The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[CjSuAvE22]

2 hours ago, mojo said:

I would not argue with Armstrong from UVA. How he’s not in the Heisman race is beyond me. All he does is throw for 400 every week.  He can run as well.

I like him a lot too. I would love it if we drafted him

[Wyvern]

@SIP, when you check out more Malik Willis games, check on how often his passing success relies on his first read getting open and getting open quickly.  From what I saw, Willis' passing successes ware often a quickly-timed pass to his first read, which he'd been concentrating on, almost exclusively.  And if it was a longer-developing pattern, he tends to stay looking at his "first-look" receiver, while that target is trying to get open.

 

Usually Willis immediately dials in to his first read and doesn't seem to look to other receivers (unless it was a some quick pre-planned look at a non-primary receiver in the first 1/2 second during the snap to move off the safety from his actual primary target)  He tends to stay with his primary read and if that primary read doesn't work out, then Malik usually goes into scramble mode, most times not looking/attempting a throw, once he's tucked the ball for running.  (I saw some exceptions, but generally the new target was in his field of view of where Malik was running. )

 

From what I saw, he doesn't seem to go through much of a progression, and I saw a lot of instances where his receivers on the other side of the field were open, even before he tucks the ball and starts to use his legs instead of his arm.

 

I'm wondering if Willis can make the transition to reading the full field, and going through progressions at NFL game speed. He'll need those skills (plus more touch and accuracy) to have an NFL-level of passing ability to complement his scrambling ability.   (Even with today's rules favoring the running QB, the chance of injury to legs is still high and Malik takes a lot of hits.)

Edited October 31, 2021 by Wyvern

[CjSuAvE22]

7 hours ago, Wyvern said:

 

 

I'm wondering if Willis can make the transition to reading the full field, and going through progressions at NFL game speed. He'll need those skills (plus more touch and accuracy) to have an NFL-level of passing ability to complement his scrambling ability.   (Even with today's rules favoring the running QB, the chance of injury to legs is still high and Malik takes a lot of hits.)

Im high doubtful unless hes a 3rd string to start for about a couple years if he gets drafted to a team that starts him right away he will be a bust. 

[Renegade7]

JP sayin we should trade for Watson, wasn't expecting that.  BMitch and Torry tryin to talk him out of it.  They are right, it can get worse...

[frontline205]

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

JP sayin we should trade for Watson, wasn't expecting that.  BMitch and Torry tryin to talk him out of it.  They are right, it can get worse...

I'm with JP

 

[KillBill26]

I am a BPA guy, but since we are looking at a top 10 pick, I think we are desperate enough for a qb that we take the guy we like the best out of corral, strong, Pickett, whoever; and don't worry about whether it's a reach or not.  We need to take a chance.  A solution via free agency isn't walking through that door, and if we took bpa such as stingley in the 1st, we would have watered down options by the time we pick again.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

To take the moral high ground re Watson is foolish imo. If you can get him discounted, assuming he would come here, you have got to do it. Sucks we haven’t even sniffed around.
I trade whatever it takes for Watson, and let the legal and criminal proceedings play out.  If we win, no one will care what it took or how he’s a creep. If it blows up in our face, well, have you witnessed the last 20 years of this franchise?

[Skinsinparadise]

13 hours ago, Wyvern said:

@SIP, when you check out more Malik Willis games, check on how often his passing success relies on his first read getting open and getting open quickly.  From what I saw, Willis' passing successes ware often a quickly-timed pass to his first read, which he'd been concentrating on, almost exclusively.  And if it was a longer-developing pattern, he tends to stay looking at his "first-look" receiver, while that target is trying to get open.

 

Usually Willis immediately dials in to his first read and doesn't seem to look to other receivers (unless it was a some quick pre-planned look at a non-primary receiver in the first 1/2 second during the snap to move off the safety from his actual primary target)  He tends to stay with his primary read and if that primary read doesn't work out, then Malik usually goes into scramble mode, most times not looking/attempting a throw, once he's tucked the ball for running.  (I saw some exceptions, but generally the new target was in his field of view of where Malik was running. )

 

From what I saw, he doesn't seem to go through much of a progression, and I saw a lot of instances where his receivers on the other side of the field were open, even before he tucks the ball and starts to use his legs instead of his arm.

 

I'm wondering if Willis can make the transition to reading the full field, and going through progressions at NFL game speed. He'll need those skills (plus more touch and accuracy) to have an NFL-level of passing ability to complement his scrambling ability.   (Even with today's rules favoring the running QB, the chance of injury to legs is still high and Malik takes a lot of hits.)

