McCarthy at 2) that they sit for a year while we shore up the OL, because they both had excellent OLs in college and aren't going to be used to the pressure most likely, Maye had a **** OL in college so he's kinda used to running for his life within a couple seconds of the snap.

 

An lol. Dude, Mariota is a scrub. 100% pure backup material. The only reason he's here is to be a mentor to the guy we draft.

 

 

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Daniels had a very good OL at LSU. Not AS good as Michigan but quite good. I remember plenty of times watching his cutups where he's just sitting back there for like 6 seconds.

 

And McCarthy weighed in at 219lbs. 

 

And sure, Daniels has nice mechanics, but when he's pressured he lowers his eyes and looks to run more than almost any other college QB in the last 5 years. And in the NFL that could quite possibly spell disaster. 

 

So no, Daniels is not more ready than the other two unless you're fine with him tucking and running at the first sign of pressure and likely getting pancaked and eventually injured. Especially when you also consider how little his tape shows NFL type 2nd level tight window and anticipation throws. You talking about his mechanics is irrelevant to the actual problems with his game.

 

This whole "Daniels is ready day one" thing is just utterly weird and literally ignores all of the problems in his game.

 

Throughout history, elite dual-threat quarterbacks have consistently elevated the performance of their offensive lines in the NFL. This impact extends beyond just passing, as they also significantly influence the effectiveness of the run game. Offensive linemen thrive on running the football and pass blocking in favorable situations.

 

An offense built around a dual-threat quarterback, especially in an RPO system, where the quarterback can both run and make accurate throws, even at a below-average level, can start impacting wins from day one.
 

I'm not suggesting that this approach is foolproof or that there isn't a ceiling for this type of quarterback if they fail to continue developing. However, if Daniel's were the pick, on day one, I would anticipate Washington to emerge as a top 5 rushing offense, ranking within the top 5-10 in time of possession, and be in the top 10 for turnover differential. 
 

He also could get injured week one. Roll the dice for the immediate high floor a elite ceiling potential. 

 

2 hours ago, cakmoney61 said:

My brain has tilted from hearing it all.  I hear people talk with such assurance and authority yet they have opposing viewpoints.  What scares me is both viewpoints being right on why the other shouldn't be selected and neither QB ends up being the answer.

 

The one thing I do know is Washington has to come out of this draft with a QB wherever they select him.  It's possible they trade down and select one of the QB's no one is even talking about.  Anything is possible although I don't think that will happen.  I'm sure it will be either Maye or Daniels at pick #2. 

 

And my response will be, "Let's gooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!" as I hope for the best.🙏 

Those who support Daniel's genuinely care about your perspective and are open to welcoming those who are leaning 60-40 towards him. Join us on the Daniel's side, where we believe in the potential for success and growth.

 

35 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Just a point I want to touch on. Earlier in the thread it was said, “Maye and Daniels are good enough to start day 1 and will not sit”.

 

Good enough and ready are two entirely different animals. 
 

Do they know the playbook? Do they understand the concepts and the way their receivers think? Are they adjusting to the speed? Their individual ability is just part of the equation on if a rookie should start on day one. There is a lot that goes into it.

 

it’s likely they both start for whatever teams they wind up on… but let’s make sure we realize that “good enough” and “ready” are different things.

 

So, here's the game plan: We're gonna mix it up with screens, RPOs, and play action, riding on Daniel's athleticism, especially early on. But when stuck in 3rd and long situations, just gonna have to trust Daniel to pull a rabbit out of the hat until he gets his mojo going. It's all about sticking to the plan, rolling with the punches, and adjusting as Daniel hones his skills.

 

And hey, in year one, it’s all about getting a wild card spot. All in for the wild card… that’s my expectation.