 

Thanks for the assessment.  Just for me, I got to do it on my own assessement to be confident in my opinion about a QB.  I am not saying just by diving in hard, I end up always right.  I've gotten some good ones on the money and have had some misses like anyone else who gives it a shot.   

 

Among other things, I can recall being mocked by some for liking Mac Jones.  And I am not faulting those people for having a different opinion.  Again, you win some and you lose some.  

 

And I appreciate any longish take on a player like you gave in your post.  It's interesting for me to read different takes.  Everyone's opinion here is obviously equally valid and interesting.  And I don't really keep score except for one thing -- that is, some people for my taste (not you) can get a bit over the top about mocking another person's take.  And if that person who mocked it, ends up wrong, I'll recall that and actually enjoy rubbing it back in some if they end up wrong.  . But just general disagreement to me is cool and is what makes the board interesting.

 

I am not even saying I disagree with any of the criticisms of Malik.  I've just watched one game.  But I try to watch at least 5 before landing on a take and I'll do it with Malik.  At a minimum, going purely based on things I've read from mock draft types, Malik is seen much more favorably than his critics here.  And JT Sullivan I have a lot of respect for.  He's done a lot of good work on QBs that I've watched so if he thinks he's a special runner and has special arm talent -- my instinct is there is something to it versus him offering a clown opinion.  Not saying you are saying otherwise.  Just explaining my mindset. 😀

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[skinsfan93]

Not sure if he was mentioned but I would love to go after Drew Lock. Obviously Denver is sticking w Bridgewater and he is signed for a couple more years 8 believe. Lock is still on his rookie deal and Elway is not trade shy.  It might not take too much draft capital especially if we add a Sweat or Payne as part of the trade. 

[MrJL]

1 hour ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

To take the moral high ground re Watson is foolish imo. If you can get him discounted, assuming he would come here, you have got to do it. Sucks we haven’t even sniffed around.
I trade whatever it takes for Watson, and let the legal and criminal proceedings play out.  If we win, no one will care what it took or how he’s a creep. If it blows up in our face, well, have you witnessed the last 20 years of this franchise?

 

you need to look at our history with the league

 

I have no problem saying that if we acquire him the NFL decides the accusations against him have gone far enough to merit a suspension

 

hell with it... as long as we go heavy at LB in free agency I'll just go all in.  Spend all our draft capital this year at QB.  I've seen people suggest it.  Whether it's seven QBs, or trading up or down whatever, just go for it

[Wyvern]

Thanks SIP.  I had been following JT Sullivan's evaluations for a while now. I enjoy his takes on the various QBs, especially after he's done several games worth of analysis on a QB's performances.

 

to be clear, I wasn't really disputing your assessment, rather I was pointing out something you might be interested in also checking on, when you get to see more of Malik Willis' game films.  Out of the limited set of Willis' clips I was able to see, I thought I saw a common theme that needed to be checked out by those willing to put the time in.  I'm not certain my initial impression will be proven to be accurate, but it's something I felt like sharing with anyone interested.

 

Lastly, I don't believe in running down someone's opinion because it doesn't align with my views, nor get into long protracted dialogue about why I'm right and they're wrong. 

 

Occasionally, I give a follow-up post to explain or clarify something behind my first post, but that's about the extent of what I'll do in response.

 

PS:  I always enjoy your posts, and find they provide me a lot of useful food for thought.  Please keep them coming.

[Skinsinparadise]

47 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

 

Lastly, I don't believe in running down someone's opinion because it doesn't align with my views, nor get into long protracted dialogue about why I'm right and they're wrong. 

 

Occasionally, I give a follow-up post to explain or clarify something behind my first post, but that's about the extent of what I'll do in response.

 

PS:  I always enjoy your posts, and find they provide me a lot of useful food for thought.  Please keep them coming.

 

Thanks.  And i follow and appreciate your point about Willis. 

 

Most who debate players are cordial.  Some are really definitive about their takes which I actually enjoy when they explain their rationale behind it.   But there are some who can be definitive about someone else being wrong and while that doesn't bother me in real time either -- I will recall some of those posts at a later date if they end up wrong and sometimes give some ribbing back to those people, that's all.   

 

College QBs are so hard for even professional scouts to figure out, let alone lay people like us,  so I think we all deserve a break if we are right or wrong about these guys.   For me anyone who is willing to give it a try with a detailed take is a winner in my book whether I agree with their take or not.  Because IMO to do it right it take some time and effort to do it.    

 

My effort to doing it has been to watch 5 games and look for certain patterns which I explained in some detail on the draft thread.  For Willis I am not there yet.  The only QB I am there on as to being confident in my own opinion is Corral.  I spent enough time on him where I think I have the best handle I can get on him. 

[Skinsinparadise]

I agree Rivera's bet on holding off on Qb doesn't look hot.  But he did swing for Stafford.  I'll give him a break for now.  but he needs to get it right this off season. 

Had Rivera been standing outside the stadium’s south end about two hours before the game, he would have seen a party celebrating the time another team in a similar situation took a gamble and won a Super Bowl. The party was for Peyton Manning, he of 71,940 passing yards, two Super Bowl titles and five MVPs, who was about to be honored with his own stone pillar in a plaza outside the stadium where the franchise’s most important people are honored.

It was designed to be a coronation, but it might also be the best recent example of a team taking a chance on a broken-down quarterback in the belief he could be the one to inspire a desperate franchise.

 

Manning smiled. He waved. He pulled the orange cord that held the shroud in place. The crowd roared. Few of them likely remembered how unlikely this all seemed on the day in March 2012 that Manning called Broncos president John Elway and said he wanted to come to Denver.

What does it take to find a franchise quarterback? One who can win big and bring greatness and Super Bowls? Sometimes it’s hope and belief and the guts to try something risky.

 

The Broncos had won the AFC West in 2011 behind a dominating defense and an offense rebuilt midseason to accommodate the unique (and limited) skills of quarterback Tim Tebow. Though Denver had won a playoff game that year, it seemed more of a miraculous achievement — with a limited quarterback who was an Internet sensation but far from the kind of player who could take Denver to the places Elway had during his Hall of Fame career as the team’s quarterback in the 1980s and 1990s.

 

Elway wanted someone who could take the Broncos to the Super Bowl. He wanted a star. He wanted a leader.

As Manning would point out at his ceremony Sunday, he was hardly a certainty for teams in the spring of 2012. He had missed the 2011 season following neck and spinal fusion surgeries. His recovery was slow.

“At the time we didn’t know if he was ever going to play another down,” Manning’s father, Archie, said in an interview after Sunday’s ceremony. “I remember playing toss with him when he was starting to rehab from that shoulder. I mean, he couldn’t throw the ball 10 yards. I was thinking, ‘It’s been a good 14 years, and move on.’”

But Peyton Manning did come back. And everyone knows the rest.

 

...Despite a reputation built on gambling on fourth downs, Rivera has not yet made wild bets in constructing his team — especially at quarterback. He has chosen to be careful and deliberate, focusing on polishing his defense and adding offensive linemen and playmakers before identifying the quarterback who will be next.

 

“We liked a couple of guys,” he continued, “[But] we’re not going to mortgage the future, because if we put the pieces in place and find the guy, then we will feel better, rather than having to give up some of the capital that people wanted from us. I wasn’t going to give up some of the players people wanted. I wasn’t going to give up some of the draft picks people wanted.”

Not every gamble is going to turn out like Denver’s with Manning. But sometime soon, Riverboat Ron Rivera is going to have to make a bet on someone to be his franchise quarterback. In the meantime, what has already felt like a long season could get even bleaker.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[drowland]

1 hour ago, skinsfan93 said:

Not sure if he was mentioned but I would love to go after Drew Lock. Obviously Denver is sticking w Bridgewater and he is signed for a couple more years 8 believe. Lock is still on his rookie deal and Elway is not trade shy.  It might not take too much draft capital especially if we add a Sweat or Payne as part of the trade. 

 

I'm not against trading Sweat or Payne if it brings a QB in return, but for Drew Lock?!  Denver will also be looking for a QB this off-season because Bridgewater and Lock aren't good.  

[Idaho fan]

^ “I’m not going to mortgage the future”.  I always laugh when someone says this phrase about making a move to draft higher or bring in a big FA.  
 

I mean what future is anyone worried about mortgaging?  It’s been a minute since this team finished the season over .500.  The winning percentage of the past coaches since Marty are all below.500.  What future have they been worried about?

[skins island connection]

SIP,

 that was a nice write-up and all, but c'mon lets be realistic about it; Peyton Manning was barely a factor in his last SB trip.

It was the Denver defense that got em there, Peyton was barely better than Trent Dilfer in the playoffs and SB. 

Yes he was " Dilferish " in the SB 50 as well as playoffs, 2 postseason games and SB combined 539 yds passing, 2 TDs 1 int. Thats not worth giving up a bunch of 1st rnd picks, especially when the defense blows dog. 

 

[tmandoug1]

Trade Chase and Payne and a first for Watson....

[KDawg]

21 minutes ago, drowland said:

 

I'm not against trading Sweat or Payne if it brings a QB in return, but for Drew Lock?!  Denver will also be looking for a QB this off-season because Bridgewater and Lock aren't good.  

Everyone has opinions but it’s wild to see how much they differ. Some wouldn’t trade a third or a fourth for Tu’a but want to trade a pick + Payne for Lock. It’s really interesting to see the various thought processes.

 

9 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

SIP,

 that was a nice write-up and all, but c'mon lets be realistic about it; Peyton Manning was barely a factor in his last SB trip.

It was the Denver defense that got em there, Peyton was barely better than Trent Dilfer in the playoffs and SB. 

Yes he was " Dilferish " in the SB 50 as well as playoffs, 2 postseason games and SB combined 539 yds passing, 2 TDs 1 int. Thats not worth giving up a bunch of 1st rnd picks, especially when the defense blows dog. 

 

 

this downplays Manning’s value significantly. His leadership and intelligence alone absolutely helped that team win. That defense played with the confidence that they had Peyton Manning. Yes, he was shot. No, he wasn’t a threat and no, he didn’t do much. 
 

But sometimes having the guy is enough value to help guide you to wins.

2 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

Trade Chase and Payne and a first for Watson....

It sounds great, right?

 

Then realize if he is suspended for any lengthy amount of time you just gave away 3 first rounders. We got zero out of it but awful PR

Edited November 1, 2021 by KDawg

[tmandoug1]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Everyone has opinions but it’s wild to see how much they differ. Some wouldn’t trade a third or a fourth for Tu’a but want to trade a pick + Payne for Lock. It’s really interesting to see the various thought processes.

 

 

this downplays Manning’s value significantly. His leadership and intelligence alone absolutely helped that team win. That defense played with the confidence that they had Peyton Manning. Yes, he was shot. No, he wasn’t a threat and no, he didn’t do much. 
 

But sometimes having the guy is enough value to help guide you to wins.

It sounds great, right?

 

Then realize if he is suspended for any lengthy amount of time you just gave away 3 first rounders. We got zero out of it but awful PR

And? 

We are awful PR now.....and Chase and Payne are not playing like first round picks. Use the mirage before it fades....

[profusion]

8 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

And? 

We are awful PR now.....and Chase and Payne are not playing like first round picks. Use the mirage before it fades....

 

Oh, I guarantee they'll play like first-round picks if they ever move on from Ashburn. Meanwhile, we'd get a guy who'll end up in jail or some such.

Edited November 1, 2021 by profusion

[skins island connection]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

this downplays Manning’s value significantly. His leadership and intelligence alone absolutely helped that team win. That defense played with the confidence that they had Peyton Manning. Yes, he was shot. No, he wasn’t a threat and no, he didn’t do much. 
 

But sometimes having the guy is enough value to help guide you to wins.

 

 

 With all of the issues on this team, Tom Brady AND Rodgers together would have a difficult time even reaching the playoffs.

If the team was more stout, better, much better on defense, with a good set of WRs and a solid RB who doesn't cough up the ball when breathed on, then yes you are right, a proven QB CAN possibly win, but none of those qualities exist on this team right now. 

 

It also helps alot when the organization is solid and on the same page with each other. This entire organization needs someone at the HC level who isn't afraid to tell the Little big Man Snyder to **** off and stay outta the way. I honestly don't believe he cares about winning, just finding flashy shiny front page splatters to sell seats. 

[method man]

On 10/27/2021 at 11:12 PM, illone said:

 

wait, what?!

 

did you just suggest heine would mentor the incoming rookie?

 

mentor him in what?!

 

How to noodle arm throws and give yourself up before scoring?!

 

😩

 

Yes I did. His physical limitations do not equal his football IQ, work ethic and willingness to mentor

[Warhead36]

The idea of a vet QB being a mentor is pretty overblown.

[skinsdude]

27 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

Trade Chase and Payne and a first for Watson....

With our luck Watson would end up going to prison.

[KDawg]

6 hours ago, tmandoug1 said:

And? 

We are awful PR now.....and Chase and Payne are not playing like first round picks. Use the mirage before it fades....

And? You’d like to trade one of our best defensive players (Payne) and the guy with the highest upside on our team (Young) and a first rounder for a guy who could possibly never play a down?

 

 

6 hours ago, skins island connection said:

 

 With all of the issues on this team, Tom Brady AND Rodgers together would have a difficult time even reaching the playoffs.

If the team was more stout, better, much better on defense, with a good set of WRs and a solid RB who doesn't cough up the ball when breathed on, then yes you are right, a proven QB CAN possibly win, but none of those qualities exist on this team right now. 

 

It also helps alot when the organization is solid and on the same page with each other. This entire organization needs someone at the HC level who isn't afraid to tell the Little big Man Snyder to **** off and stay outta the way. I honestly don't believe he cares about winning, just finding flashy shiny front page splatters to sell seats. 

My post wasn’t about this team.